How is Jesus descended from David?

[razeontherock]

If you have to be Christian to understand the bible, how exactly do you explain converts?

That's not what I said, but our Faith does not rest on a book. It rests on Christ, and His Resurrection.

How do you explain Christians who stop believing?

They didn't listen to enough Journey? (Don't Stop Believing) No seriously,
a lot of problems, including professing believers not obeying Christ, is due to not having any basis outside a book. Meaning their logic is circular. That is not what happens when one enters into Life!

Why are there different denominations?

Most of that really isn't due to different insights. It has more to do with practices people are comfortable with, or not, and who's in charge.

Is the Holy Spirit moving everyone in different directions?

Of course! We all have a unique starting point, and a common goal; the heart of Christ. This is one of the greater depictions of the Cross. Such a goal would never be accomplished if everyone were being "moved in the same direction." It also addresses your previous question, rather well.

Why do Christians have different interpretations of the bible?

Mostly because:

What if a Christian just couldn’t understand something?

None of us understand everything. Fortunately, our understanding does not Save us.

Does the Holy Spirit give you a more thorough understanding of the Bible, or does it just make you quash any doubts?

You're talking about a Person, in a very real sense of the word. Everything that gives someone a personality, He has; and He is a gentleman. Which means He doesn't go around "making" us do anything. And while the Lord does so Love giving us greater insight, He is also limited in that aspect by several things including our ability, the time we give Him, our willingness to open our mind, our focus upon hearing Him, etc.

In short, what you're trying to ask about, is easily as complex as any other relationship a person could have. And most likely much more nuanced, due to the Nature of the One we're attempting to discuss here.

Why would a God want us to believe anything we’re told?

He doesn't! This is a primary purpose for the first story in the Bible. If A & E hadn't been so gullible, being willing to believe any old thing anybody told them, they would've fared MUCH better! The lesson is figurative, and applies to us 100%.

Jesus tells us that "His sheep" know His voice, and will not follow another. What exactly does He mean by that? I encountered one person on CF who thinks that means if you don't hear an audible voice of G-d, you're not His sheep. I certainly hope that's not what He meant, because I've never experienced such a thing; but I do think there's plenty of room for that phrase to be meaningful for the rest of us, AND for that person to have actually heard an audible voice. (This should address a few of your previous questions)

Where is Mary’s genealogy? As in, what source are you using? I thought you believed both of the genealogies were about Joseph.

There's no reason to think otherwise. Both genealogies specifically state they refer to Joseph, and there's not even the slightest speck of disagreement between them. (Which certainly takes a bit of digging beneath the surface to discover) As for Mary's genealogy, I'm not using any source at all. Others have done the footwork, and all those dry, dusty details are available.

I wouldn’t call this a triviality. If Jesus isn’t descended from David he cannot be the messiah. There goes a major tenant of Christianity.

The letter of the law kills. It is the Spirit that gives Life! All this is handled, in countless ways. Why did Jesus specifically break sabbath laws, the way they were kept? Why did He refer to David doing the same thing, while keeping the law perfectly? You're missing the larger point here, and it's exactly the type of thing Jesus referred to when He mentioned "straining at a gnat, and swallowing a camel." Again, consider:

"And he said unto them, How say they that Christ is David's son? (Luke 20:42) And David himself saith in the book of Psalms, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Till I make thine enemies thy footstool. David therefore calleth him Lord, how is he then his son?

It doesn’t fare well for Christianity when a very simple, but fundamental question cannot be answered without me being Christian.

Look at my tagline, quoting Freodin. You're making the same mistake! Notice that "faring well for Christianity" is 100% accomplished by Christ alone. G-d doesn't need any one of us! His purposes will be accomplished with us or w/o us. The only question is, will we be included?

Is Jesus above fulfilling prophecies?

Do you sincerely not recognize the silliness of this question? He left heaven, humbled Himself to be made in the form of a man, merely to fulfill prophecy.

Did Jesus fulfill all prophecies?

NO! If He did, all Jews would believe Jesus is the Christ.

Are there any other instances in the bible when an adopted child taking on the tribe of the father. Not culturally, like any other biological kid would.

Not only are there instances, but there is the whole doctrine of "the kinsman redeemer." This is also part of Jesus' genealogy, as is Rahab the harlot, and other characters you would think would make it utterly impossible for Jesus to arrive and conquer death.

The details you're skipping over are that Jesus was a Jew, and Abraham was the friend of G-d.

You're also ignoring the total uniqueness of this situation, failing to recognize that no other "adoption" could be anything like Jesus' situation.

In short, you're simultaneously attempting to look into the work of G-d, and deny His Power. This will not yield a satisfying answer!

Did Jesus inherit the bloodline of David through his Mother or Father?

Truthfully, I think this is a trick question! And not one posed by you, either. Why is it that in a patriarchal society, Jewishness is passed through the Mother? I think G-d set things up this way, for precisely the reason you're inquiring about. Clearly Jesus only inherited anything "by blood," via Mary. Surely you didn't forget about the Virgin birth?

So you need to ask yourself, why Joseph's genealogy even matters at all ...

Is Mary eligible to pass on the line? I personally do not think so. She would pass on Judaism.

You have never pondered the women that are mentioned in Christ's genealogy, have you? Each has incredible significance! You would do well to seek out why they are mentioned.

Is Joseph's line cursed because of Jechoniah?

I am only vaguely familiar with this concept, but it brings with it interesting questions. If this "line" was cursed, what would that curse be? And how did ol' camel knees, half brother of the Lord die?

 

[razeontherock]

How about Isa 7:14 is just about some random lady going to have a son.

How 'bout Jews teach that each passage has 70 layers of meaning? You're looking at one, and thinking that's it?!?

Or Jesus obviously isn’t named Immanuel?

He certainly IS known as the One who makes it possible for G-d to be with us, and that's what Emmanuel means. It's what His human life is all about ...

Or maybe the servant in Isaiah is clearly identified as Israel?

Yes, of course. That's one layer of meaning. Another is that Israel is a type of Christ.

 

[razeontherock]

Jesus' culture never talked about a divine messiah. That was interpreted in after the fact.

You're skipping "a little something:"

"to fulfil the word of God; (Colossians 1:26) [Even] the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what [is] the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you"

This much is absolutely ancient. Even Job had a taste of it. And it's all throughout the law of Moses!

And:

"That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ; (Colossians 2:3) In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge."

Again, this is spoken of right from the beginning, in Job.


And again:

"see what [is] the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: (Ephesians 3:10) To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly [places] might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:"

So by referring to Judaism, you're mistakenly thinking they had the full picture, when much of it was deliberately hidden.

And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.

Isaiah 49:4

Yet now hear, O Jacob my servant; and Israel, whom I have chosen:

Isaiah 44:1

These, O Jacob and Israel; for thou art my servant: I have formed thee; thou art my servant: O Israel, thou shalt not be forgotten of me.

Isaiah 44:21

Wonderful passages, all of which speak of Christ. (Of course on one level they certainly do speak of Israel, plainly; yet it is every bit as plain that they also refer to Christ.)

 

[razeontherock]

Now back to the Q&A.

Are we making an exemption for Jesus or was it always the practice in ancient times to adopt the lineage of the father if you were adopted?

While I think the word you're looking for is exception and not exemption, Jesus is certainly exceptional! (Far moreso than any American)

There is not a single incident that could be compared to this one, that you're trying to compare.

 

[Hammster]

MOD HAT ON



There has been a thread clean up. As a reminder, do not flame. And if you are flamed, don't respond. Less work for us. And you don't lose any of your posts. Thanks.

MOD HAT OFF

 

[EmmaXO]

That's not what I said, but our Faith does not rest on a book. It rests on Christ, and His Resurrection.

The only thing to support this is written in a book. I think things like miracles or feelings of love, being moved by the Holy Spirit are results of seeing, hearing, and thinking what you want. How can we verify a miracle is a miracle and someone isn't lying or making it up? Is it alright to lie "in the name of Jesus"? I'm not implying those who believe they have experienced a miracle are liars.

They didn't listen to enough Journey? (Don't Stop Believing) No seriously,
a lot of problems, including professing believers not obeying Christ, is due to not having any basis outside a book. Meaning their logic is circular. That is not what happens when one enters into Life!

The idea “you can’t be a real Christian and leave Christianity” is one I despise. Real, authentic, Christians can leave Christianity. There is a series about a president of a youth group who leaves Christianity. I would post the link, but I feel I am already walking on thin ice over piranha infested water. If you are interested I could send it to you over PM.

Of course! We all have a unique starting point, and a common goal; the heart of Christ. This is one of the greater depictions of the Cross. Such a goal would never be accomplished if everyone were being "moved in the same direction." It also addresses your previous question, rather well.

The Holy Spirit moves everyone to believe in different things, so that means in rearguard to the bible and Jesus, there are varying or different levels of truth? What about some vastly different denominations? Did the Holy Spirit move the Swedenborgian founder? Did he move Joseph Smith? Does the Holy Spirit lead people to reject mainstream Christianity’s understanding of the Trinity?

If the Holy Spirit moves everyone in different directions could we define Christian as, “Someone who believes and follows the teachings of Christ in the way they believe to be be correct? Just out of curiosity, what denomination are you? Would Mormons or Jehovah’s witnesses be Christians as they believe they follow Jesus to the best of their abilities.

He doesn't! This is a primary purpose for the first story in the Bible. If A & E hadn't been so gullible, being willing to believe any old thing anybody told them, they would've fared MUCH better! The lesson is figurative, and applies to us 100%.

Jesus tells us that "His sheep" know His voice, and will not follow another. What exactly does He mean by that? I encountered one person on CF who thinks that means if you don't hear an audible voice of G-d, you're not His sheep. I certainly hope that's not what He meant, because I've never experienced such a thing; but I do think there's plenty of room for that phrase to be meaningful for the rest of us, AND for that person to have actually heard an audible voice. (This should address a few of your previous questions)

I meant some people seem to believe everything in the bible, because it’s in the bible. Cultural and historical contexts are not taken into account. No allegorical of non-literal meanings are looked for. You're not guilty of this.

You mean, in a non-literal way the voice of Jesus moves you? When people claim they see Jesus or hear him is this really Jesus?

There's no reason to think otherwise. Both genealogies specifically state they refer to Joseph, and there's not even the slightest speck of disagreement between them. (Which certainly takes a bit of digging beneath the surface to discover) As for Mary's genealogy, I'm not using any source at all. Others have done the footwork, and all those dry, dusty details are available.

Thank you. I had only ever heard this was about Mary. Why didn’t one of the evengelists just state this outright? It certainly would end some confusion.

The letter of the law kills. It is the Spirit that gives Life! All this is handled, in countless ways. Why did Jesus specifically break sabbath laws, the way they were kept? Why did He refer to David doing the same thing, while keeping the law perfectly? You're missing the larger point here, and it's exactly the type of thing Jesus referred to when He mentioned "straining at a gnat, and swallowing a camel." Again, consider:

This is where I run into fault with Christianity. Look at psalm 19:7. I always thought there was such a large disconnect between the old and new testaments.

To assume that Jesus is messiah and can thus break the law, he is elevated to a higher state where he is in the position to break the law. You elevate him to a higher state because he is Jesus. You’re stating he is the messiah, and can thus break the law while assuming he is the messiah.

Truthfully, I think this is a trick question! And not one posed by you, either. Why is it that in a patriarchal society, Jewishness is passed through the Mother? I think G-d set things up this way, for precisely the reason you're inquiring about. Clearly Jesus only inherited anything "by blood," via Mary. Surely you didn't forget about the Virgin birth?

So you need to ask yourself, why Joseph's genealogy even matters at all ...

Others on this thread have stated Jesus would “inherit” Joseph’s bloodline or was adopted in. I do not believe this. My question was poorly worded. Replace mother and father with “Mary” and “Joseph”.

You wouldn't be able to verify who the father is but you would always be able to find out who the mother is. I know you think Jesus has voided this.

You have never pondered the women that are mentioned in Christ's genealogy, have you? Each has incredible significance! You would do well to seek out why they are mentioned.

It’s an anomaly that women are mentioned in the first place. I know there are several theories about this. I’m beginning to develop a complex I give off an air of stupid.

I am only vaguely familiar with this concept, but it brings with it interesting questions. If this "line" was cursed, what would that curse be? And how did ol' camel knees, half brother of the Lord die?

This is just going to go around in circles again-and-again, so I’m reluctant to start this. Jesus is either descended from Mary or legally descended from Joseph. If we consider him as legally descended from Joseph he is exempt from the curse because he is not a biological child. I’m confused about this though. Jesus has to be a descendant of David to be the messiah (2 Samuel 7:12, Zera’ is used, literally meaning “sperm virile"). Some of you promote the idea Jesus has all the rights of a biological child and inherits the line and everything that comes with it. His adoptive ancestors are fully his ancestors. It’s like he is a descendant of David as any biological child is as he lacks a father.

Then it’s said Jesus is exempt from the curse as he is not biological. Yet through adoption he would be like any biological child with a right to the throne.

Why do you believe Mary is a descendant of David if Luke 3 is to about Joseph?

This “Holy Spirit” logic has a fundamental flaw. Right now I view Christianity as having fundamental theological flaws that stop me from believing. You may say I cannot understand these issues I have with Christianity as I am not Christian, and thus not touched by the Holy Spirit. However, the flaws I find with Christianity stop me from becoming Christian and from being touched by the Holy Spirit. How am I supposed to reconcile thisif I wish to become Christian?

I'm sorry I didn't look at your other posts after this one. I've been busy all day. I'm glad we got onto something interesting. I don't know much about the Holy Spirit.

 

[EmmaXO]

You're skipping "a little something:"

"to fulfil the word of God; (Colossians 1:26) [Even] the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what [is] the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you"

This much is absolutely ancient. Even Job had a taste of it. And it's all throughout the law of Moses!

And:

"That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ; (Colossians 2:3) In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge."

Again, this is spoken of right from the beginning, in Job.


And again:

"see what [is] the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: (Ephesians 3:10) To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly [places] might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:"

So by referring to Judaism, you're mistakenly thinking they had the full picture, when much of it was deliberately hidden.



Wonderful passages, all of which speak of Christ. (Of course on one level they certainly do speak of Israel, plainly; yet it is every bit as plain that they also refer to Christ.)

We need to take this talk of Isaiah to the Christianity and World Religions forum. I'm pretty sure debate is allowed there.

 

[razeontherock]

We need to take this talk of Isaiah to the Christianity and World Religions forum. I'm pretty sure debate is allowed there.

In fact there's a wonderful old thread there on the book, with participants from several different Faiths

 

[razeontherock]

The only thing to support this is written in a book. I think things like miracles or feelings of love, being moved by the Holy Spirit are results of seeing, hearing, and thinking what you want. How can we verify a miracle is a miracle and someone isn't lying or making it up?

what you are describing in your first sentence is circular logic. That is NOT Biblical Christianity. I could suppose that a lot of the ills in modern churchianity are due to people that have nothing else.

The idea “you can’t be a real Christian and leave Christianity” is one I despise. Real, authentic, Christians can leave Christianity. There is a series about a president of a youth group who leaves Christianity. I would post the link, but I feel I am already walking on thin ice over piranha infested water. If you are interested I could send it to you over PM.

No need, I'm on your side of the issue, and defend it rigorously in our C only sections. Scripture makes this clear. (Personally i don't see any need to fear posting the link, but as you wish)

The Holy Spirit moves everyone to believe in different things, so that means in rearguard to the bible and Jesus, there are varying or different levels of truth? What about some vastly different denominations? Did the Holy Spirit move the Swedenborgian founder? Did he move Joseph Smith? Does the Holy Spirit lead people to reject mainstream Christianity’s understanding of the Trinity?

G-d is not the author of confusion, but He does speak to us at the level of our need. For example, I have experience with the "Jesus Only" movement, and it's founding is based on Divine revelation. Of course it didn't take people long to pollute that with false ideas. I have no idea what Swedenborgian is, despite my Swedish last name. I believe LDS is a cult. Most denoms that are actually Christian, do in fact minister to their adherents. So often the differences that go beyond mere practice, are over things we don't really know anyway. I usually refer to such things as 'arguing about how many angels fit on the head of a pin.'

If the Holy Spirit moves everyone in different directions could we define Christian as, “Someone who believes and follows the teachings of Christ in the way they believe to be be correct?

There's almost some Truth to that Bottom line, is all Judgment has been given to the Son! And He makes it pretty clear He's interested in our Faithfulness to what we've received.

Just out of curiosity, what denomination are you?

I'm not. Not only do I not believe in it, I am against denominationalism as such. A quick review: I'm Methodist, because there is a method to coming to G-d. I'm Baptist, because being Baptized is important. I'm Lutheran, because I believe Luther did what was necessary at the time. I'm Pentecostal, because the Day of Pentecost is when the Church started. (I could continue with the list, but I can't bring myself to invent one for Catholicism; maybe some day)

Would Mormons or Jehovah’s witnesses be Christians as they believe they follow Jesus to the best of their abilities.

this is a tough one for me, and I'm glad I don't sit that high as to have an opinion that matters. i will state that the people within those groups I've encountered have been very sincere. I think they're sincerely deceived, by cults. I would hope some from within those groups will be Saved.

When people claim they see Jesus or hear him is this really Jesus?

I don't know. I've seen some very ... 'colorful' positions stated on this topic on CF, from a handful of (former) posters. Irl, I have no contact w/ anyone making any such claim, which I think says a lot; but I reserve judgment. (Sorry I can't be more helpful here)

This is where I run into fault with Christianity. Look at psalm 19:7.

I love that passage

To assume that Jesus is messiah and can thus break the law, he is elevated to a higher state where he is in the position to break the law. You elevate him to a higher state because he is Jesus. You’re stating he is the messiah, and can thus break the law while assuming he is the messiah.

If I (or Christianity) stated that, you should have a problem with it; however, that's not what's being stated. Jesus not only IS the law, He is the very Word of G-d, made flesh!

The relationship is different than what is commonly surmised, and that is demonstrated repeatedly. I don't think any mortal fully comprehends this, at all times. Sure is nice when we get a glimpse though! And the Gospels certainly afford us that. I have tried to bring out one way it does this. Perhaps you would be better served by a different vantage point?

Others on this thread have stated Jesus would “inherit” Joseph’s bloodline or was adopted in. I do not believe this. My question was poorly worded. Replace mother and father with “Mary” and “Joseph”.

You wouldn't be able to verify who the father is but you would always be able to find out who the mother is. I know you think Jesus has voided this.

I think you are mis-stating my position. We know who the physical Mother is. She alone contributed DNA, human nature, and any other aspect of humanity.

There is no earthly Father, and I have had insights into why this is crucial to the Gospel. I'm not sure what it might take to get you past your sticking point here, but there might be some overlap between the 2?

It’s an anomaly that women are mentioned in the first place. I know there are several theories about this. I’m beginning to develop a complex I give off an air of stupid.

Please don't let me have that effect on you! You are familiar with G-d's people being the sheep of His pasture? Sheep are many things, including loyal and lovable; but DUMB. Compared to Him, the very brightest of us are ... DUMB.

My point is that the mentions of women in the genealogies are, in fact, anomalies. I'm asking you to ponder, why are they included? You may be more well-versed in Israel's history, and so these mere mentions may mean more to you than they do to me. It is very rich stuff! It says a lot about G-d's reach into our very human condition, as Savior.

This is just going to go around in circles again-and-again, so I’m reluctant to start this. Jesus is either descended from Mary or legally descended from Joseph.

He is both! Don't be guilty of making a false dichotomy. He was raised in a 2 parent household.

If we consider him as legally descended from Joseph he is exempt from the curse because he is not a biological child. I’m confused about this though.

So am I. Jesus became a curse! Maybe it started with Joseph?

Jesus has to be a descendant of David to be the messiah (2 Samuel 7:12, Zera’ is used, literally meaning “sperm virile").

You're way over my head. Does Mary being overshadowed by the Holy Ghost fit the bill here, or no? Certainly her egg was fertilized. I take this as Jesus got His Spirit (Life) from G-d, unique among humanity except for Adam.

Some of you promote the idea Jesus has all the rights of a biological child and inherits the line and everything that comes with it. His adoptive ancestors are fully his ancestors. It’s like he is a descendant of David as any biological child is as he lacks a father.

It's not often someone on CF open up an angle I haven't studied, let alone pondered. I don't know! What about the "root of Jesse?" (Isaiah 11:10)

Why do you believe Mary is a descendant of David if Luke 3 is to about Joseph?

Because others have gone through it

This “Holy Spirit” logic has a fundamental flaw. Right now I view Christianity as having fundamental theological flaws that stop me from believing. You may say I cannot understand these issues I have with Christianity as I am not Christian, and thus not touched by the Holy Spirit. However, the flaws I find with Christianity stop me from becoming Christian and from being touched by the Holy Spirit. How am I supposed to reconcile thisif I wish to become Christian?

I'm sorry I didn't look at your other posts after this one. I've been busy all day. I'm glad we got onto something interesting. I don't know much about the Holy Spirit.

This is a MAJOR point you raise here! And the idea is certainly new, or post-modern, as compared to Judaism. I would say the foundation was laid all along, and have a very detailed (long) thread that goes into that at length, but aside from all that here's some simple ideas:

1) You are referring to the new birth, whether you realize it or not. I have heard it taught this this, as well as Baptism, was well-established in Jewish practice by Jesus' day. I don't know about that, but I don't find those in Scripture.

2) The new birth is indeed a miracle, perhaps the greatest of all, and directly addresses your first point in this post, as well as mine. No Christian is left comfortless, w/ nothing but a book as the basis for their Faith!

3) Some roles of the Holy Spirit within the Church are clarified:

a) He testifies of Christ. Specifically this includes showing us those things in OT Scripture that pertain to Jesus. Jesus did this for a couple disciples on the road to Emmaus. I prayed to have that same thing, and that prayer was answered. (Although in my case it took a lot longer than one afternoon, and I'm not at all sure i got it all)

While you mention struggling with an apparent disconnect between OT and NT, I point out that the OT Priest and King were anointed with the Holy Spirit,
and here we see some real continuity.

b) He convinces us of sin, righteousness, and Judgment.

c) He leads and guides us. Is this not in line with the idea of the "Shepherd of Israel?"

I posit that Christianity is the Blessing of Abraham, made available to all the nations, as Promised; and therefore G-d's Ancient work.

 

[EmmaXO]

what you are describing in your first sentence is circular logic. That is NOT Biblical Christianity. I could suppose that a lot of the ills in modern churchianity are due to people that have nothing else

People who lack the Holy Spirit? Does the Holy Spirit give you a feeling? A feeling of love or understanding? I do not think "miracles", feelings, or emotions are evidence of God or a Holy Spirit. When we need to rely on miracles and the happy-happies something gives us, we may very well be deceiving ourselves from seeing the truth. You know faith healers and the talking in your spirit tongue stuff? Is this being moved by the Spirit?

Benny Hinn: Let the Bodies Hit the Floor - YouTube

G-d is not the author of confusion, but He does speak to us at the level of our need. For example, I have experience with the "Jesus Only" movement, and it's founding is based on Divine revelation. Of course it didn't take people long to pollute that with false ideas. I have no idea what Swedenborgian is, despite my Swedish last name. I believe LDS is a cult. Most denoms that are actually Christian, do in fact minister to their adherents. So often the differences that go beyond mere practice, are over things we don't really know anyway. I usually refer to such things as 'arguing about how many angels fit on the head of a pin.'

So people's opinions play a part when it comes to issues and denominations. Swedenborgian is a Christian denomination which rejects the Trinity.

I don't think LDS is a cult. They think they are following Jesus to the best of their abilities. They are based on the belief Joseph Smith had a divine revelation. Wouldn't that make them a Christian denomination?

Why would the Holy Spirit not move you on the most important issues? Why do some Christians reject the Trinity? Is a part of the Trinity moving them to reject the Trinity?

I'm not. Not only do I not believe in it, I am against denominationalism as such. A quick review: I'm Methodist, because there is a method to coming to G-d. I'm Baptist, because being Baptized is important. I'm Lutheran, because I believe Luther did what was necessary at the time. I'm Pentecostal, because the Day of Pentecost is when the Church started. (I could continue with the list, but I can't bring myself to invent one for Catholicism; maybe some day)

What's so wrong with Catholics? Aren't they moved by the Spirit too?

This is a tough one for me, and I'm glad I don't sit that high as to have an opinion that matters. i will state that the people within those groups I've encountered have been very sincere. I think they're sincerely deceived, by cults. I would hope some from within those groups will be Saved.

Why would they not be saved? Did the Holy Spirit spark the movement or not? If the Holy Spirit started the movement, in the people's hands got in it, as they did in all denomination, why are they not saved?


If I (or Christianity) stated that, you should have a problem with it; however, that's not what's being stated. Jesus not only IS the law, He is the very Word of G-d, made flesh![/QUOTE]

-The messiah has to complete all the prophecies or he is not the messiah
-The messiah has to be a descendant of David
-According to the Christian view of scripture, the messiah fulfills the law and is also divine
-Descent is in relation to Jewish law, stating women pass on Judaism and men pass on tribe and lineage
-Jesus is not descended of David through Joseph, and Mary could only pass on Judaism when the law is ended.
-Jesus could not end the law as he has not met a requirement to be the messiah. No one would be able to meet this.

The only way Jesus could be the messiah and meet the requirement is if he ended the law which he couldn't because he didn't meet a requirement. This is the problem I have with this. If I say something like "Joseph's line was cursed", and you respond "Why would Joseph's genealogy matter anyway. You don't think legal descent is valid anyway". I only go back to the legal descent issue because you said you believe it and I find it present issues. If I always just said, "I don't believe in God, so none of this matters anyway" discussions would be quite short. The messiah being a descendant of David is firmly established.

I'm having technical difficulties so this is all I can post for now.

 

[razeontherock]

These are getting long and while I will get through this, I just wanted to point out that I'm a big fan of that youtube viddy. Have you seen the one with the Star Wars light sabers? It's even better

 

[razeontherock]

People who lack the Holy Spirit? Does the Holy Spirit give you a feeling? A feeling of love or understanding? I do not think "miracles", feelings, or emotions are evidence of God or a Holy Spirit. When we need to rely on miracles and the happy-happies something gives us, we may very well be deceiving ourselves from seeing the truth. You know faith healers and the talking in your spirit tongue stuff? Is this being moved by the Spirit?

Biblical Love is not a feeling, and neither is understanding. These points are objectively true. The other things you ask about here, I don't see how they can be answered in any "correct" way, online like this. An actual miracle, actually IS evidence of something supernatural, or Spiritual, by definition.

This has no bearing on you, if you have no such experience.

I don't think LDS is a cult. They think they are following Jesus to the best of their abilities. They are based on the belief Joseph Smith had a divine revelation. Wouldn't that make them a Christian denomination?

Per their teachings, who do they say Jesus is? Someone quite different from Christianity. That is the central issue. An individual member of that group may well follow Jesus to the best of their ability, and I would hope they can find Grace that way. (JW teachings have a similar problem)

Why would the Holy Spirit not move you on the most important issues? Why do some Christians reject the Trinity? Is a part of the Trinity moving them to reject the Trinity?

Beyond the fact that not everyone is ready or willing to receive Truth, concepts of Trinity do nothing but confuse some people. And it is no be-all and end-all of revelation regarding who G-d is. I can very well see Him moving some people along, past that point and onto whatever they need. He's like that!

What's so wrong with Catholics? Aren't they moved by the Spirit too?

I just have a personal problem with their history of torturing, maiming and killing their fellow believers, for their Faith. Whenever I see a Catholic Brother or Sister sensibly renounce such things it does my heart a world of good, and whenever I see one defend such atrocity it makes my Viking blood boil as if I were in the middle of the 30 year's war. (Which my ancestors no doubt were, along with the sacking of Rome before that)

Why would they not be saved? Did the Holy Spirit spark the movement or not? If the Holy Spirit started the movement, in the people's hands got in it, as they did in all denomination, why are they not saved?

Of those things I would consider denominations, I would say there was at least an element of Truth in it's inception. LDS and JW, I don't see how that could possibly be. They are WAY off on the most important thing, the Person of Christ.

-The messiah has to complete all the prophecies or he is not the messiah

That is a purely Jewish idea, and does not take into account time AT ALL. While this is terribly short-sighted, being blinded in this fashion is absolutely part of G-d's plan, so that the rest of us would have a chance to receive His Blessing. Eventually Jesus will fulfill the rest, and that is when the rest of the Jews will believe

-Jesus could not end the law as he has not met a requirement to be the messiah. No one would be able to meet this.

I'm not sure what you mean here? "No one would be able to meet this?" (Also I still take exception to your "ending the law" idea)

 

[EmmaXO]

I have heard it taught this this, as well as Baptism, was well-established in Jewish practice by Jesus' day. I don't know about that, but I don't find those in Scripture.


Do you mean literal, baptism? The first thing I thought of when I read that was Mikvah in Judaism for ritual purity.

mikvah - Google Search

If you're bored of this we can end it. We're getting off topic anyway.

 

[razeontherock]

You have exhausted my knowledge of the title question. Since it is central, many things are related. It's up to you what you feel is worth pursuing, but I do think it appropriate to point out that being born of a Virgin precludes any patriarchal connection, outside of legal succession (Being "of Joseph's house," not that I really know the ramifications)

 

[razeontherock]

Just to lighten things up a bit:

Benny Hinn, The Force and a Mad Lightsaber - YouTube

 

[EmmaXO]

You have exhausted my knowledge of the title question. Since it is central, many things are related. It's up to you what you feel is worth pursuing, but I do think it appropriate to point out that being born of a Virgin precludes any patriarchal connection, outside of legal succession (Being "of Joseph's house," not that I really know the ramifications)

Yeah, I know that. I'm okay with ending this if you are.

 

[Maranatha27]

Hi Emma good Question! This is really a central theme in the Bible. It starts in the Garden with Adam and Eve after sin entered the Human race. The Promised Seed who is the Lord Jesus Christ is prophesied to come in Genesis 3:15.

Then we see Gods plan in action after the flood with God calling out Abraham and promising the Seed through his line, then his son Isaac, then Jacob who's name was later changed to Israel and was the father of the 12 tribes of Israel. The Line continued through his 4th son Judah.

Not going through the geneology to finely Ruth (Book named after her) and Boaz had a child named Obed and Obed had Jesse and Jesse had 7 sons i believe and one of them was David. The story of David is well know, killed a lion, a bear, Goliaith and sadly Uriah too.

In 2 Samuel 7 While David is the King the promise of the Seed, who is the Lord Jesus Christ is confirmed through his line. It is a major covenant in the Bible known as the Davidic covenant.

There is a major dilema that occurs in the line kings from Davids line. In Jeremiah 22 before the nation of Judah is carried away to Babylon a curse is placed on the line by God never to prosper on the throne again.

[28] Is this man Coniah a despised broken idol? is he a vessel wherein is no pleasure? wherefore are they cast out, he and his seed, and are cast into a land which they know not?
[29] O earth, earth, earth, hear the word of the LORD.
[30] Thus saith the LORD, Write ye this man childless, a man that shall not prosper in his days: for no man of his seed shall prosper, sitting upon the throne of David, and ruling any more in Judah.

Now the Book of Matthew is the first book in the New Testement and the audience intended by the Holy Spirit is the Jew. This Gospel was specifically written for the Jew and presents the Lord Jesus Christ as the King of Israel like no other Gospel. The Geneology is Joshephs geneology. It is the line of the rightful king of Israel.

The Geneology that we find in Luke is Marys Geneology. This is not the King's line because after David his son Nathan is in the Geneology rather than Solomon.

So the Blood that flowed in the veins of our Lord Jesus Christ was indeed from David's line. Though the cursed bloodline of the Kings from David mentioned in Jeremiah 22 flowed in his Step father Joshephs viens. Josheph owns Jesus as his son, putting Jesus in the rightful line of the Throne of Israel, from David bypassing the cursed bloodline!