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How large would a bird need to be to carry us aloft?

Radrook

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Now this creature can definitely carry us aloft one would assume I thought until I noticed its weight!


Quetzalcoatlus - Wikipedia



1024px-Hell_Creek_dinosaurs_and_pterosaurs_by_durbed.jpg

By Matt Martyniuk (Dinoguy2), Mark Witton and Darren Naish - Own work, CC BY 3.0, File:Quetzscale1.png - Wikimedia Commons
Hell_Creek_dinosaurs_and_pterosaurs_by_durbed.jpg

By Durbed - Happy New Year from Hell Creek, CC BY-SA 3.0, File:Hell Creek dinosaurs and pterosaurs by durbed.jpg - Wikimedia Commons



I mean look at the size of it!




When it was first named as a new species in 1975, scientists estimated that the largest Quetzalcoatlus fossils came from an individual with a wingspan as large as 15.9 meters (52 feet), choosing the middle of three extrapolations from the proportions of other pterosaurs that gave an estimate of 11, 15.5 and 21 meters, respectively (36 feet, 50.85 feet, 68.9 feet). In 1981, further advanced studies lowered these estimates to 11–12 meters (36–39 ft).[1]

More recent estimates based on greater knowledge of azhdarchid proportions place its wingspan at 10–11 meters (33–36 ft).[2] Remains found in Texas in 1971 indicate that this reptile had a minimum wingspan of about 11 metres.[3]

Mass estimates for giant azhdarchids are extremely problematic because no existing species share a similar size or body plan, and in consequence, published results vary widely. Generalized height in a bipedal stance, based on its wingspan, would have been at least 3 meters (10 feet), much taller than a human.[4]

Generalized weight, based on some studies have historically found extremely low weight estimates for Quetzalcoatlus, as low as 70 kilograms (150 lb) for a 10-meter (32-foot-10-inch) individual, a majority of estimates published since the 2000s have been higher, around 200–250 kilograms (440–550 lb).
 


At the top weight of 550 pounds it is still half the weight of a horse.
 
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~Anastasia~

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Yes, I am aware of all the reasons why bad things happen to both good people and to bad people and that very often it has nothing to do with luck. However, to say that luck never has anything to do with it I can't agree. For example, does being born deformed physically or blind or mentally handicapped have to do with anything that the person has done? Is it his doing that he was born to abusive parents while another was born to caring loving parents? It a person's fault that he is born into a family who is starving to death while another is born into family that has money to burn? True, such things have their causes and some are traceable to character flaws of ancestors or family members, but to deny that a person born in one blessed situation wasn't lucky while the other who was born into an accursed one wasn't unlucky is a rather quaint concept.

BTW
What is your opinion on the oped question concerning the ability of that bird to carry us aloft and how large a bird has to be to do it?

It is also certainly possible that persons are born into the circumstances most likely to lead to their eternal life. Have you noticed that some people blossom in adversity, and learn empathy and kindness out of their own suffering? Likewise, every aspect of our lives, we each interact with somewhat uniquely, depending upon our tendencies and experiences. God is less concerned with comfort in this life than He is with eventual salvation, so perhaps some/many/all are born with the knowledge that whatever they are capable of responding to is at least made available to them. I believe Romans makes a vague reference to this, though some may interpret it differently. But if God is able to know us all intimately, numbering the hairs on our head, and the depths of our hearts, see the end from the beginning, and control anything He chooses, and desires all to be saved, it certainly makes sense. I suppose Calvinists would disagree, but I believe He makes salvation accessible to all, as much as possible, in love for all.
 
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Radrook

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It is also certainly possible that persons are born into the circumstances most likely to lead to their eternal life. Have you noticed that some people blossom in adversity, and learn empathy and kindness out of their own suffering? Likewise, every aspect of our lives, we each interact with somewhat uniquely, depending upon our tendencies and experiences. God is less concerned with comfort in this life than He is with eventual salvation, so perhaps some/many/all are born with the knowledge that whatever they are capable of responding to is at least made available to them. I believe Romans makes a vague reference to this, though some may interpret it differently. But if God is able to know us all intimately, numbering the hairs on our head, and the depths of our hearts, see the end from the beginning, and control anything He chooses, and desires all to be saved, it certainly makes sense. I suppose Calvinists would disagree, but I believe He makes salvation accessible to all, as much as possible, in love for all.

That is possible in some cases. For example, if I were to confidently hop on the back of an undersized avian thinking it could support my weight, prod it over a ledge and swiftly plummet all the way down to the rocks and shatter many bones in my body, how I endure the agony can have a refining effect on my personality.

However, the experience also has the potential of making me bitter against God for not having warned me that the beast I intended to ride gloriously through the ether was aero-dynamically unstable and totally incapable of hoisting me aloft with me perched on its haunches. So it all depends on how one responds to the disasters.
After all, disasters do befall people who do become bitter instead of holier-right?
 
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~Anastasia~

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That is possible in some cases. For example, if I were to confidently hop on the back of an undersized avian thinking it could support my weight, prod it over a ledge and swiftly plummet all the way down to the rocks and break many bones in my body, how I endure the agony can have a refining effect on my personality. However, it also has the potential of making me bitter against God for not having warned me that the beast was aero-dynamically unstable and totally incapable of flying with me perched on its haunches. So it all depends on how one responds to the disasters.
After all, disasters do befall people who do become bitter instead of holier-right?

Well, how we respond has everything to do with what is in our hearts, and thus is an important element in our salvation. And much as I (and God) might wish for all to be saved, the apparent indication from Scripture is that we cannot expect that to be the case.

I don't second-guess God, but I suspect there is often more going on in the circumstances of our lives than mere chance.
 
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Radrook

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Well, how we respond has everything to do with what is in our hearts, and thus is an important element in our salvation. And much as I (and God) might wish for all to be saved, the apparent indication from Scripture is that we cannot expect that to be the case.

I don't second-guess God, but I suspect there is often more going on in the circumstances of our lives than mere chance.

I am a firm believer in a creator who designed all these animals and who made some to dwell underwater, and others to soar through the skies. Why he didn't provide us with a creature that we could mount and soar through the skies as we mount horses and use them for travelling purposes only he knows. But judging by what I can see in the way they are made that was not his intention.

True, what things occur we must assume that if an almighty being who is in charge exists that he is responsible for whatever he permits to happen. Which means that if these great beasts are no longer with us then we must assume that it is in accordance with his will.

BTW

This brings us to the disasters which have plagued mankind which we must also assume he willingly permits. True, under duress some persons seem incapable of remaining perfectly calm. But is that truly a valid criteria for immediate condemnation? Not necessarily. Why? Because the reasons why qa person cannot show the same patience as another does must be taken into consideration.

Justice demands that all relevant issues be thoroughly and objectively evaluated before rendering a judgment. If not, then what we have is a mindless entity dishing out punishment at the slightest offense. Fortunately, that is not the way that the creator is biblically described.
 
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~Anastasia~

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I am a firm believer in a creator who designed all these animals and who made some to dwell underwater, and others to soar through the skies. Why he didn't provide us with a creature that we could mount and soar through the skies as we mount horses and use them for travelling purposes only he knows. But judging by what I can see in the way they are made that was not his intention.

True, what things occur we must assume that if an almighty being who is in charge exists that he is responsible for whatever he permits to happen. Which means that if these great beasts are no longer with us then we must assume that it is in accordance with his will.

BTW

This brings us to the disasters which have plagued mankind which we must also assume he willingly permits. True, under duress some persons seem incapable of remaining perfectly calm. But is that truly a valid criteria for immediate condemnation? Not necessarily. Why? Because the reasons why qa person cannot show the same patience as another does must be taken into consideration.

Justice demands that all relevant issues be thoroughly and objectively evaluated before rendering a judgment. If not, then what we have is a mindless entity dishing out punishment at the slightest offense. Fortunately, that is not the way that the creator is biblically described.

I agree that only God knows the heart, and so only He can judge rightly. And yes, I believe He takes opportunities and impediments into consideration. I'm not sure if you meant that being able to remain calm in a disaster is a criteria for salvation - I don't think it is. But being peaceful in the face of personal tragedy can be a result of the grace of God working in us, so very often those people are those God has already been working in.

What I meant is that tragedy is GOOD for many people. Sometimes we need something to humble us, to make us reach out for something beyond ourselves, and it may be that some people are born into tragic circumstances, or fall into them, and it can actually be an act of mercy.

Of course, sometimes we may suppose it is punishment (I think we are usually wrong when we assume this, but it could be possible), or perhaps it could be something that befalls a person who God knows will NOT turn to Him who will otherwise damage one of His, incidentally heaping more condemnation upon themselves in the process. I've seen some pretty freak occurrences that seem to be such a case. But we can only guess. God alone knows.

I only meant that I think we tend to be born into the circumstances most favorable to us, as persons, to allow us to turn to Him in whatever way we may, IF we may. So sometimes what looks like tragic circumstances may actually be a mercy and salvation.
 
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Radrook

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I agree that only God knows the heart, and so only He can judge rightly. And yes, I believe He takes opportunities and impediments into consideration. I'm not sure if you meant that being able to remain calm in a disaster is a criteria for salvation - I don't think it is. But being peaceful in the face of personal tragedy can be a result of the grace of God working in us, so very often those people are those God has already been working in.

What I meant is that tragedy is GOOD for many people. Sometimes we need something to humble us, to make us reach out for something beyond ourselves, and it may be that some people are born into tragic circumstances, or fall into them, and it can actually be an act of mercy.

Of course, sometimes we may suppose it is punishment (I think we are usually wrong when we assume this, but it could be possible), or perhaps it could be something that befalls a person who God knows will NOT turn to Him who will otherwise damage one of His, incidentally heaping more condemnation upon themselves in the process. I've seen some pretty freak occurrences that seem to be such a case. But we can only guess. God alone knows.

I only meant that I think we tend to be born into the circumstances most favorable to us, as persons, to allow us to turn to Him in whatever way we may, IF we may. So sometimes what looks like tragic circumstances may actually be a mercy and salvation.

Thanks for the very interesting feedback. God Bless!

BTW
Should I conclude that conjoined twins or people sharing one body are born in a circumstance because it is the best for them individually? Or that the Elephant man was born that way because it was deemed best for him? "Or that if I mount a flying creature break my neck and become a quadriplegic or if the beast suddenly reaches back with its beak and devours one of my eyeballs it was the best outcome for me in order to improve my personality?
 
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Radrook

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Here are two videos on the biggest prehistoric flying birds .





Both seem big enough don't they? But as was pointed out the bone density makes them rather light. Peleggormis Sandersi is described as probably having great difficulty getting airborne. maybe the most we could expect would be to ride it down as it glided to the ground after jumping off a ledge. But we do the same today with without the need of giant birds..
 
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~Anastasia~

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Thanks for the very interesting feedback. God Bless!

BTW
Should I conclude that conjoined twins or people sharing one body are born in a circumstance because it is the best for them individually? Or that the Elephant man was born that way because it was deemed best for him? "Or that if I mount a flying creature break my neck and become a quadriplegic or if the beast suddenly reaches back with its beak and devours one of my eyeballs it was the best outcome for me in order to improve my personality?
I don't think we can conclude anything definite in a particular situation. It is more a general principle.

It MAY BE that elephant man was able to embrace humility, develop compassion, or seek God as a result of his deformity. I'm not saying anything dogmatic.

Sometimes things are natural consequences. Biology breaks down. The world is in a fallen state. Mothers are given drugs that later turn out to be responsible for deformities. Perhaps that is just things playing out in the course that happens, based on our choices.

But to the degree that God ordains and controls, I think He uses what happens for our benefit, if we cooperate and let Him.
 
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~Anastasia~

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As to flying birds carrying humans, you also have to ask yourself - what's in it for the bird? Why would he be that way?

If humans had always had the capability of flight, who knows. Maybe certain civilizations would have been wiped out against God's will.

These are the "what ifs" we can never know. We can think of good possible reasons, but we aren't given to know every answer.
 
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Radrook

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As to flying birds carrying humans, you also have to ask yourself - what's in it for the bird? Why would he be that way?

If humans had always had the capability of flight, who knows. Maybe certain civilizations would have been wiped out against God's will.

These are the "what ifs" we can never know. We can think of good possible reasons, but we aren't given to know every answer.

Isn't it fair to ask the same question concerning all animals that we employ for our benefit-what is in it for them? I mean. we didn't negotiate with cattle or horses when we decided to exploit their abilities-right?

Also, I agree that mankind would have used such birds to make war. The invention of the airplane proves that beyond a doubt. So perhaps the creator in his wisdom didn't provide us with such a luxury due to our penchant to use animals the wrong way. After all, look at how we employed the horse in our efforts to mangle one another.
 
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Radrook

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I don't think we can conclude anything definite in a particular situation. It is more a general principle.

It MAY BE that elephant man was able to embrace humility, develop compassion, or seek God as a result of his deformity. I'm not saying anything dogmatic.

Sometimes things are natural consequences. Biology breaks down. The world is in a fallen state. Mothers are given drugs that later turn out to be responsible for deformities. Perhaps that is just things playing out in the course that happens, based on our choices.

But to the degree that God ordains and controls, I think He uses what happens for our benefit, if we cooperate and let Him.

The problem is that if a person feels that he wasn't given the same chance as others whom he knows for a fact are scum-bags who are enjoying life to the fullest, then it is only to be expected he will feel a strong sense of being unjustly punished or being maliciously attacked. I don't blame Job for complaining about what was occurring to him. I fully understand that his reaction was totally normal.

For example, if I observe godless heathens successfully mounting those beasts but whenever I try I plummet strait down into the rocks, then I will assume that someone is fiddling around with the details in order to prevent it and will eventually begin to very angrily ask why. If that is an irrational reaction then I really don't know what I should consider rational.
 
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~Anastasia~

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The problem is that if a person feels that he wasn't given the same chance as others whom he knows for a fact are scum-bags who are enjoying life to the fullest, then it is only to be expected he will feel a strong sense of being unjustly punished or being maliciously attacked. I don't blame Job for complaining about what was occurring to him. I fully understand that his reaction was totally normal.

For example, if I observe godless heathens successfully mounting those beasts but whenever I try I plummet strait down into the rocks, then I will assume that someone is fiddling around with the details in order to prevent it and will eventually begin to very angrily ask why. If that is an irrational reaction then I really don't know what I should consider rational.

Well, what we think is a huge subject, and IMO it is at the heart of salvation too. Not that what we think saves us but what we think literally shapes us, (as well as being shaped by who we actually are), and largely determines how we experience life.

This is something I've given a lot of thought to, because I like to read monastic texts on the subject. Those have to be read carefully, by the way, because we are not all monks and can be harmful if taken too literally in some cases, but reading many of them and practicing certain things has taught me about myself in this regard.

It may be understandable to think a certain way, because we are inherently concerned with ourselves. In almost all of us, there is a degree of pride that wants to assert OUR rights, and so on. So yes, human tendencies (what some might call our "fallen nature" makes certain thoughts normal, though not beneficial. Add to that if one believes in a spiritual realm and the possibility of demonic temptation, then we may be encouraged to think such thoughts.

And they may create a wall between us and God's grace, or feed passions within us that will cause us to reject it.

It is a battle.

But God doesn't give up. I do believe He puts us in beneficial circumstances, uses the bad that comes to us in ways to ultimately help us, sends angels to strengthen where demons would tear down, and so on.

But when we are somewhat warped by those negative thoughts, begin to prefer them, latch onto them, adopt them as who we are rather than realizing there is a counter (and better) way to think ... this is a process of us embracing darkness and preferring it to the light. Hopefully something else will later change the person to be open to God, but during life there are processes that can turn us into one eternally condemned, and these very often involve our thoughts, or are born there.

You're right. I've been focusing on the salvific parts of life, but there are condemnatory impulses too. In God's mercy, I think He does all possible to reach us. But He doesn't force us to accept it.

I'm not sure if that answers your question or not. It's hard to speak in generalities - usually specific examples explain better.
 
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~Anastasia~

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Isn't it fair to ask the same question concerning all animals that we employ for our benefit-what is in it for them? I mean. we didn't negotiate with cattle or horses when we decided to exploit their abilities-right?

Also, I agree that mankind would have used such birds to make war. The invention of the airplane proves that beyond a doubt. So perhaps the creator in his wisdom didn't provide us with such a luxury due to our penchant to use animals the wrong way. After all, look at how we employed the horse in our efforts to mangle one another.

What I meant is that a bird that could carry weight on its back would be an anomaly for "what birds are". Why would they need to do that?

Horses are strong and fast because it helps them escape predators. Animals grow hair or wool that we harvest because it keeps them warm, they produce milk we use because it feeds their babies. Dogs are good protectors and hunters so they could protect their packs and hunt food for themselves, and so on. Basically we take advantage of what an animal already uses.

But why would a bird need to carry something on its back? Extra weight is a detriment. They can't generally place or carry things there themselves.

Although, I have had hens that were so broody, they actually managed to steal eggs from other hens' nests when I had raised wooden dividers separating them. So SOMEHOW the hens managed to lift an egg over a low wooden wall, move it across space, and over another wall, without breaking the egg. Repeatedly. I had pencil marks on the eggs because they were eggs my hens were hatching for someone else, and no one else had access to the coop, so I know they did it, but I never figured out how.
 
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keith99

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As others have pointed out there is no way to make a bird or for that matter other winged animal that could lift a man.

If you want to make something alive that could I'd suggest starting with gas bags as described in Starman Jones and a few other works.
 
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~Anastasia~

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I watched a film last night with some rather fanciful creatures, including a bird with multiple sets of wings. Iirc, the creatures in Avatar were mostly six-limbed, so their flying creatures had two sets of wings?

That COULD begin to solve the problem - I don't know if that true or not. So maybe a giant bird with ten sets of wings could do it. I think we're getting back to multiple sparrows though ...
 
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Radrook

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If it's big enough to carry you it's big enough to eat you.
The man who rode elephants into battle was equipped with a long spike and a mallet with which to hammer it into the elephant's temple if it began misbehaving or going berserk.
 
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