How is Once Saved Always Saved not a license to sin? (moved)

[Bible Highlighter]

I tell you what, you keep mocking scriptures and ....

I am sorry. That statement doesn't really mean anything. You have to prove your case by actually quoting the Scriptures and by providing real world examples (like Jesus did).


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[John Robie]

Well, I really do not think my post is that long (And trust me, I have written some really long posts before - And this is not one of them). You can answer it in bite sized pieces or in multiple posts. If you are on the side of truth, answering such points should be child's play and not a challenge so as to answer them. So I do not believe it has to do with the size of my post as to why you are not answering my points. I believe they are a challenge for you in relation to your belief.



Asking a question wth a question is an evasion tactic. It is obvious why Christ (God) wants a person to pray so as not to be led into temptation (Which by the way is a part of the Lord's prayer). We are to pray so as to not to be led into temptation, that way we are building our relationship with Christ (God) in trusting in Him to sanctify us and to make our lives more holy (Thereby conforming to His image). The righteousness or good that we do, is not of our own doing but it is of God. So we cannot claim the victory. Hence, why we are praying to God so as to not be led into tempation. We are asking for God's help to be holy and righteous. This is just one of the many ways God has provided us so as to walk as Christ had walked.


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You finally got it. The righteous we do is not our own. Thank you for finally admitting that. That tells me that you finally understand that you cannot be good enough. That's been my point all along.

It's awesome to have such a great savior that not only saves us from death, but saves us from life.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

4 When he has brought out all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice.
5 A stranger they will not follow, but they will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers." - John 10:4-5

His sheep do not follow a stranger. Your view contradicts that.

I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. - John 10:11

The shepherd dies for His sheep.

14 I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me,
15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep. - John 10:14-15

And here's where you start to divide the Trinity. If the relationship between the sheep and the shepherd is the same as between the Father and Son, then it cannot be divided.

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.
28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. - John 10:27-28

He gives His sheep eternal life. If salvation can be lost, then it's not eternal life He gives them.

29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
30 I and the Father are one." - John 10:29-30

And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. - John 6:39

Will Christ lose any that have been given Him? No. Trying to add a condition to it makes Christ a liar.

I already answered these points before. Going over them is not going to change anything. The sheep that cannot be snatched out of the Lord's hand are sheep that FOLLOW Him. These are not sheep being dragged about by their necks on leashes here. As for John 6. He says He SHOULD lose nothing. Christ does not say He WILL lose nothing. Also, read John 17 again. All 12 disciples were given to Jesus by the Father and none were lost except the son of perdition (Judas). You cannot lose something you never had. You cannot lose my book if I never let you borrowed it. You cannot lose your keys if you never took them with you. You can only lose something if it is in your possession.


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[nobdysfool]

I already answered these points before. Going over them is not going to change anything. The sheep that cannot be snatched out of the Lord's hand are sheep that FOLLOW Him. These are not sheep being dragged about by their necks on leashes here. As for John 6. He says He SHOULD lose nothing. Christ does not say He WILL lose nothing. Also, read John 17 again. All 12 disciples were given to Jesus by the Father and none were lost except the son of perdition (Judas). You cannot lose something you never had. You cannot lose my book if I never let you borrowed it. You cannot lose your keys if you never took them with you. You can only lose something if it is in your possession....

Well that shows that you don't understand English idioms . Should does not mean the exact same thing today as it did 500 years ago. Do a little research before you say foolish things like that.

 

[John Robie]

I already answered these points before. Going over them is not going to change anything. The sheep that cannot be snatched out of the Lord's hand are sheep that FOLLOW Him. These are not sheep being dragged about by their necks on leashes here. As for John 6. He says He SHOULD lose nothing. Christ does not say He WILL lose nothing. Also, read John 17 again. All 12 disciples were given to Jesus by the Father and none were lost except the son of perdition (Judas). You cannot lose something you never had. You cannot lose my book if I never let you borrowed it. You cannot lose your keys if you never took them with you. You can only lose something if it is in your possession.


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I just spent a post that explained why your view is wrong, and I used the scripture. It never says that He will not lose the ones that follow. He said He will not lose the ones given to Him. That makes them His sheep. And what does he say about His sheep? His sheep follow.

You are creating a contradiction to support your view. And the contradiction puts a rift in the Trinity.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

It does, actually, undermine the new birth. It nullifies the fact that we are His child, and a Father disciplines his children, He does not just cast them aside. It also nullifies that we are sheep who have a great Shepherd. You view only makes him sorta good. But a shepherd who loses sheep is not really that good. Your view also puts a rift in the Trinity. It's means that Jesus loses someone who the Father has given Him, and whom the Spirit has sealed. It also makes Jesus a liar because He said He'd lose none.

God would be evil if He forced people to obey Him and or to be saved. God would also be evil if He let His people get away with sin and evil whereby He would reward them with Heaven despite such evil. God is faithful. But He is only faithful to those who are faithful towards Him. For whatsoever is not of faith is sin. And if any man draws back He cannot please God.


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[Bible Highlighter]

I just spent a post that explained why your view is wrong, and I used the scripture. It never says that He will not lose the ones that follow. He said He will not lose the ones given to Him. That makes them His sheep. And what does he say about His sheep? His sheep follow.

You are creating a contradiction to support your view. And the contradiction puts a rift in the Trinity.

And you are ignoring the words in the context of the passages I quoted so as to make your view true. Oh, and those sheep that FOLLOW Him do so of their own free will.


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[John Robie]

Well that shows that you don't understand English idioms . Should does not mean the exact same thing today as it did 500 years ago. Do a little research before you say foolish things like that.

Exactly. Otherwise, there are problems created like this:

“For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

If we read this in today's language, we only MIGHT be made righteous. We also might not.

Not much of a promise.

 

[John Robie]

And..,

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So you admit that's what you did. So why did you ignore what I said? It's obviously not because it's untrue since I provided the text in context.

 

[John Robie]

Oh, and those sheep that FOLLOW Him do so of their own free will.


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I've never said otherwise.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Exactly. Otherwise, there are problems created like this:

“For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

If we read this in today's language, we only MIGHT be made righteous. We also might not.

Not much of a promise.

This is talking about Justification so that when we repent of our past sins and accept Christ, the LORD then imputes His righteousness to us (Canceling out our past record) and wiping the slate clean whereby He then lives within in us and works His good thru us (i.e. Sanctification). If Jesus saved rebellious sinners then He would just save everyone. Because technically speaking all people are without excuse that there is a God. They know deep down that He exists. So believing is not enough. For the devils also believe and tremble.


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[Bible Highlighter]

I've never said otherwise.

So a believer has to FOLLOW Jesus of their own free will otherwise they are not of the type of sheep that cannot be snatched out of his hand then.


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[Bible Highlighter]

So you admit that's what you did. So why did you ignore what I said? It's obviously not because it's untrue since I provided the text in context.

What in the world are you talking about? I showed you the actual words in the Bible that you just flat out ignored in favor of your interpretation.


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[John Robie]

So a believer has to FOLLOW Jesus of their own free will otherwise they are not of the type of sheep that cannot be snatched out of his hand then.


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I trust what He said. He said His sheep will follow Him. And we know which ones are His. They are the ones given to Him.

 

[John Robie]

What in the world are you talking about? I showed you the actual words in the Bible that you just flat out ignored in favor of your interpretation.


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You said "and", which means you agreed with what I said. That's all I was pointing out.

 

[nobdysfool]

Should does not mean there is a possibility that it won't happen. Too bad you don't understand English. "Should" is the past tense of "will". You obviously don't know the language as well as you think you do. Do some research before you make foolish statements that change the Lord's words and intent.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You finally got it. The righteous we do is not our own. Thank you for finally admitting that. That tells me that you finally understand that you cannot be good enough. That's been my point all along.

It's awesome to have such a great savior that not only saves us from death, but saves us from life.

It's not like I finally came to this realization just now. I have believed that Christ alone is the One who works any or all good in the believer for a long time now. But this in no way equates with God allowing me to continue to keep sinning with the thinking I am saved; And this is in no way ignores the many passages that talk about how God desires His people to stop sinning, too. God is not going to give you the thumbs up approval in doing any kind of evil under any circumcstance. Saying one is going to always sin is just making an excuse to sin (When God says for them to stop).

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[John Robie]

God would be evil if He forced people to obey Him and or to be saved. God would also be evil if He let His people get away with sin and evil whereby He would reward them with Heaven despite such evil. God is faithful. But He is only faithful to those who are faithful towards Him. For whatsoever is not of faith is sin. And if any man draws back He cannot please God.


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Would God be evil if He gave us a new heart that wanted to follow Him willfully?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Should does not mean there is a possibility that it won't happen. Too bad you don't understand English. "Should" is the past tense of "will". You obviously don't know the language as well as you think you do. Do some research before you make foolish statements that change the Lord's words and intent.

So if your friend Rick said that he should come over your house, are you trying to tell me that he is saying he is comng over your house with a 100% absolute certainty? Bob says, I should stop eating candy but I just like it too much. Stephanie says I should stop smoking but I am addicted.

Hmmm.... doesnt' sound like the word "should" is an absolute certainty to me.

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[John Robie]

It's not like I finally came to this realization just now. I have believed that Christ alone is the One who works any or all good in the believer for a long time now. But this in no way equates with God allowing me to continue to keep sinning with the thinking I am saved; And this is in no way ignores the many passages that talk about how God desires His people to stop sinning, too. God is not going to give you the thumbs up approval in doing any kind of evil under any circumcstance. Saying one is going to always sin is just making an excuse to sin (When God says for them to stop).

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Is asking God to keep you from sinning a good thing? If so, even that comes from Him. Following comes from Him. Hearing comes from Him. So you should stop taking credit for not sinning.