How is Once Saved Always Saved not a license to sin? (moved)

[John Robie]

I am not answering it because it is a loaded question based on a false assumption or premise that ignores the context that I just provided.

For why are you ignoring the context that I have brought up? Does it maybe have to do with the fact that it refutes your question?

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It is not a false premise.

29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. - Romans 8:29-30

It says right there that He has predestined those He foreknew to be confirmed to the image of His son. If any of those He predestined to be conformed could fall away, either God is a liar, or He's incompetent.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

It is not a false premise.

29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. - Romans 8:29-30

It says right there that He has predestined those He foreknew to be confirmed to the image of His son. If any of those He predestined to be conformed could fall away, either God is a liar, or He's incompetent.

When looking at the whole of Scripture: Those who are conformed to the image of His Son are those who ACTUALLY conform to the image of His Son by their living righteously as Christ did. The Word of God here is speak of the "Elect" who endure in the faith to the End and not all born again believers (Whose seed did not produce much fruit).


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[John Robie]

The context of (in view of looking at the whole of Scripture): are those who are conformed to the image of His Son are those who ACTUALLY conform to the image of His Son by their living righteously as Christ did. The Word of God here is speak of the "Elect" who endure in the faith to the End and not all born again believers (Whose seed did not produce much fruit).


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That is not what the text says. It says that He predestined them to conform themselves. It is not beneficial to change the meaning of the text.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

That is not what the text says. It says that He predestined them to conform themselves. It is not beneficial to change the meaning of the text.

Scripture has to be read as a whole.

"This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind, Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness. But ye have not so learned Christ; If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another. Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath: Neither give place to the devil." (Ephesians 4:17-27).

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[Bible Highlighter]

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will. (Ephesians 1:3-5).


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[John Robie]

Scripture has to be read as a whole.

"This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind, Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness. But ye have not so learned Christ; If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another. Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath: Neither give place to the devil." (Ephesians 4:17-27).

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That has nothing to do with my point or the text. Should we attempt to live sinlessly? Sure. But we also should trust the fact that He as predestined us believers to be conformed. If we can lose our salvation, that promise cannot be relied on.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

That has nothing to do with my point or the text. Should we attempt to live sinlessly? Sure. But we also should trust the fact that He as predestined us believers to be conformed. If we can lose our salvation, that promise cannot be relied on.

1 Peter 4:1 says they that have suffered in the flesh have ceased from sin. Galatians 5:24 says they that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts. Also, a believer can fall away from the faith. See Hebrews 3:12-14, Hebrews 10:26, Hebrews 10:38-39, Romans 11:20-22.


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[John Robie]

1 Peter 4:1 says they that have suffered in the flesh have ceased from sin. Galatians 5:24 says they that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts. Also, a believer can fall away from the faith. See Hebrews 3:12-14, Hebrews 10:26, Hebrews 10:38-39, Romans 11:20-22.


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And you still haven't dealt with my point. Is God a liar, incompetent, or should we trust that He will conform believers to the image of His Son?

 

[FreeGrace2]

So a believer can die in unrepentant sin like lying, murder, hate, adultery and still be saved?

That's what I proved.

I disagree strongly. Christ (God) cannot abide within a person who sins and or rebels against Him (because He is holy); And salvation (or life) is a person named Jesus Christ. For he that has the Son has life and he that does not have the Son does not have life (1 John 5:12).

Paul gave 2 commands in this regard: stop grieving the Holy Sprit (Eph 4:30) and stop quenching the Holy Spirit (1 Thess 5:19). So your conclusion is not supported by Scripture.

No. If your interpretation on these verses is in conclusion that ALL people (even the saints) are going to sin, then you also have to conclude that there is nobody that has any understanding or that nobody seeks after God, too.

"There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God." (Romans 3:11).

Why? I strongly disagree with your "conclusion" about my views. Of course everyone sins. Paul SAID so, as I proved.

I said this:
"Yes, because at the moment of belief in Christ, the beilever becomes a child of God. There is no evidence that God will "undo" this new birth."

Not true.

"Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;" (Hebrews 3:12-14).

To "depart from the living God" cannot mean to have one's new birth reversed or undone. It means to rebel against Him, exactly like the prodigal son, who LEFT (departed) His father.

"Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off." (Romans 11:20-22).

This has nothing to do with loss of salvation, though seems to be one of the "proof texts" for those who reject eternal security. The farming metaphor is about service. Just as a farmer will cast off useless branches, so God will not use those of His children who are useless for His service.

"For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins." (Hebrews 10:26).

Know why this is true? Because Christ died for ALL sins. Every last one of them. So there remains NO MORE sacrifice for sins. He already paid for all of them.

One aspect of faith is belief.

"For faith is the substance of things hoped for." (Hebrews 11:1).

And in one's faith, if they draw back, God will take no pleasure in them. They must believe to the saving of their soul.

You're conflating one's initial trust in Christ for salvation with the on-going day to day faith in God for one's life. The example is the Exodus generation. They were believers and therefore saved, per 1 Cor 1:1-4. But they failed the tests repeatedly. While they were saved, they didn't believe that God would sustain them in the desert.

No. In the bulk of Romans 7, Paul is speaking from his perspective a Jew who obeyed the Law of Moses before he was a Christian. This is evident if you were to compare Romans 7:14 where he says he is "sold under sin" and in Romans 8:2 where he says he is "free from sin." Romans 7 ends with the solution (That solution is Jesus Christ).

Wrong. All of Romans 7 is in the present tense. Paul was speaking about his life NOW (as he was writing the epistle).

What happened to the seed that fell to that was choked by the thorns and or fell on rocky ground? What kind of people is this comparing it to? Are the Holy Scriptures primarily a spiritual guidance of telling us about unbelievers or believers?

The parable of the soils is about production. First soil were unbelievers; they never believed. The other soils all believed but only the 4th soil produced. The other 2 were defeated by distractions and temptations.

But is correction really an effective method for those who just want to serve two masters?...

If what I pointed out isn't enough motivation, then God will take them home. And they will spend eternity knowing that they forfeited all their eternal reward. They'll be there, but they won't have what they lost.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

If believers can live a lifestyle of sin and or get away with certain serious sins like adultery, theft, and hate etc and still be saved. then how do you explain passages like this?

1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.

2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,

3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,

4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;

5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,

7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.

9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as their's also was." (2 Timothy 3:1-9).


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[Bible Highlighter]

And passages like this?

"Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him," (1 John 3:15).

19 "And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God." (John 3:19-21).

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[John Robie]

If believers can live a lifestyle of sin and or get away with certain serious sins like adultery, theft, and hate etc and still be saved. then how do you explain passages like this?

1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.

2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,

3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,

4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;

5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,

7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.

9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as their's also was." (2 Timothy 3:1-9).


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There's no indication that Paul was talking about believers, past or present.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

What about when Paul said this?

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

Or what about when Peter said this?

"But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, ...."

"Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children" (2 Peter 2:1) (2 Peter 2:14).


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[John Robie]

What about when Paul said this?

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

Or what about when Peter said this?

"But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, ...."

"Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children" (2 Peter 2:1) (2 Peter 2:14).


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And what does this have to do with believers?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Paul also said....

"Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?" (2 Corinthians 13:5).


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[Bible Highlighter]

And what does this have to do with believers?

Paul is characterizing how believers would be. He is saying that they profess that they know God but they deny Him in works. This is the same thing said by John elsewhere (essentially).

1 John 2:3-4 says,

"And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."


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[John Robie]

Paul is characterizing how believers would be. He is saying that they profess that they know God but they deny Him in works. This is the same thing said by John elsewhere (essentially).

1 John 2:3-4 says,

"And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."


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Exactly. These are NOT believers. John also said

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us. - 1 John 2:19

If they leave, they were never saved.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Paul also said...

"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing," (1 Timothy 6:3-4).


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[Bible Highlighter]

Exactly. These are NOT believers. John also said

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us. - 1 John 2:19

If they leave, they were never saved.

No. In 1 John 2:1, John addresses them as "Little children" (brethren). He is writing his epistle to believers here and not unbelievers.

John says, in verse 2 (making a distinction between believer and unbeliever by saying): "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."


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[John Robie]

Paul also said...

"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing," (1 Timothy 6:3-4).


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You should take that to heart and cease teaching against what Paul taught.