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I don't have a problem with the concept of men and women being different - only that those differences somehow affect women's ability to preach.
Ringo
Except that ability to preach is not in question. Everyone knows that some women can preach better than some men. It has nothing at all to do with whether or not they should be deacons, priests/presbyters or bishops.
This is pretty clear:
Let a woman learn in silence with all submissiveness. I
permit no woman to teach or to have authority over men; she
is to keep silent(1 Tim.2:1112).
Well that isn't me but I will say this. It is generally accepted that if a interpretation of the bible conflicts with another part of the bible then the interpretation must be wrong. In the bible we see women in positions ofleadership in the church and depending on your denomination there is female bishops in the bible*. This would mean there is more to what Paul is saying then what it appears. There must be some other reasoning.Would somebody more theologically adept than myself like to make the case for female bishops that would include the reasoning behind not following Paul's instructions?
Well that isn't me but I will say this. It is generally accepted that if a interpretation of the bible conflicts with another part of the bible then the interpretation must be wrong. In the bible we see women in positions ofleadership in the church and depending on your denomination there is female bishops in the bible*.
I may have got the job title wrong but it has been mentioned here and is a very common argument used by the pro-Wo group.Uh, no. There are women in leadership, of course. This is beyond dispute. However, it doesn't make them clergy. And there is NO evidence from Scripture that women were ever bishops, nor has that argument been featured by the pro-WO (women's ordination) side in any of the churches that have bishops and recently decided to add women to the number. That should tell you something about the credibility of that argument.
As in all the churches of the saints, the women should
keep silence in the churches. For they are not permitted to
speak,but should be subordinate,as even the law says what
I am writing to you is a command of the Lord (1 Cor.
14:3334,37).
Let a woman learn in silence with all submissiveness. I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over men; she is to keep silent(1 Tim.2:1112).
We believe that God has gifted men and women with different responsibilities and duties. For example,men are gifted by God to be husbands and fathers;women are gifted by God to be wives and mothers.
See this to me is nothing but hypocrisy. If women are to be silent and learn in submission then how on earth can they be teaching? They can't possibly. So the LCMS says their belief is women are not to teach but they are happy for women to teach! We must take cultural context into consideration. At the time of writing children did not go out to sunday school. They were in the church with everyone else so clearly women are not to teach the kids at church either. Teach them at home - fine. It is something I never could understand as a person who grew up attending a lutheran church with same belief at the time.There are many ways for women to serve as full-time church workers in The Lutheran ChurchMissouri Synod,including service as teachers, directors of Christian education, directors of Christian outreach, deaconesses and parish nurses.
and men are to submit to women as well. I know it is more convienient to overlook that instruction for many. How do you deal with it?Women are the weaker vessel and are to be in submission and subjection to the male who is the head.
On what do you base the view that abortion is wrong? I expect you to address the scripture that said killing an unborn baby and doing no harm to the pregnant mother is not worthy of death despite the law being a life for a life. I haven't seen one single person address that. They quote all kinds of passages but never ever deal with the fact the bible does not demand life for life when an unborn baby is killed.Yes, you are wrong as it is a matter of scripture. You are a liberal. I may be mistaken but aren't you also for abortion and homosexual marriage.
I may have got the job title wrong but it has been mentioned here and is a very common argument used by the pro-Wo group.
please read through my next post in response to wordsoflife
Edit to add: Actually church leaders were equivalent of clergy
Reading verses 35 & 36 does not make it as clear cut as this statement indicates. Once again one must also consider the context. What was being written about? Disorderly worship. So one must ask the question what was making worship disorderly? why does it say women should make inquiries at home? That actually is very significant to the passage. The explanation by LCMS ignores that completly. That destroys its credibility.
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The issue I have with this is that it is based on faulty reasoning. I just don't understand how the outright disobediance of Adam is so much better than Eve being deceived. A simple reading of the account of the fall shows that Adam was willfully disobediant.
Of course there is also the question of the phrase "I do not permit". Naturally that will be affected by ones view of the bible. I have the unusual view that the bible is the inspired word of God while you don't. So it would be hard to actually discuss this due to that basic difference.
but then this statement becomes meaningless if you say it differently like men & women are gifted to be co-helpers and parents. Suddenly there is no distinction between what was just said. SAimply phrasing it one way does not change the fact they have just said the same thing about both men & women.
See this to me is nothing but hypocrisy. If women are to be silent and learn in submission then how on earth can they be teaching? They can't possibly. So the LCMS says their belief is women are not to teach but they are happy for women to teach! We must take cultural context into consideration. At the time of writing children did not go out to sunday school. They were in the church with everyone else so clearly women are not to teach the kids at church either. Teach them at home - fine. It is something I never could understand as a person who grew up attending a lutheran church with same belief at the time.
and men are to submit to women as well. I know it is more convienient to overlook that instruction for many. How do you deal with it?
On what do you base the view that abortion is wrong? I expect you to address the scripture that said killing an unborn baby and doing no harm to the pregnant mother is not worthy of death despite the law being a life for a life. I haven't seen one single person address that. They quote all kinds of passages but never ever deal with the fact the bible does not demand life for life when an unborn baby is killed.
Speaking for yourself is fine, but there are many who disagree and respect and encourage their women clergy, women bishops included.My response to you has already been given in my previous posts and what I have written stands and speaks for itself. You cannot get around the scriptures that speak against women being clergy without completely denying scripture. According to God's Word you are wrong and there is no wiggle room to allow women clergy. As far as abortion goes it is murder, but I don't expect a liberal like yourself to recognize the truth of God's Word.
Speaking for yourself is fine,
but there are many who disagree and respect and encourage their women clergy, women bishops included.
lol Like I said, speak for yourself. Your opinion is simply an opinion. I don't know what LCMS believe, nor care what it considers biblical.I'm not "speaking for myself", I gave the LCMS statement on the issue. This is the view of the entire denomination.
There are of coarse Churches with women clergy but they are in direct disobedience to God's Word.
lol Like I said, speak for yourself. Your opinion is simply an opinion. I don't know what LCMS believe, nor care what it considers biblical.
I'm not speaking for myself only this is the belief of my denomination. Go back to post #33 where I posted the LCMS belief.
Yet once again we have a posting (this time from you) in direct conflict with your stated beliefs. When will the double standard in the belief end?No, the ranks of the clergy in Christ's church are identified in Scripture, and we know from history the functioning of each. There were many other "leaders" of one sort or another, but they were not clergy and did not engage in clerical duties. The same holds true today, of course. Many churches which do not practice WO have women as heads of the parish council, lay readers (during the liturgy), Sunday School superintendents, eucharistic ministers, etc. etc. and there is no controversy.
(BTW, I did read your post to wordsoflife, but it deals with a different topic, one that I haven't taken up.)
and so is the LCMS according to what you have said or are you now claiing to have posted a liw before? You clearly stated that women do not have to learn in quietness and submission. You have clearly stated woman can teach. Both of these go against the LCMS official position. So which is it? Are they hypocrites or just really really bad at trying to follow Gods word?There are of coarse Churches with women clergy but they are in direct disobedience to God's Word.
You did not deal with it. Did you read my entire post or just the first word or none of it? According to the stated beliefs of LCMS both you and the LCMS are happy to ignore Gods word. I guess a conservative like you can't be expected to recognise the truth of God's word. Either answer the question or say you don't want to discuss it or say you don't know the answer. Don't just insult people which also goes against the LCMS instrustion you posted to not be antagonistic towards those with diferent belief.My response to you has already been given in my previous posts and what I have written stands and speaks for itself. You cannot get around the scriptures that speak against women being clergy without completely denying scripture. According to God's Word you are wrong and there is no wiggle room to allow women clergy. As far as abortion goes it is murder, but I don't expect a liberal like yourself to recognize the truth of God's Word.
Yet once again we have a posting (this time from you) in direct conflict with your stated beliefs. When will the double standard in the belief end?
yeah I read it. Didn't see where they said....I'm not speaking for myself only this is the belief of my denomination. Go back to post #33 where I posted the LCMS belief.
As I said, you are speaking for yourself. And I really don't care as to what you think about women clergy. The OP is the issue, not what LCMS believes. I doubt that any women in Pakistan could hold any position of leadership or authority in church or at work. Bet the LCMS have mission-work there.There are of coarse Churches with women clergy but they are in direct disobedience to God's Word.
Albion said:Except that ability to preach is not in question. Everyone knows that some women can preach better than some men. It has nothing at all to do with whether or not they should be deacons, priests/presbyters or bishops.
The Dag said:The issue I have with this is that it is based on faulty reasoning. I just don't understand how the outright disobediance of Adam is so much better than Eve being deceived. A simple reading of the account of the fall shows that Adam was willfully disobediant.
Then what does the ban on women pastors involve, if not ability?
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