How is Once Saved Always Saved not a license to sin? (moved)

[nobdysfool]

All I'm seeing here is one person who is playing fast and loose with definitions, and conflating different terms, stamping his feet and insisting he and only he is right, no matter what other people say. I don't think this person is interested in discussing anything, he just wants to insist that he alone is correct. To me it's like the sound of one hand clapping. False accusations abound, and even though he has been corrected multiple times, he just wants to run rabbit trails to avoid admitting that he has been corrected. Apparently, he likes to see his words in print (the internet equivalent of liking to hear himself speak). he's so full of himself that he has no ability to listen. And he presumes to lecture us about sin, and forgiveness....

 

[nobdysfool]

What are some of the really bad fruits of OSAS?

George Sodini. He believed in OSAS very strongly. Yet he turned out to be a mass murderer.

http://eternalsecurity.us/george_sodini.htm


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So because you found an account of one guy, that "proves" that ALL OSAS believers are mass-murderers? Sorry, but that's idiotic!

 

[GillDouglas]

How is "Once Saved Always Saved" not a license to sin?

I have argued the topic of "Once Saved Always Saved" or "Eternal Security" for many years. In my many discussions on this topic on various forums, I have noticed that there are many warnings in the Bible that go ignored; In addition, the the moral issue is also ignored (in my opinion), as well. Please tell me how "Once Saved Always Saved" is not a license to sin. Can a person abide in unrepentant sins like lying, lusting, and hating and still be saved if they do those sins the rest of their life and die? Or do all true believers become holy and righteous in time? So does a believer do both good and bad as a part of their every day life? Or are they changed and different (showing that they have put on the new man)? Are believers supposed to be a holy and separate people that are different from the world or not?

All men are born in sin and left alone can do nothing to change that nature. Once God intercedes, there is an irresistible and permanent change that takes a man who was once a slave to sin and releases him from that prison. The now spiritually capable man, driven by the Holy Spirit, is able to now see the nature he was once a slave to and gives his life over to God. A man will still fall prey to sin due to the temptation of this world but not because he loves sin like his old self. The process in which one is made more holy, more Christ like, can take a lifetime. Luckily for us, man is not alone in this spiritual journey.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Jesus said you will know a tree by it's fruit.

#1. "Repeat Testimonies of Bad Fruit."

OSAS in many cases tends to lead people into being enslaved to their sin and not set free from it. How so? Just check out these testimonies below.

Audio Testimonies:
Testimonies of former eternal security believers

Suicide & OSAS:
A tragic story of an OSAS believer.

Hooked on Sin & OSAS:
Out Of Darkness | NO Eternal Security | Christian Testimony​

#2. "OSAS and the Parable Problem."

OSAS cannot be made into a parable (or real world example).
Jesus many times illustrated spiritual truth by way of real world examples or parables. It is kind of odd that one of the most important teachings in the Bible cannot in any way be demonstrated by way of a real world example. That's because such a doctrine does not exist within the Scriptures.​

#3. "Majority of the Bible has to go ignored."

Tons of warnings in Scripture have to be twisted beyond their plain straight forward meaning in order to make OSAS work. We are not talking about just one or two verses here, but we are talking about the bulk of the entire BIble itself that testifies against OSAS. Here is a long list of verses refuting OSAS:

http://www.christianforums.com/thre...g-and-unbiblical.7909397/page-6#post-68646262​

#4. "My dealings with certain OSAS proponents."

My many dealings with OSAS proponents (Not all) have been less than loving or nice. Please take note that I am not talking about all OSAS proponents but a select few; Also take note I am not setting out to attack anyone here specifically; I am speaking of people anonymously so as to attack the belief and not a person. Anyways, I have been banned for standing against OSAS. I have been called Jason666, and wolf. I have been called some pretty nasty stuff. They even said I was not saved. Yet, I never did such things to them. I was never nasty to them or called them names, etc. Only a few have been nice and it was usually those who believed in the lighter version of OSAS (Who defended the idea that a believer cannot live in a lifestyle of sin and be saved).​

#5. "OSAS ignores morality on some level."

Even in the light version of OSAS: We learn that it denies that a believer can never stop sinning and or they can never be perfect. Yet Jesus told the woman caught in the act of adultery to: "sin no more." Jesus said for us to be ye perfect as the Heavenly Father is perfect. The Father is perfect because He is holy and without sin. On the darker side of OSAS, or what is known as Antinomianism, we learn that a believer can abide in serious unrepentant sins like murder, hate, adultery, theft, etc. and still be saved. This is essentially a license to sin whereby it ignores God's moral laws. It is essentially no different than one being a sociopath or sociopathic.​

#6. "The Dark Origins Story of OSAS."

OSAS has it's origins in the gnostic belief in the 1st epistle of John. It also can be found in the teachings of St. Augustine which was later promoted by Calvin.​

#7. "OSAS / Antinomianism and the Those Bad Guys Mentioned in Scripture."

OSAS believers who think they can do evil and still be saved fits the description of those in 2 Timothy 3:1-9 and Jude. Coincidence? Please take note that I am not speaking about all OSAS proponents here (But a select few in the generic sense).​

Anyways, I hope this helps folks to see where I am coming from.
May God bless you.
And please be well.


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[Bible Highlighter]

All men are born in sin and left alone can do nothing to change that nature. Once God intercedes, there is an irresistible and permanent change that takes a man who was once a slave to sin and releases him from that prison. The now spiritually capable man, driven by the Holy Spirit, is able to now see the nature he was once a slave to and gives his life over to God. A man will still fall prey to sin due to the temptation of this world but not because he loves sin like his old self. The process in which one is made more holy, more Christ like, can take a lifetime. Luckily for us, man is not alone in this spiritual journey.

So you believe you can sin and still be saved? If that is what you are saying, it just doesn't work like that. So if that is the case, then this would be an ignoring of God's moral laws. For if one does evil, they are not the hero but they are the villain of the story. For you have to realize that God is Holy and God is good and He will not tolerate willful rebellion done against Him. If He did, then it would make God just as guilty for being a party to a person's rebellion or sin; And that's just not possible.


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[John Robie]

If a saint believes future sin is forgiven them, then this would mean they will always remain spiritually holy and pure, just as they were the day they were saved, even if they would turn to sexual immorality, drunkenness, theft, idolatry, lying, murder, etc.

But the Bible teaches that only past sins for a believer are cleansed.

"if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins." (2 Peter 1:9).

But the Bible teaches that if a believer does not forgive, they will not be forgiven (Matthew 6:15).
The Bible teaches that if a believer hates his brother then they have no eternal life abiding in them (1 John 3:15).
The Bible teaches if we willfully sin after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sin (Hebrews 10:26).
The Bible teaches that if a believer were to look upon a woman in lust, they could be potentially be cast into Gehenna, i.e. the Lake of Fire (Matthew 5:28-29).

Is a believer automatically pure and holy because of Christ's sacrifice? No.

"Do not share in the sins of others. Keep yourself pure. (1 Timothy 5:22)

"Therefore, beloved, seeing that you look for such things, be diligent that you may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless" (2 Peter 3:14).

Without holiness, no man shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14).

Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. (Luke 13:24).

He that covers his sins shall not prosper: but whosoever confesses and forsakes them shall have mercy (Proverbs 28:13).

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (1 John 1:9).

But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanses us from all sin. (1 John 1:7).


...

You need to work on your interpretation of scripture. You don't take what it says in context. Or you just flat out say that it says something other than what it does. Things like "the bible says if a believer does this..." and the verse says nothing about what you say it does. That is poor exegesis and is disingenuous.

 

[GillDouglas]

So you believe you can sin and still be saved? If that is what you are saying, it just doesn't work like that. So if that is the case, then this would be an ignoring of God's moral laws. For if one does evil, they are not the hero but they are the villain of the story. For you have to realize that God is Holy and God is good and He will not tolerate willful rebellion done against Him. If He did, then it would make God just as guilty for being a party to a person's rebellion or sin; And that's just not possible.


....

Yes, I still sin in thought and action. I hate it, but it happens. I am only righteous because of Christ, and the only good in me is the Holy Spirit. I always ask for His forgiveness and to continue to work in me so that someday I may never sin again, but that's not going to happen until I die and completely shed the flesh that my old self clings to. If you're saying that you're saved and do not sin, you must believe in sinless perfectionism which I find to be impossible.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You need to work on your interpretation of scripture. You don't take what it says in context. Or you just flat out say that it says something other than what it does. Things like "the bible says if a believer does this..." and the verse says nothing about what you say it does. That is poor exegesis and is disingenuous.

We can discuss it if you like.

 

[John Robie]

We can discuss it if you like.

I don't think we can. But we can try.

Pick a verse that you believe supports your view, quote it in its entirety, and give what you think is a reasonable explanation. Then we can go from there.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I don't think we can. But we can try.

Pick a verse that you believe supports your view, quote it in its entirety, and give what you think is a reasonable explanation. Then we can go from there.

Matthew 6:15
"But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."

The context can be read here:

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+6

...

 

[John Robie]

Okay. And?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Yes, I still sin in thought and action. I hate it, but it happens. I am only righteous because of Christ, and the only good in me is the Holy Spirit. I always ask for His forgiveness and to continue to work in me so that someday I may never sin again, but that's not going to happen until I die and completely shed the flesh that my old self clings to. If you're saying that you're saved and do not sin, you must believe in sinless perfectionism which I find to be impossible.

Ever study 1 Peter 4:1 and Galatians 5:24? Do you think Jesus was lying to the woman caught in the act adultery when he said to her to: "sin no more"?


...

 

[John Robie]

Matthew 6:15
"But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."

The context can be read here:

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+6

...

Still waiting for your thoughts on this.

 

[faroukfarouk]

Yes, I still sin in thought and action. I hate it, but it happens. I am only righteous because of Christ, and the only good in me is the Holy Spirit. I always ask for His forgiveness and to continue to work in me so that someday I may never sin again, but that's not going to happen until I die and completely shed the flesh that my old self clings to. If you're saying that you're saved and do not sin, you must believe in sinless perfectionism which I find to be impossible.

John's First Epistle speaks of the blood of Christ continuously cleansing the believer from all sin. It's certainly not the case, as some would have us believe, that currently I'm saved, then if I allow a bobo at lunchtime I'm lost again, then maybe if I'm successful enough I might be saved again by supper time, and then wait and see how 'good' I am tomorrow. In fact the believer's entire dependence is on the Person and work of the Lord Jesus at the Cross.

 

[John Robie]

John's First Epistle speaks of the blood of Christ continuously cleansing the believer from all sin. It's certainly not the case, as some would have us believe, that currently I'm saved, then if I allow a bobo at lunchtime I'm lost again, then maybe if I'm successful enough I might be saved again by supper time, and then wait and see how 'good' I am tomorrow. In fact the believer's entire dependence is on the Person and work of the Lord Jesus at the Cross.

It would be depressing to live like that. Maybe that's why folks that believe every sin leads to a loss of salvation seem so bitter.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Still waiting for your thoughts on this.

Who is Jesus speaking to in Matthew 6:15? Is it the believer or the unbeliever? Well, seeing we know that unbelievers cannot be forgiven by merely forgiving others, we have to conclude that Jesus is speaking to believers in Matthew 6:15. This means that Jesus believes that if a believer does not forgive, then they will not be forgiven. Certainly this verse here is not teaching Once Saved Always Saved. This verse is teaching us that there is a Condition (Which is just one of the many verses in Scripture that teaches the Biblical concept of Conditional Salvation).


....

 

[John Robie]

Who is Jesus speaking to in Matthew 6:15? Is it the believer or the unbeliever? Well, seeing we know that unbelievers cannot be forgiven by merely forgiving others, we have to conclude that Jesus is speaking to believers in Matthew 6:15. This means that Jesus believes that if a believer does not forgive, then they will not be forgiven. Certainly this verse here is not teaching Once Saved Always Saved. This verse is teaching us that there is a Condition. Hence, which is just one of the many verses in Scripture that teaches the Biblical concept of Conditional Salvation.


....

Okay. Good start. Are believers in Christ?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

John's First Epistle speaks of the blood of Christ continuously cleansing the believer from all sin. It's certainly not the case, as some would have us believe, that currently I'm saved, then if I allow a bobo at lunchtime I'm lost again, then maybe if I'm successful enough I might be saved again by supper time, and then wait and see how 'good' I am tomorrow. In fact the believer's entire dependence is on the Person and work of the Lord Jesus at the Cross.

The 1st epistle of John teaches Conditionalism and not OSAS.

1 John 1:9 says IF we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1 John 1:7 says IF we walk in the light as he is in the light, the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin.
1 John 2:4 says, he that says I know Him and keeps not his commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him.
1 John 3:15 says, whosever hates his brother is a murderer and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

....

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Okay. Good start. Are believers in Christ?

If you were to keep reading in verse 16, Jesus excludes the hypocrites (i.e. false believers). So no. Jesus is talking to the saved believer. If Jesus was talking to an unsaved believer, it would not do them any good to forgive if they do not repent of their sins and get their heart right with Christ (God). A false believer is the same as an unbeliever. God does not consider someone a believer if they do not believe or have faith (even if they pretend to be religious or act like they know Christ).


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[John Robie]

If you were to keep reading in verse 16, Jesus excludes the hypocrites (i.e. false believers). So no. Jesus is talking to the saved believer. If Jesus was talking to an unsaved believer, it would not do them any good to forgive if they do not repent of their sins and get their heart right with Christ (God). A false believer is the same as an unbeliever.


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You are creating categories that scripture doesn't support (unsaved believer).

But let me try this. Is a saved person considered to be in Christ?