How is Once Saved Always Saved not a license to sin? (moved)

[Bible Highlighter]

OK, I'd say that there are 1) the Elect and then there are those that are 2) not among the Elect. Many people may seem to be among the Elect but they later show by their beliefs and behavior that they were not.

God has to honor His agreement of placing faith initially in Him, though. In other words, all who repent of their sins and accept Christ by hearing the Word are saved. But not all who repent and accept Christ will continue to abide in Him. To put it to you another way, God did not create the Elect to have specific qualities that were different than other people. The Elect are merely people who choose of their own free will to endure to the End by abiding in Christ and His good ways.

Why does the Non-Elect believers endure only for a time and or fall away from the faith?

Because they had no root in God's Word.


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[Bible Highlighter]

OK, I'd say that there are 1) the Elect and then there are those that are 2) not among the Elect. Many people may seem to be among the Elect but they later show by their beliefs and behavior that they were not.

Here is a list of verses that makes it absolutely clear that believers can fall away from the faith and go from a saved state to an unsaved state.

1 Samuel 16:14
1 Samuel 31:4
Ezekiel 18:24
Hebrews 3:12-14
Hebrews 4:11
Hebrews 6:4-9
Hebrews 10:26-30
Hebrews 12:15
1 Timothy 1:18-20
1 Timothy 4:1-7
Galatians 3:1-5
2 Peter 2:20-22
2 Peter 3:17
Matthew 13:18-23
1 Corinthians 10:12
2 Thessalonians 2:3

Now, do not misunderstand me, believers cannot lose their salvation, but they can forfeit their salvation (i.e. they can willingly throw it away by rebelling against God). In fact,

Here is a list of believers who have forfeited their salvation:

• Saul (1 Samuel 16:14) (1 Samuel 31:4)

• Demas (2 Timothy 4:10)

• The Prodigal Son (Luke 15:11-32)

• Judas Iscariot (Psalm 41:9) (Luke 6:16) (Acts 1:25)

• Hymenaeus and Philetus (2 Timothy 2:17, 18)

• Unnamed Christians destroyed by false teaching (2 Timothy 2:17, 18)

• Many Unnamed Disciples (John 6:66)

• Some Younger Christian Widows (1 Timothy 5:14, 15)

• Some Christians Eager For Money (1 Timothy 6:8, 9, 10)

• Ananias and Sapphira (Acts 5:1-11)

• Balaam (Numbers chapters 22, 23, 24) (Numbers 31:8) (Joshua 13:22) (Jude 1:11)

And here is a list of potential fallen believers:

• The Servant Who is Not Looking For Him (Luke 12:45, 46)

• Recent Convert Who is a Potential Spiritual Leader (1 Timothy 3:6)

• The Unforgiving in Heart (Matthew 6:14, 15)

• Luke Warm Unrepentant Believer (Revelation 3:14-22)

• Fruitless Christians (John 15:1-10) (Matthew 25:14-30)

• Widows That Live in Pleasure (1 Timothy 5:5, 6)

• Believers Whose Seed Fell Upon the Rocks (Luke 8:13)

• Believers Whose Seed Was Choked by Thorns (Matthew 13:22)

• Gentile Believer Who Did Not Have on a Wedding Garment (Matthew 22:1-14) (Revelation 19:7, 8)

• The Potential Fellow Believer Who Erred From the Truth & Was Converted Back
  (James 5:19, 20)

For Jesus is the Light and we are to shine the Light of Christ within our lives. For there are those who think they can serve Jesus and also live for oneself, sin, and evil; But this is wrong, though. "For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God" (John 3:20-21).


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[Crowns&Laurels]

Osas is not a 'license' to sin. It is simply that no sin necessarily separates one from God, which is very different then what Catholic 'infusion' teaches.
The doctrine of osas is primarily concerned with faith alone.

 

[Albion]

Here is a list of verses that makes it absolutely clear that believers can fall away from the faith and go from a saved state to an unsaved state.

Now list the many verses that say the opposite.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Now list the many verses that say the opposite.

There are none. Salvation is conditional and it is not forced upon a person after they accept Christ. Salvation is always one's choice every day.


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[Albion]

There are none.

Oh yes. I forgot that that's your standard response to the mention of any verses that don't fit your presuppostions--even ones that are quoted to you. I should have remembered this from before.





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[Bible Highlighter]

Osas is not a 'license' to sin. It is simply that no sin necessarily separates one from God, which is very different then what Catholic 'infusion' teaches.
The doctrine of osas is primarily concerned with faith alone.

You cannot have one without the other. If sin does not separate a person from God then one will be led to think that they have a license to sin in time. For we know that if there are no consequences to sin in the after-life then people will just live however they please. In other words, it is like creating a healthy miracle cure all substance for weight loss. If you provide this healthy cure that could prevent people from getting fat, then people (Who take this cure) are going to eat more unhealthy foods because there are no consequences anymore (in getting fat). But just in case you do not believe me. The Bible does essentially say:

Sin is separation from God:

Isaiah 59:2
But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

Micah 3:4
Then shall they cry unto the LORD, but he will not hear them: he will even hide his face from them at that time, as they have behaved themselves in an evil way in their deeds.

Ezekiel 39:23-24
And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword. According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them

Isaiah 1:15
And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.

Deuteronomy 31:17-18
Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God is not among us? And I will surely hide my face in that day for all the evils which they shall have wrought, in that they are turned unto other gods.

Proverbs 1:28 CJB and Proverbs 1:29
Then they will call me, but I won’t answer; they will seek me earnestly, but they won’t find me. For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the Lord

Isaiah 57:17 ESV
Because of the iniquity of his unjust gain I was angry, I struck him; I hid my face and was angry, but he went on backsliding in the way of his own heart.

Proverbs 15:29
The LORD is far from the wicked: but he heareth the prayer of the righteous.

Deuteronomy 32:19-20 KJ2
And when the LORD saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters. And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very perverse generation, children in whom is no faith.

John 9:31 ESV
We know that God does not listen to sinners, but if anyone is a worshiper of God and does his will, God listens to him.

Proverbs 28:9
He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination.

Job 27:8-9 GNV
For what hope hath the hypocrite when he hath heaped up riches, if God take away his soul? Will God hear his cry, when trouble cometh upon him?

Zechariah 7:13 KJ2
Therefore it has come to pass that as He cried and they would not hear, so they cried and I would not hear,” saith the Lord of hosts.

Ezekiel 8:17-18 NLT
Have you seen this, son of man?” he asked. “Is it nothing to the people of Judah that they commit these detestable sins, leading the whole nation into violence, thumbing their noses at me, and provoking my anger? Therefore, I will respond in fury. I will neither pity nor spare them. And though they cry for mercy, I will not listen.

Jeremiah 14:10-12
Thus saith the Lord unto this people, Thus have they loved to wander, they have not refrained their feet, therefore the Lord doth not accept them; he will now remember their iniquity, and visit their sins. Then said the Lord unto me, Pray not for this people for their good. When they fast, I will not hear their cry; and when they offer burnt offering and an oblation, I will not accept them: but I will consume them by the sword, and by the famine, and by the pestilence.

Isaiah 58:9 HCSB
At that time, when you call, the Lord will answer; when you cry out, He will say, ‘Here I am.’ If you get rid of the yoke among you, the finger-pointing and malicious speaking,

Proverbs 21:13
Whoso stoppeth his ears at the cry of the poor, he also shall cry himself, but shall not be heard.

Psalm 66:18
If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me

Psalm 34:15-16
The eyes of the Lord are upon the righteous, and his ears are open unto their cry. The face of the Lord is against them that do evil, to cut off the remembrance of them from the earth.


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[Bible Highlighter]

Oh yes. I forgot that that's your standard response to the mention of any verses that don't fit your presuppostions--even ones that are quoted to you. I should have remembered this from before.

Show me the verses and I will be more than happy to discuss them.


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[Crowns&Laurels]

If sin does not separate a person from God then one will be led to think that they have a license to sin in time.

Yeah, people who don't understand osas.
If one has faith, they will not believe they have a license to sin. They will understand that sin has consequence, but also believe that a grave act doesn't just do away with something so holy as the imputed righteousness by Christ.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I think the problem arises for some in understanding salvation in the Bible because they think salvation is like a super power or something.

However, salvation is not a super power, but salvation is a person named Jesus Christ; And there are several passages that tell us that one cannot be out of fellowship with Christ (God) and still be saved. How so?

#1. 1 John 5:12 says He that has the Son has life and He that does not have the Son does not have life. Life is associated with eternal life or salvation.

#2. John 17:3 says eternal life is in knowing the one true God, Jesus Christ. Knowing implies a fellowship. So if one does not know Jesus, then they don't have life (Salvation).

#3. Romans 8:9 says if he a man does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to him.

#4. Psalm 73:27 says God will destroy all those who abandon Him (or go a whoring from Him).

#5. John 15:6 says if a man does not abide in Him, he is cast forth and burned.

#6. 1 John 1:7 says if we walk in the Light as He is in the Light, the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin.

#7. Romans 11:21-22 says if the Gentile believer does not continue in his goodness they will be cut off. For if God spared not the natural branches (i.e. the Jews), take heed that he can do the same to you (i.e. Gentile believers). The analogy here is that the Gentile believer is branch and Christ is the tree. Believers need to continue in Christ's righteousness or goodness, not our own righteousness or goodness, or we will be cut off because of unbelief.

#8. 2 Corinthians 13:5 says, Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?


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[Bible Highlighter]

Yeah, people who don't understand osas.
If one has faith, they will not believe they have a license to sin. They will understand that sin has consequence, but also believe that a grave act doesn't just do away with something so holy as the imputed righteousness by Christ.

Again, I need verses for this line of thinking.

Thank you.


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[Bible Highlighter]

I think the problem arises for some in understanding salvation in the Bible because they think salvation is like a super power or something.

However, salvation is not a super power, but salvation is a person named Jesus Christ; And there are several passages that tell us that one cannot be out of fellowship with Christ (God) and still be saved. How so?

#1. 1 John 5:12 says He that has the Son has life and He that does not have the Son does not have life. Life is associated with eternal life or salvation.

#2. John 17:3 says eternal life is in knowing the one true God, Jesus Christ. Knowing implies a fellowship. So if one does not know Jesus, then they don't have life (Salvation).

#3. Romans 8:9 says if he a man does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to him.

#4. Psalm 73:27 says God will destroy all those who abandon Him (or go a whoring from Him).

#5. John 15:6 says if a man does not abide in Him, he is cast forth and burned.

#6. 1 John 1:7 says if we walk in the Light as He is in the Light, the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin.

#7. Romans 11:21-22 says if the Gentile believer does not continue in his goodness they will be cut off. For if God spared not the natural branches (i.e. the Jews), take heed that he can do the same to you (i.e. Gentile believers). The analogy here is that the Gentile believer is branch and Christ is the tree. Believers need to continue in Christ's righteousness or goodness, not our own righteousness or goodness, or we will be cut off because of unbelief.

#8. 2 Corinthians 13:5 says, Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?


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And how do we know for sure if we know Him (Whereby we would be saved)?

The Scriptures say it is by keeping His Commandments.

"And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." (1 John 2:3-4).

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[Job8]

How is "Once Saved Always Saved" not a license to sin?...Please tell me how "Once Saved Always Saved" is not a license to sin.

Here's how (Titus 2:11-14):
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

SALVATION = ETERNAL SALVATION (the gift of eternal life)

DENYING UNGODLINESS = SANCTIFICATION (an ongoing process)

So where in the world did anyone get the idea that eternal security = license of sin?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Here's how (Titus 2:11-14):
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

SALVATION = ETERNAL SALVATION (the gift of eternal life)

DENYING UNGODLINESS = SANCTIFICATION (an ongoing process)

So where in the world did anyone get the idea that eternal security = license of sin?

Please take note that the following words that I have written are not meant to be directed towards you specifically. I am merely stating what I believe. So please do not be offended by anything I have written below. It is not specifically directed at you but it is merely a generalized statement to all in what I believe is true according to the Scriptures. I say this because I was banned for a day and a half for merely asking someone if they believed in Antinomianism. So I am not asking what you believe. I am also not going to assume anything, either. I merely stating my beliefs.

Okay. Now, let's get down to business.

I have talked with people both online and in person who believe they can abide in unrepentant sin and still be saved. This is Classic OSAS or Antinomianism.

Then there is OSAS Lite (or Level One Type OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved). OSAS Lite teaches that if a believer were to practice or continually abide in unrepentant sin then they were never saved to begin with. Meaning that a true believer is characterized by them living righteously. So falling away from the faith would be impossible (Despite the many verses that talk about such a thing).

This belief is dangerous for two reasons.

#1. OSAS Lite causes one to doubt the promises of God in regards to salvation.

#2. OSAS Lite denies one can cease from sin as 1 Peter 4:1 and Galatians 5:24 teach (like all versions of OSAS teach).​

#1. OSAS Lite causes one to doubt the promises of God in regards to salvation. How? The devil is very clever. See, when some believers slides back into a lifestyle of sin, then they will then begin to question if their original acceptance and walk with God was ever real to begin with. So when they come back to the faith, they will never have any true assurance that they are ever saved by God's Word (being ever fearful that they may not be born again if they backslide into a life of sin again). Granted, a person backslides into sin does not have salvation anymore. But they can repent of such a sin and come back and have full assurance of God's Promises again and live for Him in confidence. James 5:19-20 and the Parable of the Prodigal Son both show how a believer can go from a saved state to an unsaved state (Because of sin) and then come back to being saved again (Thru reprentance of sin). For David was reconciled by God thru his confession in Psalm 51. For he that confesses and forsakes sin shall have mercy (Proverbs 28:13). For if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins (1 John 1:9). For 1 John 1:9 is a promise that a believer can bank on and trust. If they confess sin, then He is faithful and just to forgive sin. But we must understand that is also in context to 1 John 1:7 to those who walk in the light, too (i.e. to forsake sin). For if we walk in the light as he is in the light then the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin. This lines up perfectly with 1 John 2:3-4. In 1 John 2:3 it essentially says we can have an assurance of knowing Him if we find that we are keeping His Commandments. But 1 John 2:4 says that he that says he knows him and does not keep his commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him.

#2. Sinless Perfectionism (or ceasing from sin) is denied by all OSAS proponents (From my experience with talking with many OSAS Proponents over the years). If this is true and if one says we will always sin, then they are essentially making excuses for having sin in their life. If this is the case for a person, then they are afraid of the idea of walking in holiness and being a slave to righteousness in this life instead of being a slave to sin.

This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind, Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness. But ye have not so learned Christ; If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another. Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath: Neither give place to the devil." (Ephesians 4:17-27).

For if one believes we will always continue in sin, then how can one put off the former conversation of the old man and putting away all lying according to the passage above? How are we to not give place to the devil if we continue to alway sin in this life? How has one not given themselves over to lasciviousness if they believe they will always sin? Are we to not walk anylonger as the unbelieving Gentiles walk?

 

[Albion]

I have talked with people both online and in person who believe they can abide in unrepentant sin and still be saved. This is Classic OSAS or Antinomianism.

No, it's classic dumbellism on the part of people who do not understand theology. There's nothing about "OSAS" itself, when properly understood, that supports this kind of ignorant mischaracterization.

It should also be more than evident that no concept or theory can be dismissed simply because of what some people who don't understand it say about it.

 

[Albion]

Again, I need verses for this line of thinking.

Thank you.


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If you haven't studied the matter sufficiently that you already know the pros and the cons of the matter--both the pros and the cons, both sides of this controversy--you aren't ready to discuss "OSAS."

 

[Bible Highlighter]

No, it's classic dumbellism on the part of people who do not understand theology. There's nothing about "OSAS" itself, when properly understood, that supports this kind of ignorant mischaracterization.

It should also be more than evident that no concept or theory can be dismissed simply because of what some people who don't understand it say about it.

Verses please.

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[Bible Highlighter]

If you haven't studied the matter sufficiently that you already know the pros and the cons of the matter--both the pros and the cons, both sides of this controversy--you aren't ready to discuss "OSAS."

This is not my first rodeo. I have discussed OSAS for about 4 years now. I have heard all the verses used to defend the different variations of it and I have heard all the excuses and tactics, too. So please tell me what you think OSAS is? Please show me which verses you think supports it? Then we can go from there and discuss it like gentlemen.


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[Albion]

This is not my first rodeo. I have discussed OSAS for about 4 years now.

Probably so, but that only reinforces what I said in my previous post about not taking it upon oneself to lecture on this or any other theological issue UNTIL and UNLESS you know enough about it to recognize the basis for the other side's beliefs. Even if you haven't done this already, you can easily go to the Reformed forum or Google and get all the verses you are looking for rather than wasting time.

 

[Job8]

I have talked with people both online and in person who believe they can abide in unrepentant sin and still be saved. This is Classic OSAS or Antinomianism.

You can safely disregard this kind of nonsense. They either (1) have no clue, or (2) are not really saved, or (3) are self-deceived. No one with the least acquaintance with the Gospel will talk such nonsense.

Then there is OSAS Lite (or Level One Type OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved). OSAS Lite teaches that if a believer were to practice or continually abide in unrepentant sin then they were never saved to begin with.

In light of the Scripture I provided, wouldn't you say this is true? Only sinners who truly repent and believe are saved. All others are self-deceived, such as Simon the Sorcerer.