JPII was repeating the so called "infallible" decree of Lumen Gentium:
And Rome declared that to be "Divine truth" spoken by God thorugh the Roman magesterium, just as God spoke through the Old Testament prophets.
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CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
How many agree with this
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JPII was repeating the so called "infallible" decree of Lumen Gentium:
And Rome declared that to be "Divine truth" spoken by God thorugh the Roman magesterium, just as God spoke through the Old Testament prophets.
God can be discovered through natural means, as St. Paul testifies. He also testifies that the pagans with the altar to the unknown God were worshipping the true God without knowing it.
Muslims don't worship contingent beings as idolators do (including polytheists). Rather, like Jews and other non-Christian monotheists they acknowledge the one transcendant God, Creator of all that can be known by natural means. Just because they believe something to be His revelation that isn't, doesn't mean it's the not the same God.
A good read on this is the chapter on Islam in Hillaire Belloc's book, "The Great Heresies."
St. Gregory VII, a crusader, affirmed the same thing as did St. John Damascene who described Islam as a heresy.
Muslims don't worship contingent beings as idolators do (including polytheists). Rather, like Jews and other non-Christian monotheists they acknowledge the one transcendant God, Creator of all that can be known by natural means. Just because they believe something to be His revelation that isn't, doesn't mean it's the not the same God.
A good read on this is the chapter on Islam in Hillaire Belloc's book, "The Great Heresies."
St. Gregory VII, a crusader, affirmed the same thing as did St. John Damascene who described Islam as a heresy.
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So, do you agree or not that Roman Catholicism worships "one and the same" as the god of Islam?
Yes or no?
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You leave out the part where Paul says, because what can be known of God, including His Divine Godhead is clearly seen, that they are without excuse.
That is not what Paul said at all.
Paul said, "Men of Athens, I can see that you are religious men, and even have a temple to an "unknown god". I am here to tell you who that unknown God is."
You see, the greek pagans had that temple to an unknown god as a way of hedging their bets, and trying to cover all the bases. It was just one in their pantheon that they did not give a name to.
Not that they were worshipping the True God at all.
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You left out the next part:
"Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."332
844 In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them:
Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.333
845 To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son's Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is "the world reconciled." She is that bark which "in the full sail of the Lord's cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world." According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah's ark, which alone saves from the flood.334 "
Well, we believe in the Trinity and Jesus Christ, they do not. But their religion is also monotheistic, so that's a start.
I have a question for you...Before I became a Christian, I was a 'general theist' (after being agnostic for several years)...I believed that there is a God, although I had not yet accepted Christianity (or any other religion). I was seeking Him, and then came to know Christ. Would you say that I believed in God, or something else?
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sunlover1
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Gonna have to agree with you on this one.
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and mans device. 30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath givene assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
32 And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter.
33 So Paul departed from among them.
34 Howbeit certain men clave unto him, and believed: among the which was Dionysius the Areopagite, and a woman named Damaris, and others with them.
http://christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=46206731#_ftn2
31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath givene assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
32 And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter.
33 So Paul departed from among them.
34 Howbeit certain men clave unto him, and believed: among the which was Dionysius the Areopagite, and a woman named Damaris, and others with them.
But there is only one name under Heaven by which all
men must be saved. So if they dont have Jesus,
they dont have salvation right? If they dont have
salvation then according to Scripture they're the children
of the devil, right?
So then that would mean that they worship a God of
their own making?
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Sunlover,
you're right that there is no salvation in Islam, and that it is only by Christ that we are saved... and indeed there are many lies in their religion... but that does not mean that there isn't ANY truth there too, after all they also believe that there is one God who is the Creator. So they got that part right
so do you see, they don't really know God the way He wants to be known, but that little part of truth they have could not have come from the devil. So it's not really that they believe in a God of their own making, but rather they have a corrupted, incomplete understanding of the real God. (and of course this is not enough for salvation, since we can only be saved by Christ..and God wants to bring them to the light).
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What makes your religion/belief correct and not others?Sunlover,
but that does not mean that there isn't ANY truth there too, after all they also believe that there is one God who is the Creator. So they got that part right
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Our is based on a historical event, whereas other religions are based on accounts of visions, revelations, philosophy, etc
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that's actually kinda like what I was saying too....
but the 1% is already something, and it's from God, not from the devil!
Pope JPII never meant that their understanding of God is true or that Islam=Catholicism... simply that Muslims and us share a belief in one God, even if they're wrong on everything else, they still have that.
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yes but the truth does not come from him.. he takes God's truth and mixes it up with his own lies.
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Rdr Iakovos
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Ahh, the predictable appeal to relativism.
The question posed should be "is there objective truth?"
That is to say, is there such a thing as truth?
In science, there is no relativism- yet we should believe somehow that in philosophy or theology (a subset of the former).
pffft.
The logical outcome of relativism is that there is also no right and no wrong, beyond function.
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