How long did God wait before creating us?

[Assyrian]

Only 3D?

 

[chris4243]

Why would he wait? God has been creating us since the first instance of the Big Bang; everything has unfolded in its own time, with the earlier steps preparing the way for the later. Nothing could be created before the world was ready for it. If it took 13.7 billion years for humans to appear, that was how long it took to make the world ready for humans. It wasn't waiting; it was making ready and it took however long it took.

But surely before the start of the Big Bang God waited an eternity first.

 

[juvenissun]

Only 3D?

If time is a dot, and the dot moves in 3D, then how many Ds in total?

I think it is quite enough.

 

[Assyrian]

If time is a dot, and the dot moves in 3D, then how many Ds in total?

I think it is quite enough.

Enough for you maybe, but why would you think God would be limited to what is enough for you? And why do you think of God as limited to a moving dot? You have changed from a straight line to a line that can twist and curve through three dimensions, it it still a line.

...He is linear.

...he doesn't understand.

 

[gluadys]

But surely before the start of the Big Bang God waited an eternity first.

I don't know that one can speak of eternity as waiting. After all, time is part of creation, so eternity is timeless. There is no "before" the Big Bang since that was the beginning of time with its before and after perspective.

 

[chris4243]

I don't know that one can speak of eternity as waiting. After all, time is part of creation, so eternity is timeless. There is no "before" the Big Bang since that was the beginning of time with its before and after perspective.

Hm... does that mean that angels also do not experience time? (Since they were created before our universe)

 

[theFijian]

Hm... does that mean that angels also do not experience time? (Since they were created before our universe)

Gen 1:1 - In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Angels are filed under 'heavens'

 

[gluadys]

Hm... does that mean that angels also do not experience time? (Since they were created before our universe)

No, the angels are also part of creation, just as time itself is. Nothing created would be timeless. "before" has no meaning in relation to the universe. There is no time to be "before" the universe.

 

[chris4243]

If there is no time before the creation, then there is no Law of Cause and Effect (since the Law of Cause and Effect requires time, or an ordering of events, to function).

 

[theFijian]

If there is no time before the creation, then there is no Law of Cause and Effect (since the Law of Cause and Effect requires time, or an ordering of events, to function).

...and?

 

[Assyrian]

If there is no time before the creation, then there is no Law of Cause and Effect (since the Law of Cause and Effect requires time, or an ordering of events, to function).

Doesn't that depend on whether eternity is less than, or vastly greater than time?

 

[gluadys]

If there is no time before the creation, then there is no Law of Cause and Effect (since the Law of Cause and Effect requires time, or an ordering of events, to function).

I don't follow that. An ordering of events in time necessarily functions in time and doesn't need to exist where there is no time. Besides, time is relative to the observer. An observer in one frame of reference may see event A prior to event B while an observer in a different frame of reference will see event B prior to event A.

 

[ns7]

We get bored easily. If God is anything like us, then maybe he did not take too long. But I doubt God is anything like us.

 

[granpa]

Besides, time is relative to the observer. An observer in one frame of reference may see event A prior to event B while an observer in a different frame of reference will see event B prior to event A.

not if one causes the other.

 

[chris4243]

I don't follow that. An ordering of events in time necessarily functions in time and doesn't need to exist where there is no time.

Exactly, but the Law of Cause and Effect specifies that the cause happens before the effect. If there is no before, then there can be no cause.

Besides, time is relative to the observer. An observer in one frame of reference may see event A prior to event B while an observer in a different frame of reference will see event B prior to event A.

This is only true when the space interval separating A and B, measured in light-seconds, is greater than the time separation of A and B also measured in seconds. Ie, if the events are such that they cannot be causally linked. If the events are such that they could be causally linked (ie, light could travel from A to B in the time interval between the events), then all observers* will see the events happening in the same order.

*excluding observers traveling faster than the speed of light, which should be impossible but if no they'd be traveling backward in time and all kinds of funny things.

 

[lucaspa]

If there is no time before the creation, then there is no Law of Cause and Effect (since the Law of Cause and Effect requires time, or an ordering of events, to function).

If that is correct, then God could not cause Creation, could He? Yes, God created spacetime, so there was no time "before" the Big Bang. But cause and effect still need to operate in order for God to cause creation and create.

 

[lucaspa]

But surely before the start of the Big Bang God waited an eternity first.

That is a meaningless statement for us. We are confined to this universe and spacetime. God is not. How long God "waited" before causing the Big Bang is not something we can address.

 

[gluadys]

not if one causes the other.

How would you tell which causes the other if they have different chronological relationships when the frame of reference changes?

To one observer it would seem that A causes B. To the other observer it would seem that B causes A. In fact, even if there is only one observer, the difference in timing (and therefore causation) would differ according to the frame of reference used for the observation.

 

[gluadys]

Exactly, but the Law of Cause and Effect specifies that the cause happens before the effect. If there is no before, then there can be no cause.

Is that applicable to an eternal and immaterial cause?

I don't question that any material cause/effect relationship must occur in chronological sequence, but all material interactions take place in time since the beginning of material interactions and the beginning of time necessarily coincide.

But how does that affect the potentiality of God's will, which is not material? Bringing matter (and time) into existence is not an ordinary cause and effect relationship to be measured by material interactions in time.

This is only true when the space interval separating A and B, measured in light-seconds, is greater than the time separation of A and B also measured in seconds. Ie, if the events are such that they cannot be causally linked. If the events are such that they could be causally linked (ie, light could travel from A to B in the time interval between the events), then all observers* will see the events happening in the same order.

*excluding observers traveling faster than the speed of light, which should be impossible but if no they'd be traveling backward in time and all kinds of funny things.

Nevertheless it does indicate limits to the law of cause and effect. The instant of creation, it seems to me, would also be a very significant limit to the application of the scientific law. After all, it is a law of the property of the created order and so need not apply until a created order exists.

 

[granpa]

How would you tell which causes the other if they have different chronological relationships when the frame of reference changes?

To one observer it would seem that A causes B. To the other observer it would seem that B causes A. In fact, even if there is only one observer, the difference in timing (and therefore causation) would differ according to the frame of reference used for the observation.

you miss the point entirely.
if one causes the other then it will do so for all observers.