How Just is God's Justice?

[Pilgrim 33]

Just because God is not in direct control of something does not automatically make it chaotic. As you say "God created every atom" but that does not mean he is constantly looking over them to make sure they stay orderly, he has set up physical laws that all atoms "obey" and continue to function as they should without constant maintanence.

This was, indeed, so at Creation. God created a perfect universe. But no more. When sin entered the world it effected everything, atoms included. The universe is winding down, it is dying just as mankind and everything in it is dying.

"Were the radioactive processes ... "switched on" at the time of the fall of man or the angels? The curse on the earth described in Genesis 3 suggests that God decreased the power flow from the spiritual realm into the physical realm at that time. The whole creation then became subject to "the bondage of decay". In physics we see this principal operating today---it is the familiar Second Law of Thermodynamics---the tendency of things to rot, rust, decay, run down and fall apart with the passage of time-as well as the increasing unavailability of energy to do useful work and nature's inexorable tendency towards chaos and disorder."

"This is a very profound statement for in it we see that sin very literally effected the entire universe and not just mankind. We speak of the self-degeneration of the universe and yet if the perfect work of God is such in not just anything but everything He does then even this concept of a dying universe was not originally present."-Lambert Dolphin, physicist

 

[LogicalFallacy]

This was, indeed, so at Creation. God created a perfect universe. But no more. When sin entered the world it effected everything, atoms included. The universe is winding down, it is dying just as mankind and everything in it is dying.

"Were the radioactive processes ... "switched on" at the time of the fall of man or the angels? The curse on the earth described in Genesis 3 suggests that God decreased the power flow from the spiritual realm into the physical realm at that time. The whole creation then became subject to "the bondage of decay". In physics we see this principal operating today---it is the familiar Second Law of Thermodynamics---the tendency of things to rot, rust, decay, run down and fall apart with the passage of time-as well as the increasing unavailability of energy to do useful work and nature's inexorable tendency towards chaos and disorder."

"This is a very profound statement for in it we see that sin very literally effected the entire universe and not just mankind. We speak of the self-degeneration of the universe and yet if the perfect work of God is such in not just anything but everything He does then even this concept of a dying universe was not originally present."-Lambert Dolphin, physicist

I agree, when Adam sinned it was like pulling the plug on an electric fan, gradually the fan slows and then comes to a stop.
God owns the universe and he pulled the plug on it when mankind revolted against his rule. However there were others that didn't chose to sin like Adam did, for example, I didn't choose for Adam to sin, niether did anyone else on earth today, which is why I know the Bible was written to show what happened with Adam and to invite us to follow God and his law.

I strongly believe that God will bring this earth back to the condition that Adam enjoyed, because he is God and he loves us, and doesn't want us to suffer because of what one man decided to do in the Garden of Eden.

LF,

 

[mawuvi]

The Boss may be "in control" of The Company but does He personally make each and every decision and perform every single act throughout each day of The Company's business and affairs? Of course, not! That's what "Employees" are for. Can He close The Company anytime He chooses, does He have an impact on the world outside The Company, can He make changes within The Company anytime He wishes? Of course, He's The Boss and The Boss is "in control" and His Company, as with all companies, has an impact on the world around It and, like all successful firms, has a Business Plan It follows to insure Its success.

But what of those that are not of The Company? Does The Boss control their every thought and action? Why would He? They don't belong to His Company, they're not even His "employees". All the other businesses, jobs, even those on "unemployment", everything outside of The Company, is chaos...and they belong to The Company's competing firm's owner, their father, The Father of Confusion.

The Boss will not take away free will, free choice, free thought or free action from anyone. It's up to each individual in the chaotic world outside The Company to decide whether they desire to remain in Confusion or join The Company.

You know I wanted to respond to Stauron but I am feeling very tired I did not know how to go about responding and then I saw this and went "WOW" That about sums up everything I wanted to say. This would do fine, I could not have put it any better. Thank you for an excellent post Pilgrim 33 you really made my day, God bless and much Christian love.

 

[Pilgrim 33]

I agree, when Adam sinned it was like pulling the plug on an electric fan, gradually the fan slows and then comes to a stop.
God owns the universe and he pulled the plug on it when mankind revolted against his rule. However there were others that didn't chose to sin like Adam did, for example, I didn't choose for Adam to sin, niether did anyone else on earth today, which is why I know the Bible was written to show what happened with Adam and to invite us to follow God and his law.

I strongly believe that God will bring this earth back to the condition that Adam enjoyed, because he is God and he loves us, and doesn't want us to suffer because of what one man decided to do in the Garden of Eden.

LF,

As I understand it, God pronounced essentially four curses.

He cursed Satan, Eve, the ground of the earth, and Adam.

Genesis 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Genesis 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

Genesis 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;

Genesis 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

But sin is what started the death or, dying process, the better translated "dying you shall die" process spoken of in

Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die

and which has been the source of the death process for all creation and could just as easily be understood to read, "dying everything shall die" or, even, "dying creation shall die" until one day when

2 Peter 3:10 ...the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up to eventually be followed by a completely

Revelation 21:1 ...new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away...

 

[stauron]

The Boss may be "in control" of The Company but does He personally make each and every decision and perform every single act throughout each day of The Company's business and affairs? Of course, not! That's what "Employees" are for. Can He close The Company anytime He chooses, does He have an impact on the world outside The Company, can He make changes within The Company anytime He wishes? Of course, He's The Boss and The Boss is "in control" and His Company, as with all companies, has an impact on the world around It and, like all successful firms, has a Business Plan It follows to insure Its success.

But what of those that are not of The Company? Does The Boss control their every thought and action? Why would He? They don't belong to His Company, they're not even His "employees". All the other businesses, jobs, even those on "unemployment", everything outside of The Company, is chaos...and they belong to The Company's competing firm's owner, their father, The Father of Confusion.

The Boss will not take away free will, free choice, free thought or free action from anyone. It's up to each individual in the chaotic world outside The Company to decide whether they desire to remain in Confusion or join The Company.

Right, that is why God is not the boss, but the Potter.

 

[mawuvi]

Right, that is why God is not the boss, but the Potter.

Stauron I think you are failing to understand something here, NOWHERE IN THE THREAD is anyone saying the Potter can not do as he pleases. We are talking about FREEWILL and we are saying God does not interfere with this. There is a big difference. Can you show just one instance in the Bible where God stopped someone's freewill to sin?

 

[stauron]

Incorrect! Just because God is not in direct control of something does not automatically make it chaotic. As you say "God created every atom" but that does not mean he is constantly looking over them to make sure they stay orderly, he has set up physical laws that all atoms "obey" and continue to function as they should without constant maintanence. Likewise, God creates free-will, but that doesn't make it automatically chaotic, free-will too was bound by laws and priciples which is what would keep it orderly. The only thing that would make Gods creation of free-will chaotic, is the misuse of free-will, which is what Adam did, which is why we now see chaos and disorder.

If there ever was such a thing as "free" will, Adam had it. However, he enslaved himself to sin. Sorry, but the seasons, the stars, the hair on our head, the sparrows, Satan and the angels, everything is constantly reporting back to God to give an account. He is DIRECTLY in control of everything, and even if He weren't, your view is just putting things back one step. It doesn't help explain anything better or remove accountability from God for calamity.

Real misrepresentation is when you say that misery and pain come from God being in a bad mood or that it does not matter how we live because God planned it that way.

What is your Gods game then?

This fits together with the whole parenting thing.

12:5 And have you forgotten the exhortation addressed to you as sons?

“My son, do not scorn the Lord’s discipline

or give up when he corrects you.

12:6 “For the Lord disciplines the one he loves and chastises every son he accepts.”

Do parents get pleasure from disciplining their children?

I have provided scriptures in abundance that you have to dance around to get them to fit in with your theology, so I don't see your point.
Argh! because the bible says God wills us to work and do good deeds cannot ever mean that he is in full control of our free-will, thats a massive leap from what is being said.
I "will" my kids to be good and honest, my wife "wills" me to open my wallet

, but that doesn't mean that my kids or me obey this "willing" process. You make another huge leap from whats actually being said.

I am not sure which scriptures you have provided to which I am dancing, I just keep seeing you use non-biblical examples to prove "free" will. We are clay and God is the Potter. God is the Author. God chooses where we live, how long we live and by your admission manipulates the events in our lives so we do what He wants. That doesn't jive with your examples of your wife and kids. It certainly doesn't match up with the boss and company thing. God is the Author. Do the Characters in a book tell the author how to write? Does the clay answer back to the Potter and say "what have you done?"

I asked at the end of my last post which were;

Why was the Bible written?

What is sin to you?

And Why is you mock rebellion taking place? (what purpose does it serve)

LF,

The Bible is the account of God's plan. He condescended to explain His works so that we would not be in darkness.

Sin is anything less than 100% perfection in thought, word and deed.

I don't know anything of a mock rebellion. I assume that you mean that since you can't grasp God's absolute sovereignty and man's responsibility over the same event that you are referring the great question of life the universe and everything. Of course the answer is 42.

God designed a world where His Holiness could be perfectly displayed in mercy and wrath. He created everything with an eye towards the summing up of all things in Christ. Satan, sin, suffering, everything is a tool that He uses to bring about His Glory. Indeed the whole earth is full of His Glory. So, the rebellion is the means of exercising His patience, demonstrating His wrath, and, ultimately, His mercy and grace towards the elect.

We are too often like the servant that saw the army encircling the city and despaired. Whereas the man of God sees aright and says “Don’t be afraid, for our side outnumbers them.” (2 Kings 6)

I will just say again God does as He pleases and no one stops His hand. He works in us our will and what we do to accomplish His plan.

You have this idea that in order for God to be Sovereign that we must be under some kind of mind control. We freely choose to do what God planned. He understands us better than we understand ourselves and He uses sin and rebellion to do what He already planned. Satan convinced Judas to betray Christ so that the Jews and the Romans could work in collusion and execute Him as a trouble maker. They went to great lengths to hatefully and spitefully do exactly what God had predestined from before the foundation of the world. At every point they were free. With great delight they threw in their lot with rest of the sinners so that God's purpose would be accomplished. God perfectly used all of His servants to bring about His plan. They all had a part. Each one choosing to do willfully EXACTLY WHAT GOD PLANNED. Their freedom was bound by God, it was their nature to be evil and in total rebelion to God, yelling invectives and cursing God the entire time they did what pleased God and fulfilled His plan.

 

[blessedbe]

I don't know anything of a mock rebellion. I assume that you mean that since you can't grasp God's absolute sovereignty and man's responsibility over the same event that you are referring the great question of life the universe and everything. Of course the answer is 42.

ROFL!!!! Douglas Adams ROCKS!!!

 

[blessedbe]

Stauron,

God designed a world where His Holiness could be perfectly displayed in mercy and wrath. He created everything with an eye towards the summing up of all things in Christ. Satan, sin, suffering, everything is a tool that He uses to bring about His Glory. Indeed the whole earth is full of His Glory. So, the rebellion is the means of exercising His patience, demonstrating His wrath, and, ultimately, His mercy and grace towards the elect.

We are too often like the servant that saw the army encircling the city and despaired. Whereas the man of God sees aright and says “Don’t be afraid, for our side outnumbers them.” (2 Kings 6)

I will just say again God does as He pleases and no one stops His hand. He works in us our will and what we do to accomplish His plan.

You have this idea that in order for God to be Sovereign that we must be under some kind of mind control. We freely choose to do what God planned. He understands us better than we understand ourselves and He uses sin and rebellion to do what He already planned. Satan convinced Judas to betray Christ so that the Jews and the Romans could work in collusion and execute Him as a trouble maker. They went to great lengths to hatefully and spitefully do exactly what God had predestined from before the foundation of the world. At every point they were free. With great delight they threw in their lot with rest of the sinners so that God's purpose would be accomplished. God perfectly used all of His servants to bring about His plan. They all had a part. Each one choosing to do willfully EXACTLY WHAT GOD PLANNED. Their freedom was bound by God, it was their nature to be evil and in total rebelion to God, yelling invectives and cursing God the entire time they did what pleased God and fulfilled His plan.

very well put! After much personal fighting, I have to say I agree with you. It was the hardest thing to do, to let go and accept that God is in total control, yet we are still accountable for our actions.

brings to mind this song. God is an AWESOME God, He REIGNS from heaven above, with WISDOM, POWER, and LOVE...our God is an AWESOME God.

 

[mawuvi]

Before this gets lost in the melee of posts, let me repeat it as I believe it would help the discussion to have this important question answered.

Stauron I think you are failing to understand something here, NOWHERE IN THE THREAD is anyone saying the Potter can not do as he pleases. We are talking about FREEWILL and we are saying God does not interfere with this. There is a big difference. Can you show just one instance in the Bible where God stopped someone's freewill to sin?

 

[stauron]

Stauron I think you are failing to understand something here, NOWHERE IN THE THREAD is anyone saying the Potter can not do as he pleases. We are talking about FREEWILL and we are saying God does not interfere with this. There is a big difference. Can you show just one instance in the Bible where God stopped someone's freewill to sin?

Well not in the way you are trying to present it. But I am certainly suggesting a paradigm shift.

I think that our definitions are certainly in question here.

The OP was trying to establish that God's purpose was to finally prove Himself because Adam's sin brought into question if anyone could obey God. And specifically that God could only use a human or He would not be just.

I have droned on and on about this point because LogicalFallacy has contended that the real issue is

could God produce a human that would prove that humans can remain obedient right up to death?

His assumption behind this question is that mankind is neutral and free. The false definition of "free" will comes from this assumption. In turn, this assumption is contingent on God being the boss of things and not the Author and Creator.

If God is God there is nothing outside, above or beyond Him.

As I pointed out in Matt 7, especially in regard to righteousness, men are passive and God is active. Men are trees, pots or dead bones.

They are not neutral entities. They are contingent, dependant, subservient because that is by definition what creature/created means.

Paul makes explicit the references from the OTS that refer to God's sovreignty in Romans 9.

The question there is almost what LogicalFallacy is asking. If the Jews were God's people then why are only some of them saved? God must not really be just or all powerful if after all the work He went through only some of them got saved.

Paul has two answers. God has mercy on whom He wills (and He hardens the rest) and as the Potter He makes some of the lump of humankind into noble vessels (thus they are saved) and some of the lump He makes into vessels of wrath. He makes the decision, not the clay.

So if you mean by "free" will, that men can choose what to drink for breakfast and whether to wear the red tie or the blue one, then fine. If you mean that men can evaluate God and weigh whether His is the best plan or not, then we have a fight. I still think that God has worked into His plan orange juice and ties, but the sticky widget is that His plan is authoritative and our plans are contingent.

Ok, now to answer your question. Yes and no. No in the sense that our "free" will is only free according to our nature and never surprises God, so He has no need to contradict it because it is already accounted for.

Yes, because anytime He changes the nature of the bad tree and makes it a good tree (also known as being born again or getting a new heart) God changes our desires and takes away our bondage to sin.

So we love our bondage and gladly sin and wallow in it and then God callously takes the scales off our eyes, removes the stone from our breast and puts in a heart that desires to do good and loves God. Against our will. But then our will follows our new nature...

 

[mawuvi]

Stauron I asked for a scriptural example of your claims. With regard to your response and the lack of any scriptural reference I take it you don't have any. In order not to get lost in long statements, the long and short of your last statement is there is no example of your thesis anywhere in the Bible, it is all opinion. That being the case I gave you scripture in Hebrews 10: 26 to the contrary of what you are saying.

In conclusion the Bible says GOD DOES NOT INTERFERE with man's ability or desire (FREEWILL) to sin. This is line with the OP that Adamic sin was willful and not purposed by God in any way. Within this line of understanding Jesus could have sinned if he chose to and God WOULD NOT have intervened in anyway to stop it because doing so would have made the whole ransom sacrifice a joke as it was based on giving like for like, that is Jesus had to be on the same scale and footing as Adam's free t o choose to do the will of God or not. Happily Jesus succeeded where Adam failed and God's name was vindicated.
See Job 1: 8 - 12; Job 2: 3 - 6

All of this does not take away God's power of being the potter because the Potter's role is in the Grand design of things as illustrated by Pilgrim 33 in his summary of the boss.

 

[Serapha]

I strongly believe that God will bring this earth back to the condition that Adam enjoyed, because he is God and he loves us, and doesn't want us to suffer because of what one man decided to do in the Garden of Eden.

LF,

Hi there!



Using the "one man" philosophy, then you should be rejecting the death of one man to redeem the sins of the world also.... Is that the case?



~serapha~

 

[stauron]

Stauron I asked for a scriptural example of your claims. With regard to your response and the lack of any scriptural reference I take it you don't have any. In order not to get lost in long statements, the long and short of your last statement is there is no example of your thesis anywhere in the Bible, it is all opinion. That being the case I gave you scripture in Hebrews 10: 26 to the contrary of what you are saying.

In conclusion the Bible says GOD DOES NOT INTERFERE with man's ability or desire (FREEWILL) to sin. This is line with the OP that Adamic sin was willful and not purposed by God in any way. Within this line of understanding Jesus could have sinned if he chose to and God WOULD NOT have intervened in anyway to stop it because doing so would have made the whole ransom sacrifice a joke as it was based on giving like for like, that is Jesus had to be on the same scale and footing as Adam's free t o choose to do the will of God or not. Happily Jesus succeeded where Adam failed and God's name was vindicated.
See Job 1: 8 - 12; Job 2: 3 - 6

All of this does not take away God's power of being the potter because the Potter's role is in the Grand design of things as illustrated by Pilgrim 33 in his summary of the boss.

So you ask a question.

Just because there is not a verse that answers your question does not prove anything.

Your verse is ambiguous. And is easily accounted for. We will to sin. To continue to willfully sin does not prove your "free" will. It actually works the other way. Our will is bound by our sinfulness.

You must define your terms.

For your point to be valid you must prove that man is metaphysically free from God. This is where the clay and the Potter come in to play.

My post was about definitions. You asked a question along the lines of "Did God create cats?" Show me a verse that says God created cats. Or maybe a better example is "Did God Create tornados?"


At any rate, the grand design of things includes all the details. God is God over the details too.

Unless you are saying that "free" will doesn't have anything to do with salvation. God takes a lump of clay. He chooses some of it to make into vessels of mercy. These are 'saved', christians, born again, regenerate, elect. He chooses some to be vessels of wrath. These are lost, goats, reprobates. Again the choice is in the hands of the Potter not the clay and the will of the clay is not consulted. The boss illustration is shallow and unhelpful in this respect.

The scriptures paint a picture of us like this: dead, Satan's pawn, slaves, clay.

So to answer your question, again, yes and no. God has no need to violate our will because we willingly do what He plans. You have asked a meaningless question because one of the terms you use "free" modifying "will" is as meaningless as asking a leopard to change its spots. It is an empty, nonsense word.

And Daniel 4 does address the intention behind your question. God does as HE pleases among the inhabitants of the earth and the host of heaven and NONE can stay His hand or ask "what have you done?"

And Exodus and Romans 9 address the intent too. God hardened Pharoah. He did with Pharoah as He pleased and punished him afterwards.

And the illustration from Isaiah addresses your dilemma as well.

10:7 But he does not agree with this,
his mind does not reason this way,
for his goal is to destroy,
and to eliminate many nations.

So, in turn, your opinion about "willfully" sinning is wrong and doesn't support the OP.

 

[stauron]

Well, it seems that someone took their ball and went home.

I didn't even get to some of the best ones:

The proconsul summoned Barnabas and Saul and wanted to hear the word of God. 13:8 But the magician Elymas (for that is the way his name is translated) opposed them, trying to turn the proconsul away from the faith. 13:9 But Saul (also known as Paul), filled with the Holy Spirit, stared straight at him 13:10 and said, “You who are full of all deceit and all wrongdoing, you son of the devil, you enemy of all righteousness—will you not stop making crooked the straight paths of the Lord? 13:11 Now look, the hand of the Lord is against you, and you will be blind, unable to see the sun for a time!” Immediately mistiness and darkness came over him, and he went around seeking people to lead him by the hand. 13:12 Then when the proconsul saw what had happened, he believed,

Seems like a pretty direct rejection of his will.

16:6 They went through the region of Phrygia and Galatia, having been prevented by the Holy Spirit from speaking the message in the province of Asia. 16:7 When they came to Mysia, they attempted to go into Bithynia, but the Spirit of Jesus did not allow them to

And here it is Paul and Co. that have their "free" will violated and are prevented from doing what they want.


So, to contradict the OP and the contention of the JW's, God planned creation from start to finish. He is not some boss that only cares about the big picture. His plan encompassed every detail from the hairs on our head to the paths of the stars.

4:35 All the inhabitants of the earth are regarded as nothing.

He does as he wishes with the army of heaven

and with those who inhabit the earth.

No one slaps his hand

and says to him, ‘What have you done?’

God is the only One that can say this. He plans our dwelling places and our births and death.

When one says:

Satan, having succeeded in his purpose to deflect our first parents the perfect Adam and Eve, falsely charged that God could not put on earth men and women that would remain faithful to him under pressure and temptation.

They directly contradict

9:22 But what if God, willing to demonstrate his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience the objects of wrath prepared for destruction? 9:23 And what if he is willing to make known the wealth of his glory on the objects of mercy that he has prepared beforehand for glory

and

1:4 For he chose us in Chris before the foundation of the world that we may be holy and unblemished in his sight in love.12 1:5 He did this by predestining us to adoption as his sons through Jesus Christ, according to the pleasure of his will— 1:6 to the praise of the glory of his grace that he has freely bestowed on us in his dearly loved Son. 1:7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace 1:8 that he lavished on us in all wisdom and insight. 1:9 He did this when he revealed to us the secret of his will, according to his good pleasure that he set forth in Christ, 1:10 toward the administration of the fullness of the times, to head up all things in Christ—the things in heaven and the things on earth. 1:11 In Christ we too have been claimed as God’s own possession, since we were predestined according to the one purpose of him who accomplishes all things according to the counsel of his will

Basically it shows an understanding that is bound by time. God gives us the inside scoop from before the begining. God did not create to see if He could. He created with a plan in mind, to demonstrate His mercy and wrath. He bears patiently with the one in order to lavish His love on the other. And since we have clear verses that show that He does as He pleases and accomplishes the council of His will, we know that He is successful.

Just like a good commander uses the strengths and weaknesses of his allies and his enemies to acheive his goals, God uses the weak to put to shame the strong and the makes what appear to be losses victory.

But even more than that, He planned it that way.

 

[blessedbe]

very well said Stauron!! reps for you!

 

[stauron]

very well said Stauron!! reps for you!

Thanks!

I am a little disapointed that the thread is dying...



Oh well...

It was fun while it lasted.

 

[LogicalFallacy]

[nospam]

[nodis]

 

[blessedbe]

Thanks!

I am a little disapointed that the thread is dying...



Oh well...

It was fun while it lasted.

Since this thread is pretty well dead anyway, thought I'd just go ahead and post off topic----see my new faith icon stauron?? Just put it on today...many thanks to you for clarifying some things for me, you were partly responsible for my decision!!!

 

[stauron]

Since this thread is pretty well dead anyway, thought I'd just go ahead and post off topic----see my new faith icon stauron?? Just put it on today...many thanks to you for clarifying some things for me, you were partly responsible for my decision!!!

You go girl!!!

Thanks for the encouragement. It makes all the typing and dredging through the muck worthwhile.