How is Once Saved Always Saved not a license to sin? (moved)

[Bible Highlighter]

What makes you think an unrepentant person is saved in the first place? Why would someone who has been regenerated by the Holy Spirit and is indwelt by the Holy Spirit want to continue to sin?

I realize the moderators will make up some bogus excuse to suspend me again for this, but it sounds like your problem isn't with the Biblical doctrine of eternal security, but with a misunderstanding of the regeneration that takes place when one is saved and the work the Holy Spirit does in the heart of a born again believer.

First, it's okay. If I was Moderator, I would not suspend you for what you said. Nor do I find anything you said to me offensive in any way as if it was some kind of personal attack. So we are all good. Now, if you called me names and or talked about how I am not saved, then that would be different.

Second, I understand where you are coming from. Correct me if I am wrong, but from what you have written here, I am getting the impression that you believe all saved born again believers endure in their faith to the end. That it is impossible for a born again believer to be saved for only a short time? Is this correct? If so, then what do you make of all the conditional warnings to the believer in the Bible? What do you make of all the verses that talk about how we can fall away? Granted, I can understand how maybe one or two verses could be misunderstood (if that was the only verses we were talking about here), but the sheer number of verses that refute Eternal Security is just to numerous to ignore. Nor does God regenerate only those he knew would endure in their faith to the end, either. God has to honor His Word. If a person repents of their sins and desires to accept Jesus, the Lord our God has to honor that request if His Word is to be true and trust-worthy (even if they were to later stop following Jesus).

Third, I never suggested that an unrepentant believer was ever saved. But I do believe there are believers who have repented of their sins initially (being saved) and then later in time, they simply fell away from the faith (going back to an unsaved state) because of the pleasures of this world or because they apostatized.

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[FreeGrace2]

What makes you think an unrepentant person is saved in the first place? Why would someone who has been regenerated by the Holy Spirit and is indwelt by the Holy Spirit want to continue to sin?

I realize the moderators will make up some bogus excuse to suspend me again for this, but it sounds like your problem isn't with the Biblical doctrine of eternal security, but with a misunderstanding of the regeneration that takes place when one is saved and the work the Holy Spirit does in the heart of a born again believer.

Paul was quite clear about the fact that the believer always has a choice of whom to present themselves as slaves to obey; whether to sin, or to righteousness.

Rom 6:16 - Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?

The idea that a regenerated person will not desire sin is not taught in Scripture. What is taught is that we have a choice between sin and obedience as to whom we will obey.

Further, Paul commands believers to be filled with the Spirit (Eph 5:18) and walk by means of the Spirit (Gal 5:16). And to stop grieving the Spirit (Eph 4:30) and stop quenching the Spirit (1 Thess 5:19).

Within these verses are the keys to the Christian life and spiritual growth. Or not. Depending upon which we choose.

 

[South Bound]

First, it's okay. If I was Moderator, I would not suspend you for what you said. Nor do I find anything you said to me offensive in any way as if it was some kind of personal attack. So we are all good. Now, if you called me names and or talked about how I am not saved, then that would be different.

I was recently suspended for a week for having the unmitigated gall to point out that a poster was confusing two different things. Oh, the horror! Stop me before I kill again!

I am getting the impression that you believe all saved born again believers endure in their faith to the end.

I believe the Bible's teaching that they're preserved to the end, yes.

That it is impossible for a born again believer to be saved for only a short time?

That would imply that Jesus was unable to keep that which the Father gave Him, which is not true.

If so, then what do you make of all the conditional warnings to the believer in the Bible?

You mean the ones you don't cite?

What do you make of all the verses that talk about how we can fall away?

Cite them.

Granted, I can understand how maybe one or two verses could be misunderstood (if that was the only verses we were talking about here), but the sheer number of verses that refute Eternal Security is just to numerous to ignore.

And I choose to believe the numerous verses that state that God's promise of salvation is true and that He does not break His promises.

Nor does God regenerate only those he knew would endure in their faith to the end, either. God has to honor His Word. If a person repents of their sins and desires to accept Jesus, the Lord our God has to honor that request if His Word is to be true and trust-worthy (even if they were to later stop following Jesus).

First of all, where on Earth did you get the idea that "accepting Jesus" saves anybody? The Bible never tells us to accept Jesus. To the contrary, we're told in scripture that it's Jesus' prerogative to accept or reject us.

Second, how can one repent unless he's first regenerated?

Third, I never suggested that an unrepentant believer was ever saved.

Actually, you did when you stated that they live in unrepentant sin.

But I do believe there are believers who have repented of their sins initially (being saved) and then later in time, they simply fell away from the faith (going back to an unsaved state) because of the pleasures of this world or because they apostatized.

Yes, they're called tares and false converts and are not saved.

 

[South Bound]

[QUOTE="FreeGrace2]The idea that a regenerated person will not desire sin is not taught in Scripture. What is taught is that we have a choice between sin and obedience as to whom we will obey. [/quote]

Actually, it's taught quite frequently in scripture, most notably in 1 John.

Otherwise, what's the point of receiving a new nature that is no different than the old one?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I was recently suspended for a week for having the unmitigated gall to point out that a poster was confusing two different things. Oh, the horror! Stop me before I kill again!

Yeah, I know what you mean. I do not agree with the whole "goading" rules thing here. For one, it is not Biblical. Even Stephen goaded those who stoned him. Second, in most cases, asking questions is not the same as an accusation (And yet I have been banned for a day for simply asking a question to see if a person believed in Antinomianism or not). Third, they are going to lose more people here than keep them if such a rule was enforced to the fullest extent or if they do not change things. People are going to naturally ask questions that may make others a little uncomfortable. Granted, there are some inappropriate questions; For example: Suggesting that a person is a child abuser out of the blue, etc. so as to mud-sling would be inappropriate. But asking a general question about the Theology of a person's belief so as to ascertain the truth? Why should a person be banned for trying to discover what a person actually believes? Why should a person be banned for pointing out the flaw in their beliefs? Now, if they were to insult them or be hateful towards them personally, then that would be different. Believers are supposed to love one another.

I believe the Bible's teaching that they're preserved to the end, yes.

It may be of small consolation to you, but I do beleive the "Elect" or "Those who have root in God's Word" endure to the end of their faith. However, I do not believe all born again believers endure in their faith, though. The Parable of the Sower makes this evident (Along with many other verses). In the Parable of the Sower, the person who did not receive the seed of the Word in their heart (whereby the wicked one stole the seed out of their heart) is an unbeliever. They did not receive the seed of Word in their hearts with joy like the other three. Those who receive God's Word in their heart are believers (who are born again). Being "born of water" is in reference to the Word of God (See Ephesians 5:25-26 with a special focus on verse 26). One endured in the faith and produced much fruit. The other two fell away from the faith for a certain cause or reason.

That would imply that Jesus was unable to keep that which the Father gave Him, which is not true.

As for John 6:37-40. This is what the passasge says,

John 6:37-40

37 "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."

First, what does Jesus mean by,

“All that the Father giveth me come to me?”

Well, we have to understand that the Father elects those based on His future foreknowledge of our free will choice concerning Him (1 Peter 1:2) (Deuteronomy 30:19). Also, we also have to understand that not everyone is going to be saved; However, it is God's will that all people should be saved, though (1 Timothy 2:4) (2 Peter 3:9) (Revelation 22:17). This is why we read in Scripture about how many are called, but few are chosen (Matthew 20:16).

Same meanings since all are given the chance to have life through Jesus. But those who are His have come so willingly in faith, repenting and turning with a sincere heart; forever to the submission of God’s commandments and desires.

Verse 39 implies that it is possible for Jesus to lose some of the flock. If it were not so, He would have said so. But if what you say is true, then Jesus would have said,

"I WILL lose nothing."

However, that is not what Jesus said. Jesus says,

"I SHOULD lose nothing."

John 6:39

"And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day."

You can double check it for yourself here,

John 6 KJV

Second, eternal life here is not a guarantee. Jesus says in verse 40

"MAY have everlasting life".

John 6:40

"And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him,may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."

In other words, Jesus should lose none and all who are His should be raised, because they should all continue in the righteousness God gave them through the sacrifice of Jesus. It’s not that Jesus isn’t capable of keeping up with His sheep; it’s that He never keeps His sheep against their wills. How so?

Well, we see in Scripture that the Father gave all of the disciples to Jesus; However, Jesus kept them all except Judas, though.

John 17:12 - "While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled."

Now, allow me to rephrase this in modern-terminology:
While I was with the marbles in the world, I kept them. Those marbles that you gave me I kept, and none are lost, but the green marble.

And OSAS terminology:
While I was with the marbles in the world, I kept them. Those marbles that you gave me I kept, and none are lost, except for the green marble that you never gave me.

Do you see now how OSAS doesn't make any sense?


Source Used:
http://conditionalsalvation.com/yahoo_site_admin/assets/docs/Eternal_Security.2593556.pdf

You mean the ones you don't cite?

Cite them.

Long List of Verses Refuting OSAS:

http://www.christianforums.com/thre...g-and-unbiblical.7909397/page-6#post-68646262

List of Verses Showing a Believer Can Fall Away From the Faith:

http://www.christianforums.com/thre...nse-to-sin-moved.7902727/page-3#post-68482547

And I choose to believe the numerous verses that state that God's promise of salvation is true and that He does not break His promises.

Which I believe are taken out of context by ignoring the many warnings in Scripture to the believer.

First of all, where on Earth did you get the idea that "accepting Jesus" saves anybody? The Bible never tells us to accept Jesus. To the contrary, we're told in scripture that it's Jesus' prerogative to accept or reject us.

Free will is a choice that leads you down a path that determines which road you want to take. If you choose the red pill, it will lead you into seeking the truth. If you choose the blue pill, you can believe, whatever you want to believe.

Free Will in the Bible:

#1. Joshua 24:15 KJV -
"Choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve"

#2. Matthew 11:28 KJV -
"Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest."

#3. John 7:17 KJV -
"If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God."

#4. John 7:37 KJV -
"If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink."

#5. Acts 2:38 KJV -
"Repent, and let everyone of you be baptized"

#6. Acts 3:19 KJV -
"Repent therefore and be converted"

#7. Acts 16:31 KJV -
"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved"

#8. Acts 17:30 KJV -
"but now commands all men everywhere to repent"

#9. Revelation 22:17 KJV -
"Whoever wills, let him take the water of life freely."

#10. Genesis 4:7 KJV -
"If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him."

If a person did not choose or reject God at any point, then the wicked could not be blamed for their actions at a Judgment because they had no choice in the matter and God just made them to be evil. But this would be impossible because there is no darkness in the Lord; And God is good.

Second, how can one repent unless he's first regenerated?

Actually, the Scriptures say the opposite. 2 Corinthians 7:10 says, "For godly sorrow works repentance to salvation not to be regretted: but the sorrow of the world works death."

Therefore, repentance leads to salvation and not salvation leading to repentance.

"Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out," (Acts 3:19).

Actually, you did when you stated that they live in unrepentant sin.

I was stating what they believed and not what I believed. Big difference.

Yes, they're called tares and false converts and are not saved.

No. Actually, they are the seed who fell among thorns or seed that fell among rocky ground. You cannot fall away from something that you never had. I cannot depart Houston airport if I was never in Houston. I cannot fall down a flight of stairs yesterday if I was never near any stairs yesterday. I cannot lose your book if you never let me borrow it. I have to possess something in order to lose it or to fall away or depart from it.

Hebrews 3:12
"Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God."


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[South Bound]

nt

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Good for you, kid. If you want to believe you can lose your salvation, then that's between you and Jesus, I guess.

Well, I am not a kid. I am in my 40's. I am also not new to the Scriptures, either. Furthermore, it's not how I want things to be, either. It is simply what the Bible says. I once considered OSAS to be true for a very short time (When I did not know any better). It wasn't until I investigated the Scriptures and being honest with myself that I discovered that such a doctrine is simply not true. In fact, the more I studied this topic, the more it strengthened my belief that OSAS is false. Take for example, Matthew 6:15. Do you believe Jesus said this to the believer or the unbeliever? If Jesus said this to the unbeliever, it would do them no good to forgive anyone because they would first need to repent and accept Jesus to be saved. So this was said to the believer (Which means that a believer can be unforgiven if they do not forgive).

Personally, I lost interest in having this discussion when you showed that you're not above purposely taking verses out of context.

This is the common response that I get. It is rare that there is an extensive discussion of the verses that I bring forth. You either want to discuss the Scriptures or you don't. It's as simple as that.

As for me, I'm going to continue to believe the promises of God and believe in a Savior who has promised that He will preserve me to the end.

I do not believe you are seeing those Promises correctly. This to me is more serious than you care to admit or realize. Narrow is the gate. Not wide is the gate. Most people see what they want to see so as to be comforted in their own mind. But what we want to be true, does not make it so. For if what you say is true, then you should have no problem illustrating your belief by way of a real world example. Can you do that? My bet is that you cannot because I have asked others in the past to do so and they could not provide one. This is important because Jesus illustrated spiritual truths by way of real world examples (i.e. parables).


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[South Bound]

[QUOTE="Jason0047]I once considered OSAS to be true for a very short time (When I did not know any better).[/quote]

And it's childish little insults like this that make me feel justified in my decision not to pursue this with you.

It wasn't until I investigated the Scriptures and being honest with myself that I discovered that such a doctrine is simply not true. In fact, the more I studied this topic, the more it strengthened my belief that OSAS is false. Take for example, Matthew 6:15. Do you believe Jesus said this to the believer or the unbeliever?

Given that no one was saved at that point, how is it relevant?

If Jesus said this to the unbeliever, it would do them no good to forgive anyone because they would first need to repent and accept Jesus to be saved. So this was said to the believer (Which means that a believer can be unforgiven if they do not forgive).

Actually, He didn't say one would lose their salvation if they did not forgive.

He said they would not be forgiven if they did not forgive.

This is the common response that I get. It is rare that there is an extensive discussion of the verses that I bring forth. You either want to discuss the Scriptures or you don't. It's as simple as that.

I love to discuss the scriptures and I believe I've demonstrated that here many, many times. The problem is that you've shown, by the number of verses you've quoted out of context, that you're not interested in discussing the scriptures, but just in trying to win an argument.

I do not believe you are seeing those Promises correctly.

Sorry you feel that way.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

And it's childish little insults like this that make me feel justified in my decision not to pursue this with you.

"I once considered OSAS to be true for a very short time (When I did not know any better)."

It's not meant to be an insult. I am merely being honest and or stating the truth. I am merely recounting the things I learned over the years in God's Word with the LORD. I was not as experienced in the Scriptures when I first learned of OSAS. After I learned about it, I have only grown in finding more verses that refute it and I did not find any verses that support it. Please do not take offense. I was not trying to offend you or act like I know everything. But I also cannot unlearn what I have been taught by the Spirit, either. But if you are passionate in what you believe, then lets discuss it like gentlemen.


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[South Bound]

It's not meant to be an insult.

Of course it was.

I am merely being honest and or stating the truth. I was not as experienced in the Scriptures when I first learned of OSAS. After I learned about it, I have only grown in finding more verses that refute it and I did not find any verses that support it.

At 48 years old, I've been studying the scriptures for twenty-five years now and SBTS seems pretty satisfied with my understanding of the scriptures. And yet, I am more convinced than ever that God is faithful, Christ is able, and that the Biblical doctrine of eternal security are true.


....[/QUOTE]

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Of course it was.

No it wasn't. An insult would be me bringing up your personal life in some way so as to push you down in the mud. I am merely recounting my experience. That was all. If it came off as condescending, that was not my intention.

At 48 years old, I've been studying the scriptures for twenty-five years now and SBTS seems pretty satisfied with my understanding of the scriptures. And yet, I am more convinced than ever that God is faithful, Christ is able, and that the Biblical doctrine of eternal security are true.

A Pastor of 13 and a half years had changed his mind.

http://www.behindthebadge.net/osas/osas59.html

A man who accepted the Lord at a young age, later had wandered in the wilderness for 25 years and came back to the LORD.

http://www.anointedlinks.com/once_saved.html

Here are some other testimonies.

http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/paul.htm



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[South Bound]

[QUOTE="Jason0047]A Pastor of 13 and a half years had changed his mind.

http://www.behindthebadge.net/osas/osas59.html

A man who accepted the Lord at a young age, later had wandered in the wilderness for 25 years and came back to the LORD.

http://www.anointedlinks.com/once_saved.html

Here are some other testimonies.

http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/paul.htm



...[/QUOTE]

Don't care. I base my doctrine on the Word of God, not anecdotal evidence.

 

[South Bound]

[QUOTE="Jason0047]A Pastor of 13 and a half years had changed his mind.

http://www.behindthebadge.net/osas/osas59.html

A man who accepted the Lord at a young age, later had wandered in the wilderness for 25 years and came back to the LORD.

http://www.anointedlinks.com/once_saved.html

Here are some other testimonies.

http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/paul.htm



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Don't care. I base my doctrine on the Word of God, not anecdotal evidence.

I did read the second one, though. It sounds like he doesn't really understand what regeneration is. He says he had a religious experience, but then walked away for 25 years. How in the world is that evidence of salvation?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Don't care. I base my doctrine on the Word of God, not anecdotal evidence.

They are not merely recounting their experiences but they offer many verses, too.


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[Bible Highlighter]

I did read the second one, though. It sounds like he doesn't really understand what regeneration is. He says he had a religious experience, but then walked away for 25 years. How in the world is that evidence of salvation?

He said he accepted the LORD, are you saying that people who accept the LORD are not saved initially? How exactly does that work? Do you tell new converts that they are not saved?

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[Bible Highlighter]

I can also testify myself. I used to be an atheist. I then accepted the LORD as my Savior and it was like a light had went on in my life. I started to change and be different and told everyone I could about Jesus. I then later fell back into the ways of the world. Yes, I always believed in Jesus, but my life no longer reflected that belief. I was doing certain sinful things with no real remorse. I did not live for God but I lived for myself and my goals and dreams. I also desired to be mega rich (Which is not Biblical). But then I renewed my faith in the LORD shortly before I met my Christian fiance who lives half way around the world. Anyways, I knew that if I were to have died during the time I was not living for God, I would not have been saved. For a person cannot serve two masters. For he will hate the one and love the other.


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[Bible Highlighter]

What are some of the really bad fruits of OSAS?

George Sodini. He believed in OSAS very strongly. Yet he turned out to be a mass murderer.

http://eternalsecurity.us/george_sodini.htm


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[South Bound]

He said he accepted the LORD, are you saying that people who accept the LORD are not saved initially?

The Bible doesn't say anything about "accepting the Lord" so, no, I don't see how "accepting the Lord" saves someone.

What I very clearly said is that he claims to have had a religious experience but then, by his own admission, spent twenty-five years living as someone who was unsaved.

How exactly does that work?

Oh, it's very simple, really. First I say something and then you twist it and attribute words to me that I didn't say, and then I put you on ignore...

Do you tell new converts that they are not saved?

If they're not converted we do. We certainly don't tell them something silly like that they are saved by "accepting the Lord".

If they say something like "I think I'm saved because I accepted the Lord", then we ask them questions to find out what they mean by that, if they understand their sin and the wrath that is on sinners, if they repented of their sin, if they understand that salvation is of the Lord and not of any merit on our part, if they received by faith Christ's vicarious, atoning sacrifice, etc. But we would never just declare somebody saved or unsaved without observing them to see whether or not they present the fruits of salvation.

 

[South Bound]

What are some of the really bad fruits of OSAS?

George Sodini. He believed in OSAS very strongly. Yet he turned out to be a mass murderer.

http://eternalsecurity.us/george_sodini.htm


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Yes, this is a logical fallacy commonly known as "guilt by association".

1. Hitler was kind to puppies.
2. You have probably been kind to puppies.
3. You are a Nazi.

See how that works?

 

[civilwarbuff]

Is a Christian infallible to where they will never sin? Will a saved person never commit a sin either conscious or not?