How long do you think.....

[MrPolo]

Holocaust Revealed
Ante Pavelic killer file

The information is out there. I just don't think you are looking hard enough (which I can understand as it reflects very badly on the Catholic Church)

John

In post #10 I had asked for an article from the Orthodox perspective, which neither of these links are. Maybe that's why I had trouble finding info.... But I'll look at them all the same, thanks.

 

[MrPolo]

I have to admit, I was a little skeptical of your first article which sounded a little "sensational" from the get-go:

the Nazi-installed regime of Ante Pavelic in Croatia carried out some of the most horrific crimes of the Holocaust (known as the Porajmos by the Roma), killing over 800,000 Yugoslav citizens - 750,000 Serbs, 60,000 Jews and 26,000 Roma. In these crimes, the Croatian Ustasha and Muslim fundamentalists were openly supported by the Vatican​

The Roma were largely Catholic for one, and for two, the article goes on to cite equally sensationalist "history" books of the matter, which are relatively contemporary.

It would appear that perhaps you, under the username prodromos, over at the Catholic Forums participated in a similar thread in which the Communist nature of the allegations were made.

I'm going to put here some Catholic responses to these allegations, including Arch. Stepinac, which I have browsed already.
InsideCatholic.com.
CatholicCulture.org.
A Q&A introduced by Pope John Paul II.

Needless to say, the Catholic response tells quite a different story and has some decent documentation of its own.

 

[Sphinx777]

Aloysius Stepinac

Blessed Aloysius Viktor Stepinac (Croatian: Alojzije Viktor Stepinac, 8 May 1898 – 10 February 1960) was a Croatian Catholic cardinal who was Archbishop of Zagreb from 1937 to 1960. He presided over the Croatian Catholic Church during World War II, a period in which it saw widespread collaboration with the Axis occupation, in particular with the Ustaše-led Independent State of Croatia (NDH) a Nazi puppet state established in occupied Yugoslavia. In 1946, in a verdict that polarized public opinion both in Yugoslavia and beyond, the Yugoslav authorities found him guilty of collaboration with the fascist Ustaše movement and complicity in allowing the forced conversions of Orthodox Serbs to Catholicism. He was sentenced to 16 years in prison, but after five years (during which he received preferential treatment) he was released and offered a choice of emigration or confinement to his home parish of Krašić, he chose the latter. In 1952 he was appointed cardinal by Pope Pius XII. In 1998, Pope John Paul II declared him a martyr and beatified him, which again polarized public opinion.

 

[Livindesert]

I have to admit, I was a little skeptical of your first article which sounded a little "sensational" from the get-go:

the Nazi-installed regime of Ante Pavelic in Croatia carried out some of the most horrific crimes of the Holocaust (known as the Porajmos by the Roma), killing over 800,000 Yugoslav citizens - 750,000 Serbs, 60,000 Jews and 26,000 Roma. In these crimes, the Croatian Ustasha and Muslim fundamentalists were openly supported by the Vatican
​

The Roma were largely Catholic for one, and for two, the article goes on to cite equally sensationalist "history" books of the matter, which are relatively contemporary.

It would appear that perhaps you, under the username prodromos, over at the Catholic Forums participated in a similar thread in which the Communist nature of the allegations were made.

I'm going to put here some Catholic responses to these allegations, including Arch. Stepinac, which I have browsed already.
InsideCatholic.com.
CatholicCulture.org.
A Q&A introduced by Pope John Paul II.

Needless to say, the Catholic response tells quite a different story and has some decent documentation of its own.

That would not suprise me. I asked the Orthodox on this forum if they pray with other Christians, after saying "yes we pray with other Christians" I brought up a Orthodox web site that says "Orthodox can only pray with Orthodox" Then they started saying "well as long as we are the only ones who pray aloud we will pray with others". So you see how it is hard to get truthful info out of them.

 

[Livindesert]

The Moldova pogrom which was lead by Orthodox priests.

First Kishinev pogrom of Easter, 1903:

The victims, mostly Jewish children, of a 1905 pogrom in Yekaterinoslav (today's Dnipropetrovsk).

"The anti-Jewish riots in Kishinev, Bessarabia (modern Moldova), are worse than the censor will permit to publish. There was a well laid-out plan for the general massacre of Jews on the day following the Orthodox Easter. The mob was led by priests, and the general cry, "Kill the Jews," was taken up all over the city. The Jews were taken wholly unaware and were slaughtered like sheep. The dead number 120 [Note: the actual number of dead was 47–48[7]] and the injured about 500. The scenes of horror attending this massacre are beyond description. Babies were literally torn to pieces by the frenzied and bloodthirsty mob. The local police made no attempt to check the reign of terror. At sunset the streets were piled with corpses and wounded. Those who could make their escape fled in terror, and the city is now practically deserted of Jews."[8]-

1. <LI id=cite_note-6>^ Hilary L Rubinstein, Daniel C Cohn-Sherbok, Abraham J Edelheit, William D Rubinstein, The Jews in the Modern World, Oxford University Press, 2002.
2. ^ "Jewish Massacre Denounced," in The New York Times, April 28, 1903, p. 6

Information found on Wikipedia Anti-Jewish pogroms in the Russian Empire

​

 

[Dorothea]

The Moldova pogrom which was lead by Orthodox priests.

This age is known by the Fathers as an "age of confusion". Once again, many parts of our world live in times of apostasy away from Christ, and -- not unexpectedly -- the "christs", "eschatologists" and "saviours" have multiplied again, affecting even baptised Orthodox. Even "the elect will be deceived", the Bible reminds us.

And yet, bleak and disheartening the situation may seem, Christ has neither abandoned us nor will He abandon us in the future, faithful to His promise that the "gates of Hades" shall not prevail against His Body, the Church, "until the end of the eon". Even with the deviations of individual people, Orthodoxy as a whole will not go astray despite the persecutions that she faced and will continue to face by the "gates of Hades" (e.g. religions, heresies, political leaders). For instance, Moslem Turks slaughtered more than 1.7 million Orthodox Christians inAsia Minor (underlined text leads to useful links) in a period of less than 30 years, by the end of WWI. Ante Pavelic, head of the Croatian Papist Ustase, joined the Germanic-Italian forces in 1941 slaughtering (according to conservative estimates) more than 800 thousand Orthodox Christians in Yugoslavia, an area that recently underwent the cruelty of new "Crusades", this time by NATO. Years before the massacre and dissection of the Serbs that had been foretold by St. Kosmas the Aetolian, Stalin alone had brutally killed an estimated 60 million Orthodox Christians in Communist USSR. Croatia, Romania, Poland; they all had trying fates at various points of their bloody history ... The list of those who tried to attack the Orthodox is endless: In recent centuries, the (Orthodox) Church has seen a much greater persecution than the first Church of post-apostolic years had ever seen. And yet, these enemies achieved nothing in the end. Orthodox Christianity is still there, a "thorn" to their diabolical plans. Since Christ is at the helm, nothing can destroy Orthodoxy, for "it is painful to kick barefoot on a wall of nails".

Of course, the above sad events only show the hatred of the man-hating devil who uses people to conduct evil against Orthodoxy. We must never forget that despite the persecutions, we are to love our enemies and pray for them: they are only slaves to the man-hating devil, so we must pray that God helps them.Also, Christ allows for us to carry our Cross in this way too for the hardships and tribulations stemming from "external" attacks, aimed against the members of the Church, make sure that She stays strong "in Christ". And, as the Bible reminds us, we did not come into this world to find a snug berth but to prepare for our journey: our true life awaits us after death. As a matter of fact, the greatest proof for the genuineness of Orthodoxy and Her true pride and joy are not so much Her innumerable miracles but Her innumerable mass of martyrs and confessors; for She is "not of this world" and thus the world did hate Her. Our true aim in life is to rise up spiritually towards theosis (glorification) while at the same time shine like "bright lamps" in our world of darkness and thus help ecclesialise the world. After all, that is why we are members of the Ecclesia of Christ: our aim in life is to reach towards theosis and in the process help those around us achieve this goal.

Eastern Orthodoxy

I pray to the Lord that your vendetta of hatred against His Church is taken away, and replaced with love for His Church, and all people.

 

[prodromos]

Of course the Serbian Orthodox ethinic cleansing was much much worse than any Catholic infraction I have heard about

Evidence to match the claims has failed to eventuate. Most of the bodies in the mass graves wore uniforms. They were casualties of war, not ethnic cleansing.

John

 

[prodromos]

It would appear that perhaps you, under the username prodromos, over at the Catholic Forums participated in a similar thread in which the Communist nature of the allegations were made.

Yep, that's me over there, though I don't spend much time there since the mass banning of Orthodox members from Catholic Forums.

John

 

[Livindesert]

Evidence to match the claims has failed to eventuate. Most of the bodies in the mass graves wore uniforms. They were casualties of war, not ethnic cleansing.

John

I am sorry but you are wrong according to the International Red Cross a Christian Organization over 12,000 children alone were killed.Not to mention the rape and civilain adult killings. Sorry you have to swallow this bitter pill but in this instance the Orthodox were the murderers. The Red Cross did not make up the mass graves.

 

[Livindesert]

In a possible explanation for what may have motivated the massacres, Bosnian Serbs bitterly accused Srebrenica's Muslim military commander, Nasir Oric, of massacring some 1,300 Serb civilians in fighting in the area in 1992. UN officials say Mr. Oric, who played a videotape of murdered Serb civilians to Western reporters in 1994, did launch a handful of subsequent raids from the theoretically demilitarized UN "safe area" of Srebrenica.
But the clothes, documents, and digging at the two sites, which are 10 to 15 miles from the main escape route used by fleeing Muslims and appeared to be no more than a few months old, were overwhelming evidence that civilians were massacred:

• Three canes, a crutch, and some 100 civilian jackets were found in a large pile 100 feet from the two mass graves, indicating that civilians, elderly, and the handicapped were among those executed.
• An identity card from the Muslim safe area of Srebrenica, an identity card with a Muslim name on it, and personal photos with Muslim names - including one from a young girl who had written "I love you, Meho" on the back of a small portrait - were found in the jackets.
• The smaller of the two graves near the Sahanici school reeked of rotting flesh.
• Thirty to 40 shoes, a pair of pants, a shirt, a blue civilian beret, socks, and shattered eyeglasses still in their case were found scattered across the top of the graves.
• The two graves near the Sahanici school are adjacent to railroad tracks and a paved road and are in two adjacent fields - details that match the descriptions of three men who say they survived a massacre there.
• The layout of a school a half mile from the graves perfectly matches the descriptions of survivors who say that more than 1,000 Muslim prisoners, including elderly men taken from outside the main UN base in Srebrenica, were gathered before they were executed. Adding credibility to the survivors' accounts, Bosnian Serb police, who confiscated pictures the Monitor took of the school where massacre survivors say they saw Bosnian Serb commander Mladic, said the school is a military installation.

Full article: Graves Found That Confirm Bosnia Massacre

 

[prodromos]

In a possible explanation for what may have motivated the massacres, Bosnian Serbs bitterly accused Srebrenica's Muslim military commander, Nasir Oric, of massacring some 1,300 Serb civilians in fighting in the area in 1992. UN officials say Mr. Oric, who played a videotape of murdered Serb civilians to Western reporters in 1994, did launch a handful of subsequent raids from the theoretically demilitarized UN "safe area" of Srebrenica.
But the clothes, documents, and digging at the two sites, which are 10 to 15 miles from the main escape route used by fleeing Muslims and appeared to be no more than a few months old, were overwhelming evidence that civilians were massacred:

Oh I don't deny that civilians were killed, and yes it was in response to the Muslims launching a long series of attacks from the UN safe area of Srebenica, not a handful. Despite the outrage the Serbians held towards the blatant abuse of the UN safe area, they did not engage in what has been labelled as "ethnic cleansing" because they provided safe transport for the Muslim women and children out of the area before they attacked. When you wish to remove a particular ethnic identity from your land, you do not usually protect the ones who give birth to further generations of the same. Srebenica was the result of a long and blatant provacation of the Serbians by the Muslims. It doesn't justify the slaughter, but it certainly gives ample explanation for why it happened.

John

 

[prodromos]

I am sorry but you are wrong according to the International Red Cross a Christian Organization over 12,000 children alone were killed.Not to mention the rape and civilain adult killings.

Muslims also murdered Serbian children and raped Serbian women. What evidence is provided by Red Cross that 12,000 children were killed and what is the ethnic identity of the children?

John

 

[Dorothea]

Haven't we gone off the OP's topic of JPII?

 

[Rhamiel]

yeah, neat topic till it was horribly derailed

 

[E.C.]

I am sorry but you are wrong according to the International Red Cross a Christian Organization over 12,000 children alone were killed.Not to mention the rape and civilain adult killings. Sorry you have to swallow this bitter pill but in this instance the Orthodox were the murderers. The Red Cross did not make up the mass graves.

The Red Cross also fails to realize that the areas of Germany bombed during WWII by the Allies were not centers of industry, but were rather centers of culture and places where civilians lived.

When Montgomery's brother was killed he demanded that every German city with a population over 100,000 be leveled into rubble.
Point is, the Red Cross can be bought.



Now, all that I was saying with regards to JPII is that he beatified a Croatian Cardinal who supported the Ustashe, supported the mass killings of Orthodox Serbs, supported the forced conversions of many Orthodox Serbs and helped the Nazis, Fascists and Ustashe get out of Europe to South American countries so they would not face extradition and consequently not face trials at Nuremburg.

How does that Croatian Cardinal affect JPII? JPII beatified that man and therefore due to that beatification I personally think that JPII can not be and should not be recognized a saint within the Roman Catholic Church. In terms of Roman Catholic-Orthodox Relations, that would set things as far back as the Sack of Constantinople in 1204.


Livindesert, I would suggest you cease the finger-pointing since it is irrelevant and counter-productive to the point of this thread which is the opinions on the beatification and possible canonization of JPII. If you would like to finger point the faults of individuals based upon biased journalism and falsified information, than by all means begin a separate thread.

Getting back onto the topic, as much as a great guy and great pope JPII was I don't think he can rightly be recognized a saint for beatifying a war criminal, a Ustashi Fascist and a collaborator, but you know what? That's just me

 

[Rhamiel]

The Red Cross also fails to realize that the areas of Germany bombed during WWII by the Allies were not centers of industry, but were rather centers of culture and places where civilians lived.

When Montgomery's brother was killed he demanded that every German city with a population over 100,000 be leveled into rubble.
Point is, the Red Cross can be bought.



Now, all that I was saying with regards to JPII is that he beatified a Croatian Cardinal who supported the Ustashe, supported the mass killings of Orthodox Serbs, supported the forced conversions of many Orthodox Serbs and helped the Nazis, Fascists and Ustashe get out of Europe to South American countries so they would not face extradition and consequently not face trials at Nuremburg.

How does that Croatian Cardinal affect JPII? JPII beatified that man and therefore due to that beatification I personally think that JPII can not be and should not be recognized a saint within the Roman Catholic Church. In terms of Roman Catholic-Orthodox Relations, that would set things as far back as the Sack of Constantinople in 1204.


Livindesert, I would suggest you cease the finger-pointing since it is irrelevant and counter-productive to the point of this thread which is the opinions on the beatification and possible canonization of JPII. If you would like to finger point the faults of individuals based upon biased journalism and falsified information, than by all means begin a separate thread.

Getting back onto the topic, as much as a great guy and great pope JPII was I don't think he can rightly be recognized a saint for beatifying a war criminal, a Ustashi Fascist and a collaborator, but you know what? That's just me

E.C. you make a call to end the finger pointing right after trashing the Red Cross? that is kinda hypocritical don't you think?

 

[Livindesert]

E.C. you make a call to end the finger pointing right after trashing the Red Cross? that is kinda hypocritical don't you think?

It is sad that the Orthodox on this thread cannot take out the plank in there own eye but love to smear someone like JPII.

 

[MamaZ]

Declared a saint by whom?

 

[Dorothea]

It is sad that the Orthodox on this thread cannot take out the plank in there own eye but love to smear someone like JPII.

We recognize we are sinners, as we cite it every week in the Nicene creed and pray for forgiveness daily. I would suggest that you do the same, and pray to work on your unhealthy hatred and obsession over the ORthodox and their church. Whatever brought you up to this present state, seek help in overcoming it. It is not good for your soul.

 

[Rhamiel]

Declared a saint by whom?

the Catholic Church, I would not expect others to declare him a Saint