How is Once Saved Always Saved not a license to sin? (moved)

[Bible Highlighter]

Probably so, but that only reinforces what I said in my previous post about not taking it upon oneself to lecture on this or any other theological issue UNTIL and UNLESS you know enough about it to recognize the basis for the other side's beliefs. Even if you haven't done this already, you can easily go to the Reformed forum or Google and get all the verses you are looking for rather than wasting time.

You either want to discuss the Bible or you don't. But spiritual truth and faith is determined by Scripture. Also, I am not the only one who might read your post. Hence, why I am asking you for verses. So the ball is still in your court.


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[Albion]

You either want to discuss the Bible or you don't.

Right. And I've said that you can't reach a sensible conclusion by cherry picking the Bible. And it's wrong to denounce Eternal Security of the believer ONLY BECAUSE you have heard some uninformed individuals tell you of their own idea that "you can sin as much as you want, etc." I think both of those points are sound and other posters here have said some of the same thing.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Right. And I've said that you can't reach a sensible conclusion by cherry picking the Bible. And it's wrong to denounce Eternal Security of the believer ONLY BECAUSE you have heard some uninformed individuals tell you of their own idea that "you can sin as much as you want, etc." I think both of those points are sound and other posters here have said some of the same thing.

I am curious if you believe in another form of OSAS that I have not encountered before.

In my many years of discussion in regards to this topic, I have discovered that there are 3 different levels of OSAS.

OSAS Classic
This is the false view that you can abide in unrepentant sin and or live however you like and still be saved. Belief in Jesus is all you need to get thru the gates of Heaven.

Mid Range OSAS
This is the false view that a believer cannot live a habitual lifestyle of sin. However, abiding in one or two unrepentant sins before you die will not necessarily send you to the Lake of Fire.

OSAS Lite
This is the false view that you have to be penitent and live a holy life in order for OSAS to be true. If you do not repent and you do not live holy, then you were never born again to begin with. This view is wrong because it makes it makes you doubt the promises of God like 1 John 1:9 and James 5:19-20.

Another bad doctrine that is tied to OSAS and is popular is:

Mid Acts Dispensationalism (MAD)
This is a wrong teaching that there are two or more gospels under the New Testament. This wrong doctrine was created no doubt for people to deny the holy teachings of Jesus Christ. Which is popular among Classic OSAS proponents. For Paul's words on holiness are easier to twist than Jesus' words. However, Paul essentially said in 1 Timothy 6:3-4 that any man who speaks contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Godliness is proud and they know nothing.

Anyways, I do not what you believe in regards to OSAS. Please take note that I am not accusing or labeling you in believing a certain way. For I know that if I try to even ask if someone believes in Antinomianism, I can be banned for a day (Which is what happened recently). But a question is not the same as an accusation. It is merely to determine what they believe. So I will not ask if you believe in a certain doctrine that is wrong. Instead, I want you to explain what OSAS is to me with Scripture and how does sin and righteousness play a role in that belief.

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[Bible Highlighter]

As for your statement that implies that I am cherry picking the Bible: Well, the burden of proof is on you to show me with Scripture that this is the case. In other words, go back within this thread and explain the verses you think I am using out of context and we can discuss it in an open and friendly manner.


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[Albion]

I am curious if you believe in another form of OSAS that I have not encountered before.

In my many years of discussion in regards to this topic, I have discovered that there are 3 different levels of OSAS.

OSAS Classic
This is the false view that you can abide in unrepentant sin and or live however you like and still be saved. Belief in Jesus is all you need to get thru the gates of Heaven.

Mid Range OSAS
This is the false view that a believer cannot live a habitual lifestyle of sin. However, abiding in one or two unrepentant sins before you die will not necessarily send you to the Lake of Fire.

OSAS Lite
This is the false view that you have to be penitent and live a holy life in order for OSAS to be true. If you do not repent and you do not live holy, then you were never born again to begin with. This view is wrong because it makes it makes you doubt the promises of God like 1 John 1:9 and James 5:19-20.

Are you insisting that everything you know of "OSAS" and what it represents comes from conversations with people who have given you their personal slant on the matter?...with no attention paid to Reformed theology, the Scriptural justification for the belief, or anything educated and objective? And that you've formulated your own personal concept of "three kinds of OSAS?"

So, in answer to your questions, I'm not a dispensationalist or an antinomian, but I am persuaded that Eternal Security--properly understood--is true.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Are you insisting that everything you know of "OSAS" and what it represents comes from conversations with people who have given you their personal slant on the matter?...with no attention paid to Reformed theology, the Scriptural justification for the belief, or anything educated and objective? And that you've formulated your own personal concept of "three kinds of OSAS?"

I have talked with Calvinists before in regards to POTS (Perseverance of the Saints). This is no different than OSAS Lite. If you believe otherwise, then I would love for you to show me the difference.

, in answer to your questions, I'm not a dispensationalist or an antinomian, but I am persuaded that Eternal Security--properly understood--is true.

Care to explain how you use verses to support such a belief? Is your belief different from the following article?

http://www.ligonier.org/learn/articles/reformed-theology-vs-hyper-calvinism/

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[Albion]

I have talked with Calvinists before in regards to POTS (Perseverance of the Saints). This is no different than OSAS Lite.

It would be "OSAS" then.

The "lite" or "three kinds" stuff is just your classification of what other people have explained to you as their own beliefs, right or wrong.

Quite honestly and candidly, though, why on Earth would you put all this work into understanding "OSAS" and not go to the sources (the New Testament, Calvin's own writings, the position statements of the orthodox Reformed church bodies, etc.)?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

It would be "OSAS" then.

The "lite" or "three kinds" stuff is just your classification of what other people have explained to you as their own beliefs, right or wrong.

Quite honestly and candidly, though, why on Earth would you put all this work into understanding "OSAS" and not go to the sources (the New Testament, Calvin's own writings, the position statements of the orthodox Reformed church bodies, etc.)?

Well, for one, I do not recognize Calvin as being a reliable source when it comes to the Bible because he has a lot of wrong doctrines. Second, Calvin is not the orignator of the false doctrine known as OSAS. Augustine was the creator of it. Calvin merely pushed the false idea of OSAS and then OSAS splintered into different versions of it from there. Third, the different beliefs of OSAS are taken from real people that actually believe that way (Even though such beliefs are false).

As for POTS (Perseverance of the Saints): This is just Calvinists special exclusive label for Eternal Security or OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved). It is no different than OSAS Lite (With the exception of Hyper Calvinists who believe in Classic OSAS or Antinomianism - Which is an ignoring of God's moral laws).

The Biblical view on a believer's security in Christ (Involving Soteriology) is in support of Conditional Salvation. For there are many warnings that are given to believers with dire consequences attached if they do not obey Christ (God). Denying "Sinless Perfectionism" is merely an excuse made by a person that they are going to sin at some point in the future (As if it was their allowance to do so). However, Paul says we used to be sinners and we are not supposed to be that way anymore.

Please take note that the bulk of Romans 7 is Paul talking from the perspective of a Jew who obeyed the Law before he became a Christian. For Paul offers the solution to the problem at the end of Romans 7 and Romans 8:1; And that solution is Jesus Christ. It is evident that Paul is speaking as a Jew who obeyed the Law in the bulk of Romans 7 by the fact that Paul says he is sold under sin in Romans 7:14 and yet he then later says he is free from sin in Romans 8:2.

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[Albion]

Well, for one, I do not recognize Calvin as being a reliable source when it comes to the Bible because he has a lot of wrong doctrines. Second, Calvin is not the orignator of the false doctrine known as OSAS. Augustine was the creator of it. Calvin merely pushed the false idea of OSAS and then OSAS splintered into different versions of it from there.

Some of that I agree with, but not all. You can't just dismiss the most famous and influential proponent of any doctrine you are supposedly examining. You have to take his contentions into account, even if you wind up thinking that are defective. You can't just do that in advance and then insist to other people that those who agree with his view of things are wrong...merely because you've already decided it's so.

Third, the different beliefs of OSAS are taken from real people that actually believe that way (Even though such beliefs are false).

I understand, but doing that only leaves you with "Popular misconceptions about OSAS are in error" NOT ''OSAS is false."

As for POTS (Perseverance of the Saints): This is just Calvinists special exclusive label for Eternal Security

Yes. The terms are interchangeable.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Some of that I agree with, but not all. You can't just dismiss the most famous and influential proponent of any doctrine you are supposedly examining. You have to take his contentions into account, even if you wind up thinking that are defective. You can't just do that in advance and then insist to other people that those who agree with his view of things are wrong...merely because you've already decided it's so.

I understand, but doing that only leaves you with "Popular misconceptions about OSAS are in error" NOT ''OSAS is false."

Yes. The terms are interchangeable.

But what is your Biblical case for OSAS? What verses do you think teach it? What about all the warnings given to believers? What is that all about? Take for example Matthew 6:15. Jesus says if we do not forgive, then we will not be forgiven by the Father. This is a Condition that only applies to the believer. For it would not matter if an unbeliever were to forgive or not. They would still be unsaved because they first need to accept Christ. This means that Christ actually believed that a believer could not be forgiven if they did not forgive.


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[Albion]

But what is your Biblical case for OSAS? What verses do you think teach it? What about all the warnings given to believers? What is that all about? Take for example Matthew 6:15. Jesus says if we do not forgive, then we will not be forgiven by the Father. This is a Condition that only applies to the believer. For it would not matter if an unbeliever were to forgive or not. They would still be unsaved because they first need to accept Christ. This means that Christ actually believed that a believer could not be forgiven if they did not forgive.


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I didn't really want to be drawn steadily more into this "issue looking for a discussion," and you apparently don't want answers as much as you want an opponent. At least, that's how it looks after you've ignored repeated requests that you inform yourself about the evidence that seems to exist on both sides of the question. Without that, there can't honestly be any investigation leading to a conclusion.

There are many verses that support OSAS, just as there are verses that seem to reject it, and I'm not going to do all your homework for you. And since no one else seems willing to become your foil, this may be the end.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I didn't really want to be drawn steadily more into this "issue looking for a discussion," and you apparently don't want answers as much as you want an opponent. At least, that's how it looks after you've ignored repeated requests that you inform yourself about the evidence that seems to exist on both sides of the question. Without that, there can't honestly be any investigation leading to a conclusion.

There are many verses that support OSAS, just as there are verses that seem to reject it, and I'm not going to do all your homework for you. And since no one else seems willing to become your foil, this may be the end.

Why not answer my point about Matthew 6:15? Did Jesus say this to the believer or the unbeliever? If Jesus said this to the believer then that means the believer can be unforgiven if they do not forgive. For Jesus is not in the habit of making idle threats. Think about it.

As for you saying that I have not done my own homework on this topic: Well, that is just a false accusation. I have studied this topic more than any other in the Bible at great length. I have even considered Eternal Security as true (When I first started to study OSAS). But the more I studied, the more I realized that OSAS is false. There are more verses that support Conditional Salvation than OSAS. In addition, a whole bunch of verses have to be twisted beyond the plain straight forward meaning of what it says in order to make OSAS work, too.

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[John Robie]

Paul says in Romans 8 that believers are predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ. If a believer can somehow fall away, this will make God either a liar, or incompetent.

 

[FreeGrace2]

How is "Once Saved Always Saved" not a license to sin?

Because there is no such thing as a 'license to sin'. Sinning comes naturally, through our sin natures. Even those who reject grace and believe one does not have eternal security fall into sin. Their own views don't even prevent themselves from turning away from Christianity.

I have argued the topic of "Once Saved Always Saved" or "Eternal Security" for many years.

That's good, because the Bible teaches it.

In my many discussions on this topic on various forums, I have noticed that there are many warnings in the Bible that go ignored; In addition, the the moral issue is also ignored (in my opinion), as well.

Sounds as though you've 'repented' of your belief in OSAS. The key to the warning passages is to understand what exactly is being warning about or what is being threatened to be lost. The answer is blessings from God in time and reward in eternity. Not salvation.

Please tell me how "Once Saved Always Saved" is not a license to sin.

Because there is no such thing. Just being a human being means that we are sinners. Rom 3:9 and 23.

Can a person abide in unrepentant sins like lying, lusting, and hating and still be saved if they do those sins the rest of their life and die?

Yes, because at the moment of belief in Christ, the beilever becomes a child of God. There is no evidence that God will "undo" this new birth.

Or do all true believers become holy and righteous in time?

Of course not. That is the goal, and that is what believers are predestined to do. But Jesus Himself indicated that some will "believe for a while" and in time of temptation "fall away". That means falling away from their belief. Not from salvation.

So does a believer do both good and bad as a part of their every day life?

According to Romans 7, Paul's answer would be a resounding 'yes'. v.14-25.

Or are they changed and different (showing that they have put on the new man)?

The immediate change is the new birth, which creates the 'new creature' of 1 Cor 5:17. There is also the concept of progressive sanctification, which is the subject of spiritual growth, which may or may not occur.

Are believers supposed to be a holy and separate people that are different from the world or not?

Yes, we are. The Bible is very clear about that.

Bottom line; no human needs a 'license to sin'. We sin because of our corrupted natures. One's theology does not prevent one from sinning.

And those who use the argument that OSAS is a license to in simply do not understand God's grace. Or the consequences of sin. God has promised His hand of discipline, which cannot be dismissed as a simple 'hand slap' as some might want to claim. 1 Cor 11:30 is quite clear that God's discipline includes weakness, sickness and even physical death. And Heb 12:5 uses the word "scourge" in relation to God's discipline. The Greek word actually means to skin alive with a whip.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Paul says in Romans 8 that believers are predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ. If a believer can somehow fall away, this will make God either a liar, or incompetent.

And the context.

"But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." (Romans 8:9).

"Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live." (Romans 8:12-13).


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[John Robie]

And the context.

"But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." (Romans 8:9).

"Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live." (Romans 8:12-13).


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I'm aware of the context. Does God have some that He has predestined to be confirmed to the image of Christ?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Because there is no such thing as a 'license to sin'. Sinning comes naturally, through our sin natures. Even those who reject grace and believe one does not have eternal security fall into sin. Their own views don't even prevent themselves from turning away from Christianity.

So a believer can die in unrepentant sin like lying, murder, hate, adultery and still be saved?

That's good, because the Bible teaches it.

You know what I meant. I was implying that I was arguing against OSAS and not for it.

Sounds as though you've 'repented' of your belief in OSAS. The key to the warning passages is to understand what exactly is being warning about or what is being threatened to be lost. The answer is blessings from God in time and reward in eternity. Not salvation.

I disagree strongly. Christ (God) cannot abide within a person who sins and or rebels against Him (because He is holy); And salvation (or life) is a person named Jesus Christ. For he that has the Son has life and he that does not have the Son does not have life (1 John 5:12).

Because there is no such thing. Just being a human being means that we are sinners. Rom 3:9 and 23.

No. If your interpretation on these verses is in conclusion that ALL people (even the saints) are going to sin, then you also have to conclude that there is nobody that has any understanding or that nobody seeks after God, too.

"There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God." (Romans 3:11).

Yes, because at the moment of belief in Christ, the beilever becomes a child of God. There is no evidence that God will "undo" this new birth.

Not true.

"Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;" (Hebrews 3:12-14).

"Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off." (Romans 11:20-22).

"For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins." (Hebrews 10:26).

Of course not. That is the goal, and that is what believers are predestined to do. But Jesus Himself indicated that some will "believe for a while" and in time of temptation "fall away". That means falling away from their belief. Not from salvation.

One aspect of faith is belief.

"For faith is the substance of things hoped for." (Hebrews 11:1).

And in one's faith, if they draw back, God will take no pleasure in them. They must believe to the saving of their soul.

"Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul." (Hebrews 10:38-39).

According to Romans 7, Paul's answer would be a resounding 'yes'. v.14-25.

No. In the bulk of Romans 7, Paul is speaking from his perspective a Jew who obeyed the Law of Moses before he was a Christian. This is evident if you were to compare Romans 7:14 where he says he is "sold under sin" and in Romans 8:2 where he says he is "free from sin." Romans 7 ends with the solution (That solution is Jesus Christ).

The immediate change is the new birth, which creates the 'new creature' of 1 Cor 5:17. There is also the concept of progressive sanctification, which is the subject of spiritual growth, which may or may not occur.

What happened to the seed that fell to that was choked by the thorns and or fell on rocky ground? What kind of people is this comparing it to? Are the Holy Scriptures primarily a spiritual guidance of telling us about unbelievers or believers?

Yes, we are. The Bible is very clear about that.

Bottom line; no human needs a 'license to sin'. We sin because of our corrupted natures. One's theology does not prevent one from sinning.

And those who use the argument that OSAS is a license to in simply do not understand God's grace. Or the consequences of sin. God has promised His hand of discipline, which cannot be dismissed as a simple 'hand slap' as some might want to claim. 1 Cor 11:30 is quite clear that God's discipline includes weakness, sickness and even physical death. And Heb 12:5 uses the word "scourge" in relation to God's discipline. The Greek word actually means to skin alive with a whip.

But is correction really an effective method for those who just want to serve two masters?


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[Bible Highlighter]

I'm aware of the context. Does God have some that He has predestined to be confirmed to the image of Christ?

Paul is talking to the brethren. He is saying if they live after the flesh, they will die. This statement is addressed to believers. If they were to automatically all conform to the image of Christ, then Paul would never have to give a warning to them about living after the flesh whereby they would die.


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[John Robie]

Paul is talking to the brethren. He is saying if they live after the flesh, they will die. This statement is addressed to believers. If they were to automatically all conform to the image of Christ, then Paul would never have to give a warning to them about living after the flesh whereby they would die.


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You are not answering my question. Has God predestined some to be confirmed to the image of His Son?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You are not answering my question. Has God predestined some to be confirmed to the image of His Son?

Why are you not looking at the context that I have brought up? Does it maybe have to do with the fact that it refutes your question?

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