How many agree with this

[simonthezealot]

You know what? I have been suffering from allergies lately and my eyes are red and look like someone poked me in the eye. LOL

Have you tried praying?

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Have you tried praying?

For my allergies? No.

I am trying Claritan though. LOL

 

[TraderJack]

Says who?

Says God's Word.

 

[TraderJack]

Is the god of Islam and Roman Catholicism one and the same god?

I agree.

I mean, seriously, how many creator Gods do you think happen to exist?

Is there some other God that exists and that Muslims worship while we Christians worship another God??

Are we now back to henotheism?

It's not the words used that are of importance. It's the meanings poured into those words.

Lots of false religions acknowledge some sort of creator. Even New Agers, Wiccans, JWs, Mormons, etc do that.

But when we delve into what they mean when they describe that creator god, they are totally different from the God of the Holy Scriptures and historic Christian faith. Same goes for Islam.

Do you worhip the same creator god the New Agers, Wiccans, JWs and Mormons do as well?

 

[TraderJack]

Neither Christianity nor Islam can logically endorse the other religion’s distinctive claims and practices without denying its own.​

Much more needs to be discussed concerning Muslim and Christian relations in a religiously pluralistic world. However, we must conclude that despite their common monotheism, Islam and Christianity have very different views of God, worship, and mission. Therefore, it is unreasonable to claim that they worship the same God.​

- Source: Do Christians and Muslims Worship the Same God?

by Douglas Groothuis, TrueU.org​

Muslims themselves consider it blaphemy and an outrageous lie for someone to say they worship the same God as Christians do.

I'd like to see one of these confused people who think they do tell a devout Muslim that, and see how long it takes for that devout Muslim to slap them silly.
​

 

[TraderJack]

I totaly agree, but don't mention it 'cause part of this forum's agreement with Google is that we are not allowed to discuss the ads.
They probably know how vulnerable they are to parody, and if their clients see us howling, Google might get pinched in the wallet.

"Google might get pinched in the wallet."

Google might?

 

[TraderJack]

Are we now back to henotheism?

Looks like a proponent of politically correct relativism, postmodernist style.

 

[stumpjumper]

Looks like a proponent of politically correct relativism, postmodernist style.

No it's just common sense, actually.

We (Christians) are monotheists so we believe that only one God exists, right?

So, if someone is worshipping God, then they are worshipping the only God that actually exists unless you believe that more than one God exists.

Do you?

If so you are either a polytheist or a henotheist.

Now that doesn't mean that Islam may make incorrect statements about God but obviously some Christians do as well especially when you have two or more Christians saying things about God that contradict each other...

 

[simonthezealot]

So when I read this....
841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."

Is this not also going against the yoking of darkness and light as warned in Pauls letter to the Corinthians? I mean come on...Why not start marrying RC's with Muslims otherwise? Are we not the bride?
14(A)Do not be bound together with (B)unbelievers; for what (C)partnership have righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness?

 

[stumpjumper]

Do you worhip the same creator god the New Agers, Wiccans, JWs and Mormons do as well?

Of course.

There is only one creator God out there so obviously I worship the same God as those groups do we just do so in different ways and with different systematic theologies, statements, pronouncements, and practices...

 

[TraderJack]

It's also essential to keep in mind what this passage suggests. In a discussion over whether Islam and Christianity both worship the same god, we are discussing monotheists who take their inspiration from the Old Testament. But the Greeks to whom Paul was speaking were NOT monotheists. The unknown god was merely one of many to them.

Exactly, having a temple in their pantheon of gods to an "unknown god" was a way of hedging their bets and trying to cover all bases.

Therefore the conclusion that can be reached has nothing to do with different people worshipping Jehovah, but under different names. This passage can only be used to "prove" that ANY god or gods are equally OK, or if not this, that universal salvation is God's plan. But it doesn't bear upon whether Allah is the same as the God we worship.

That's right. Most Hindus will tell you that they believe in Jesus too, but to them, Jesus is just one of many gods.


When Jesus asked the disciples, "Who do people say that I am?", He was not looking for people to have some ambiguous meaning or include Him in a pantheon, or that He is equal to all the other creator gods out there.

No, He wanted a specific answer, which Peter gave.

God has revealed Himself in an unambiguous manner, and as Jesus said, those who worship Him truly, must worship in Spirit AND Truth.

Islam denies that Jesus IS the Truth, the Way and the Life. Islam describes a god that is not much different from Zeus.

And when political correctness tosses out the Truth in order to try to be friends with the world, then the salt has lost it's saltiness. The first Christians never would have compromised the Truth as we are seeing done concerning the claim that Islam worships the One True God of the Holy Scriptures and historic Christian faith.

 

[stumpjumper]

The first Christians never would have compromised the Truth as we are seeing done concerning the claim that Islam worships the One True God of the Holy Scriptures and historic Christian faith.

So what God do they worship?

Nobody is saying that they Islam is correct in all of it's pronouncements about God but unless you are going to wander into polytheism they ARE worshipping the only God that exists...

 

[mont974x4]

So what God do they worship?

Nobody is saying that they Islam is correct in all of it's pronouncements about God but unless you are going to wander into polytheism they ARE worshipping the only God that exists...

If someone worships the sun, and only the sun, since it's monotheistic does that mean they are worshipping God or a god?

 

[TraderJack]

No it's just common sense, actually.

We (Christians) are monotheists so we believe that only one God exists, right?

Simply believing is some sort of creator god does not equate to genuine worship of the True God.

So, if someone is worshipping God, then they are worshipping the only God that actually exists unless you believe that more than one God exists.

God makes it plain, that He is to be known specifically. He has a NAME, specifically, and is to be worshiped in Truth, not in some ambiguous manner as some creative force, but very specfically.

Do you say the same about JWs, Mormons or Wiccans who worship a creator?

Do you worship the same god as they do? Yes or no?

Now that doesn't mean that Islam may make incorrect statements about God

Islam does not just "make incorrect statements about God".

Islam describes an entirely differnent god from the God of the Holy Scriptures and historic Christian faith.

As a latecomer to this discussion, I assume you have missed the previous 3 times I have posted this, so here it is again.

Since you have missed the 3 times I've posted this already, here it is again.

JPII and Lumen Gentium both say that Roman Catholicism and Islam "adore"(ie-worship), "one and the same" god.

The Roman Catholic document: "Nostra Aetate" states:


Quote:

The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth, who has spoken to men.
Is the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ the same as Allah?




The Biblical doctrine on the Trinity is correctly expressed in the Nicene and Athanasian creeds:

Quote:​

We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is, seen and unseen. We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father…We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life…​

Quote:

Now the catholic faith is that we worship One God in Trinity and Trinity in Unity, neither confounding the Persons nor dividing the substance. For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, another of the Holy Spirit. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, is One, the Glory equal, the Majesty coeternal.​

The importance of the doctrine of the Deity of Christ cannot be overstated. Unless the Son is truly God and 'one with the Father', Christians would be idolaters, for we regard Jesus as our Lord and Saviour and gladly worship him. If Jesus were not God, we would be found trusting in a creature for our salvation. But we confess that Jesus is not merely another prophet, but the Son of God. The Jews in hid day understood well what he meant by that title: 'For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God' (John 10:33). They did not believe his claim to Deity and condemned him to death for blasphemy. But Christians understand his claim and believe him; we trust and worship the Son of God; we live and die for our Lord. For in Christ we know God in truth:

Quote:​

And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life (1 John 5:20, 21)​

The Son is the true God; any other god is an idol.

Islam vehemently rejects the doctrine of God as revealed in Holy Scriptures.


Islam denies the Trinity:

Quote:​

Certainly they disbelieve those who say: Surely Allah is the third (person) of the three; and there is no god but the one God, and if they desist not from what they say, a painful chastisement shall befall those among them who disbelieve (Sura 5:73).​

O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning Allah save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers, and say not 'Three' - Cease! (it is) better for you! - Allah is only One Allah. Far is it removed from His Transcendent Majesty that He should have a son (Sura 4:171).​

​

Islam denies the Father and the Son:

Quote:​

The Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them (Sura 9:29-30).​

Quote:

It does not befit GOD that He begets a son, be He glorified (Sura 19:35).​

Islam denies the Deity of Christ:

Quote:​

The Messiah, Jesus the son of Mary, was no more than God’s apostle (Sura 4).​

Quote:

They do blaspheme who say: Allah is Christ the son of Mary (Sura 5:72).​

And when Allah saith: O Jesus, son of Mary! Didst thou say unto mankind: Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah? he saith: Be glorified! It was not mine to utter that to which I had no right (Sura 5:116).​

In blasphemy indeed are those that say that Allah is Christ the son of Mary (Sura 5:17).​

Clearly then, the Quran denies:

1. The Trinity;​

2. The Sonship of Christ;​

3. The Deity of Christ.​

The conclusion is inescapeable: the god of Islam is not the same God of the Holy Scriptures. Islam describes a totally different god altogether.

Christians do not adore the same God as Muslims. Muslims are not merely ignorant of the Triune nature of God and the Deity of the Son: the Quran explicitly negates the doctrine of Christ as taught in the Bible. Rather than adoring God with us, Muslims pray to their god that he might destroy us because of our faith in Christ, the Son of God.
Quote:
'The Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them' (Sura 9:29-30)
How could Roman Catholics and Muslims worship the same God since Muslims deny the Trinity, the Sonship and the Deity of our Lord?

Quite frankly, the statement that Christians and Muslims adore the same God is utterly false. I won't speculate on the motives of the Roman Catholic hierarchy for declaring that Roman Catholicism and Islam worship "one and the same" god.

However, it should be evident to every Roman Catholic who has placed their confidence in the infallibility and unchangeableness of the Roman magisterium, that in fact the Vatican's teaching on this matter has changed and that it is both fallible and in grievious error bordering on blasphemy.

 

[stumpjumper]

If someone worships the sun, and only the sun, since it's monotheistic does that mean they are worshipping God or a god?

What do they mean by the sun? Are they worshiping it as most ancient polytheists did where they would believe that they gods they posit were not actually self-contained but were actually manifestations of something deeper.

In fact, in most polytheistic cultures you will find monotheism, to be quite honest. What many of the polytheistic cultures would say is that the different gods are actually manifestations of a deeper divinity.

So, if someone told me they worshipped the Sun God, I would have to ask them what they mean by that statement. When you get down to it you would likely find that they mean something much different than that the Sun which the 8 or 9 planets in our solar system orbit around is God.

So, yes, very likely they are worshipping the only God that exists.

 

[TraderJack]

So what God do they worship?

First, YOU answer the question posed several times and you avoid.

Do you also agree that JWs, Wiccans and Mormons also worship the same creator god as YOU DO?

 

[mont974x4]

What do they mean by the sun? Are they worshiping it as most ancient polytheists did where they would believe that they gods they posit were not actually self-contained but were actually manifestations of something deeper.

In fact, in most polytheistic cultures you will find monotheism, to be quite honest. What many of the polytheistic cultures would say is that the different gods are actually manifestations of a deeper divinity.

So, if someone told me they worshipped the Sun God, I would have to ask them what they mean by that statement. When you get down to it you would likely find that they mean something much different than that the Sun which the 8 or 9 planets in our solar system orbit around is God.

So, yes, very likely they are worshipping the only God that exists.

I did make a point of stating it as a monotheist belief system.


And no, if they worship the sun, or the god of islam or buddha or any other single thing, simply because it is one thing or one person does not mean they are worshipping the true God...they are following a god.

In fact, the idea that many professing Christians have of God it makes me serious wonder if they are following God or another single diety...god.


Simply put because a belief system is monotheistic doesn't make it automatic that they are worshipping God.

 

[stumpjumper]

Simply believing is some sort of creator god does not equate to genuine worship of the True God.

Why are you now adding the word "genuine" into your statement?

Shift goal-posts much? They probably don't worship genuinely or accurately according to you but then you would probably say the same about many other Christians and vice-versa.

God makes it plain, that He is to be known specifically. He has a NAME, specifically, and is to be worshiped in Truth, not in some ambiguous manner as some creative force, but very specfically.

So that just means that Muslims worship God in the wrong manner. However, many Messianic Jews would say they same of Presbyterians and Lutherans who don't worship God by his proper name and call Jesus: Jesus instead of Yesheva.

Do you say the same about JWs, Mormons or Wiccans who worship a creator?

Do you worship the same god as they do? Yes or no?

Of course.

I'm not a polytheist so I believe they worship the same God I do just in different ways.

Islam does not just "make incorrect statements about God".

Islam describes an entirely differnent god from the God of the Holy Scriptures and historic Christian faith.

As a latecomer to this discussion, I assume you have missed the previous 3 times I have posted this, so here it is again.

Since you have missed the 3 times I've posted this already, here it is again.

JPII and Lumen Gentium both say that Roman Catholicism and Islam "adore"(ie-worship), "one and the same" god.

The Roman Catholic document: "Nostra Aetate" states:


Quote:

The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth, who has spoken to men.
Is the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ the same as Allah?




The Biblical doctrine on the Trinity is correctly expressed in the Nicene and Athanasian creeds:

Quote:
We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is, seen and unseen. We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father…We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life…
​

Quote:

Now the catholic faith is that we worship One God in Trinity and Trinity in Unity, neither confounding the Persons nor dividing the substance. For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, another of the Holy Spirit. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, is One, the Glory equal, the Majesty coeternal.​

The importance of the doctrine of the Deity of Christ cannot be overstated. Unless the Son is truly God and 'one with the Father', Christians would be idolaters, for we regard Jesus as our Lord and Saviour and gladly worship him. If Jesus were not God, we would be found trusting in a creature for our salvation. But we confess that Jesus is not merely another prophet, but the Son of God. The Jews in hid day understood well what he meant by that title: 'For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God' (John 10:33). They did not believe his claim to Deity and condemned him to death for blasphemy. But Christians understand his claim and believe him; we trust and worship the Son of God; we live and die for our Lord. For in Christ we know God in truth:

Quote:
And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life (1 John 5:20, 21)
​

The Son is the true God; any other god is an idol.

Islam vehemently rejects the doctrine of God as revealed in Holy Scriptures.

Islam denies the Trinity:

Quote:
Certainly they disbelieve those who say: Surely Allah is the third (person) of the three; and there is no god but the one God, and if they desist not from what they say, a painful chastisement shall befall those among them who disbelieve (Sura 5:73).

O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning Allah save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers, and say not 'Three' - Cease! (it is) better for you! - Allah is only One Allah. Far is it removed from His Transcendent Majesty that He should have a son (Sura 4:171).
​

Islam denies the Father and the Son:

Quote:
The Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them (Sura 9:29-30).
​

Quote:

It does not befit GOD that He begets a son, be He glorified (Sura 19:35).​

Islam denies the Deity of Christ:

Quote:
The Messiah, Jesus the son of Mary, was no more than God’s apostle (Sura 4).
​

Quote:

They do blaspheme who say: Allah is Christ the son of Mary (Sura 5:72).​

And when Allah saith: O Jesus, son of Mary! Didst thou say unto mankind: Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah? he saith: Be glorified! It was not mine to utter that to which I had no right (Sura 5:116).​

In blasphemy indeed are those that say that Allah is Christ the son of Mary (Sura 5:17).​

Clearly then, the Quran denies:

1. The Trinity;
2. The Sonship of Christ;
3. The Deity of Christ.
​

The conclusion is inescapeable: the god of Islam is not the same God of the Holy Scriptures. Islam describes a totally different god altogether.

Christians do not adore the same God as Muslims. Muslims are not merely ignorant of the Triune nature of God and the Deity of the Son: the Quran explicitly negates the doctrine of Christ as taught in the Bible. Rather than adoring God with us, Muslims pray to their god that he might destroy us because of our faith in Christ, the Son of God.
Quote:
'The Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them' (Sura 9:29-30)
How could Roman Catholics and Muslims worship the same God since Muslims deny the Trinity, the Sonship and the Deity of our Lord?

Quite frankly, the statement that Crhistians and Muslims adore the same God is false. I won't speculate on the motives of the Roman Catholic hierarchy for declaring that Roman Catholicism and Islam worship "one and the same" god.

However, it should be evident to every Roman Catholic who has placed their confidence in the infallibility and unchangeableness of the Roman magisterium, that in fact the Vatican's teaching on this matter has changed and that it is both fallible and in grievious error bordering on blasphemy.

Just because you've said it before doesn't make it true, accurate, or reasonable.

Different beliefs about God does not mean that people are worshipping different Gods.

 

[stumpjumper]

In fact, the idea that many professing Christians have of God it makes me serious wonder if they are following God or another single diety...god.

Which is what makes threads like this so funny because most of you if it really came down to it would lump many other Christians in with Muslims and pagans who worship some other God than "True Christians" TM.

Simply put because a belief system is monotheistic doesn't make it automatic that they are worshipping God.

So what God are they worshipping?

Is this a creator God that created a different universe?

 

[mont974x4]

Which is what makes threads like this so funny because most of you if it really came down to it would lump many other Christians in with Muslims and pagans who worship some other God than "True Christians" TM.



So what God are they worshipping?

Is this a creator God that created a different universe?

Yeah, Heaven forbid we actually uphold truth...contend earnestly for the faith.



In the scenario I presented it is simply the sun, even if they beleive the sun is the creator and they worship the sun alone does not mean they are worshipping God.