How is Jesus descended from David?

[EmmaXO]

Well, you could say the entire Bible is biased then, and therefore every man a possible liar, and you are trying to disprove the Bible from the Bible. This isn't very logical or convincing.

Here, chew on this:

Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Isa 9:6-7 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. (7) Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

Since the scripture itself testifies that Jesus would be God and conceived through the power of the Holy Spirit, it would appear that there cannot be any possible logical issue with Christ's birth. Attempting to disprove the Bible from the Bible is irrational.



Based on what? Your random opinion?




Is there a point somewhere in this? You're trying too hard. Joseph was the legal father of Jesus. Thus Jesus was descended from David through Mary, and legally from David through Joseph, as testifies the scripture.

By the way, this forum isn't for debating nonsense such as this. It says quite specifically to take these issues to the theology or other forums. It's quite clear that you are arguing just to argue and that you are no seeker. So take it to where it belongs, instead of adding to yet more clutter to this forum.

How do you think Jews go on when their scripture is so absolutely convincing Jesus is the messiah? They have their own interpretations of those verses and there isn't any Jesus in them. This is a whole 'nother can of worms. I'm not going to take you up on this here. And:

1. I already knew that stuff was in the bible
2. I don't think any of those verses are talking about Jesus
3. I don't believe in God

Apparently the bible says the messiah will be conceived through God but will be a blood descendant of David through his father. That kind of seems like a major plot hole.

How does one join a bloodline through adoption? Isn't Joseph from a cursed line anyway?

At first I was trying to be civil and polite, and then I get sarcastic remarks. I really had the intention of discussion and civilness and questions.

I'm not even allowed to debate in Theology. It's for Christians only.

 

[razeontherock]

Mathew was desperately trying to create a relation of David to Jesus.

Nope. Holy men spake of old, as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

He traces Jesus from Abraham. Perhaps a little unnecessary. Unless you want to convince everyone beyond a doubt Jesus is Jewish.

All you're saying here, is you miss the point.

Matthew wanted to prove Jesus was a descendant of David since this is qualification to be the messiah, even if he had to do it legally.

"Even if?" Even if has no place here. Matthew records the legality.

He never says Joseph is the father of Jesus. He connects Jesus to Mary, and Mary to Joseph.

Again, how is this news?

 

[EmmaXO]

Nope. Holy men spake of old, as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Now we're going on the basis that everything in Matthew is true because Matthew because Matthew said so? That''s ridiculous. You're insistence he was right doesn't make it so.

I have no idea why Matthew would write any of this stuff. I have no idea why he would consider Jesus the messiah. I have no idea why he cites a Nazarene prophecy that never existed. I don't think we should believe him without question because he was supposedly moved by God. You wouldn't award anyone else this infallibility so why award it to the bible authors?


You're missing what I'm saying a bit.

Please explain to me how Jesus is physically descended from David through blood as required so he could be the messiah.

 

[razeontherock]

No, I'm understanding exactly what you're saying, and graciously not reporting the rule violation. You started out asking a perfectly legitimate question; this forum exists to explain exactly such things from the Christian perspective.

It does not exist so you can mock, ridicule, attack, nor even argue our Faith. And we do recognize when a person is not accepting it, which is of course your right.

The fact is, we DO know why Matthew would write this stuff, and why he knew Jesus to be the Messiah: G-d has shown that to each of us here. Please do not think the Faith is limited to a book!

Your last sentence, is apparently not a requirement. With precedent! How could all Nations become children of Abraham? This is a deep Truth embedded within the genealogies, and I do hope you might get a glimpse ...

 

[EmmaXO]

No, I'm understanding exactly what you're saying, and graciously not reporting the rule violation. You started out asking a perfectly legitimate question; this forum exists to explain exactly such things from the Christian perspective.

It does not exist so you can mock, ridicule, attack, nor even argue our Faith. And we do recognize when a person is not accepting it, which is of course your right.

The fact is, we DO know why Matthew would write this stuff, and why he knew Jesus to be the Messiah: G-d has shown that to each of us here. Please do not think the Faith is limited to a book!

Your last sentence, is apparently not a requirement. With precedent! How could all Nations become children of Abraham? This is a deep Truth embedded within the genealogies, and I do hope you might get a glimpse ...

I'm sorry for bickering.

I don't think you can just be adopted into the Davidic line. That kind of voids the point. Now anybody could be from the Davidic line.

Please tell me how Jesus was adopted into the Davidic line and is now a blood descendant of David.

 

[razeontherock]

I'm sorry for bickering.

I don't think you can just be adopted into the Davidic line. That kind of voids the point. Now anybody could be from the Davidic line.

Please tell me how Jesus was adopted into the Davidic line and is now a blood descendant of David.

Please tell me how I could inherit the Blessing of Abraham!

 

[EmmaXO]

Please tell me how I could inherit the Blessing of Abraham!

Stop ignoring the issue. Please just answer the question, straight up. And no, that did not answer the question.


May we please start conducting this more like a Q&A session less like a "let's just yell at each other over the internet session".

Why is Jesus' adoption of Joseph into the Davidic line valid? The adoption is kind of just implied not even really directly stated.

Since there are conflicting opinions, who's genealogy is really given in Luke 3?

Did Mary only pass on Judaism to Jesus?

Why did someone provide verses they believe say the messiah will be conceived through God but descended through the male line of King David? How can you have no earthly father, but be from an earthly line? Seems like a glaring contradiction.

Would an Israelite child have two lineages--one from their mother and one from their father? Would they have to choose one or accept both? Wouldn't this lead to awkward situations such as children with two very different lineages?

Why is Jesus the messiah if he is only descended from David spiritually or through adoption?

Who do Christians view tribal lineage and Judaism as being passed on by?

If tribal identity and lineage through the mother valid, is patrilinial descent into Judaism valid. AKA, if your father is Jewish are you Jewish? Seems like a double standard if a mother could pass on a lineage but a father could not pass on Judaism.

 

[razeontherock]

Sorry, but you fail to see it is one and the same issue. G-d is like that!

 

[EmmaXO]

Sorry, but you fail to see it is one and the same issue. G-d is like that!

I've now asked, "How was Jesus adopted into the tribe and lineage of Joseph?" four times and yet no one has answered.

Perhaps I'll understand God better if the question is actually answered!

 

[razeontherock]

I've now asked, "How was Jesus adopted into the tribe and lineage of Joseph?" four times and yet no one has answered.

Perhaps I'll understand God better if the question is actually answered!

When I wrote the above post, your previous post was one line. In that context, it made sense. You see, the Truth G-d is getting at is not some mere technicality such as Gentiles inheriting Abraham's Blessing, or Jesus' descent from David. It is FAR greater than any of that, which is why He gives it to us in SO many different forms, in the hopes that sooner or later, one of them will dawn on us!

Addressing the details, you wrote:

"Jesus' adoption of Joseph into the Davidic line valid? The adoption is kind of just implied not even really directly stated."

I find your last statement here to be correct, so I'm not going to go making something up. Consider:

Mark 12:36 For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool."

So Jesus is above such triviality. He (as the pre-incarnate Christ) is Creator of all, and did not limit Himself to merely human form, even while human. As G-d, He made the rules. As G-d the Son, He follows the rules created by G-d the Father.

Your dilemma here is bypassed. There is a logic in the Spirit, but there comes a point where our natural reasoning cannot grasp it. Perhaps this topic will reach that point for you?

"Since there are conflicting opinions, who's genealogy is really given in Luke
3?"

The video I linked addresses this rather well. It is the straightest answer I've ever seen.

"Did Mary only pass on Judaism to Jesus?"

Mary passed on humanity to Jesus!

"Why is Jesus the messiah if he is only descended from David spiritually or through adoption?"

Both his parents did, in fact, descend from David. Ok, one of those "parents" was adoptive. If you choose to tell G-d He's wrong about this go ahead, but leave me out of that!

"Who do Christians view tribal lineage and Judaism as being passed on by?"

Christianity does not deal with this at all. I think what you're hung up on, is Jesus had only 1 human parent. He was part of Joseph's "house." This is a 100% unique situation!

 

[FundiMentalist]

As G-d, He made the rules. As G-d the Son, He follows the rules created by G-d the Father.

Not sure I can reconcile that with John 1:1-14.

 

[razeontherock]

I think it fits nicely, but any hashing out we might do should be done via PM, or somewhere other than this non-debate sub-forum

 

[EmmaXO]

When I wrote the above post, your previous post was one line. In that context, it made sense. You see, the Truth G-d is getting at is not some mere technicality such as Gentiles inheriting Abraham's Blessing, or Jesus' descent from David. It is FAR greater than any of that, which is why He gives it to us in SO many different forms, in the hopes that sooner or later, one of them will dawn on us!

Addressing the details, you wrote:

"Jesus' adoption of Joseph into the Davidic line valid? The adoption is kind of just implied not even really directly stated."

I find your last statement here to be correct, so I'm not going to go making something up. Consider:

Mark 12:36 For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool."

So Jesus is above such triviality. He (as the pre-incarnate Christ) is Creator of all, and did not limit Himself to merely human form, even while human. As G-d, He made the rules. As G-d the Son, He follows the rules created by G-d the Father.

This is if we already hold a Christian viewpoint and have decided Jesus is above the triviality of the laws. I believe it's also a Christian believe that you are grafted into the blessing of Abraham.

Is Jesus above being a descendant of David even if this is a prophecy? How is Jesus the messiah but above fulfilling the prophecies or keeping the law?

I might be misunderstanding what you're saying here.

Your dilemma here is bypassed. There is a logic in the Spirit, but there comes a point where our natural reasoning cannot grasp it. Perhaps this topic will reach that point for you?

I don't believe in being moved by the spirit. "You can't understand without the Holy Spirit' sounds like, "When someone has a pressing question that cannot be answered we have to chalk it up to the mystery of God."

I do not believe a belief in God is a prerequisite for understanding Christianity. The Holy Spirit seems like a way out of explaining contradictions or unanswerable questions.

"Since there are conflicting opinions, who's genealogy is really given in Luke 3?"

The video I linked addresses this rather well. It is the straightest answer I've ever seen.

Thank you. I watched the video. It was an interesting perspective. I don't necessarily believe it's accurate though. Some people seemed to believe Mary passed on the lineage.

Did Mary only pass on Judaism to Jesus?

Mary passed on humanity to Jesus!

That's nice. But being the mother of Jesus, did she pass on her Judaism?

Why is Jesus the messiah if he is only descended from David spiritually or through adoption?

Both his parents did, in fact, descend from David. Ok, one of those "parents" was adoptive. If you choose to tell G-d He's wrong about this go ahead, but leave me out of that!

Where exactly is Mary's genealogy coming from if Luke is also about Joseph? You are going on the basis Jesus is God come to earth and the messiah. If we think in someone else's shoes for a moment maybe everything Jesus said or the genealogies about Jesus aren't actually accurate. I feel like you're saying, "It's accurate, because it's accurate."

"You won't be able to understand this because you're not Christian", "Jesus is exempt", and "Jesus is descended from David because God" isn't an explanation.

Why is Jesus exempt from fulfilling a prophecy? Doesn't the messiah have to fulfill all the prophecies? That seems a little far fetched. If the messiah is above fulfilling the prophecies how can we verify a man is actually the messiah? I know Christians believe Jesus is divine.

Someone could pretty much walk up, declare they were the messiah and that they were God and thus didn't have to fulfill the prophecies. Again, I may not be understanding you correctly. I think you mean Jesus is God and thus above human triviality. This seems like a glaring contradiction. "The messiah has to fulfill all the prophecies of the messiah, but the messiah is God, and thus exempt from fulfilling all prophecies." But I'm getting the feeling you believe Jesus is descended from David anyway.

How did Mary pass on the tribe and lineage?

 

[Steve Petersen]

I've now asked, "How was Jesus adopted into the tribe and lineage of Joseph?" four times and yet no one has answered.

Perhaps I'll understand God better if the question is actually answered!

There is a passage in the NT (Luke 3:23) where Jesus is 'supposed' the son of Joseph. If you look at the Greek, it can mean 'to do by law.'

 

[razeontherock]

This is if we already hold a Christian viewpoint and have decided Jesus is above the triviality of the laws. I believe it's also a Christian believe that you are grafted into the blessing of Abraham.

Right. The Bible is a book for believers.

Is Jesus above being a descendant of David even if this is a prophecy? How is Jesus the messiah but above fulfilling the prophecies or keeping the law?

I might be misunderstanding what you're saying here.

I don't see how. Jesus has no earthly Father. Obviously something else is intended.

I don't believe in being moved by the spirit. "You can't understand without the Holy Spirit' sounds like, "When someone has a pressing question that cannot be answered we have to chalk it up to the mystery of God."

Except it isn't.

I do not believe a belief in God is a prerequisite for understanding Christianity. The Holy Spirit seems like a way out of explaining contradictions or unanswerable questions.

Not at all. There is exoteric knowledge, which is open to you upon reading, just like anyone else. There is also esoteric knowledge, not available to you while you remain on the outside.

Thank you. I watched the video. It was an interesting perspective. I don't necessarily believe it's accurate though. Some people seemed to believe Mary passed on the lineage.

While I have no opinion on that, the video did address the idea of Luke being Mary's genealogy rather thoroughly.

That's nice. But being the mother of Jesus, did she pass on her Judaism?

Of course. That's the way it works, and Jesus was a Jew.

Where exactly is Mary's genealogy coming from if Luke is also about Joseph?

Obviously from somewhere else, right? Such records are kept.

You are going on the basis Jesus is God come to earth and the messiah.

That is the only way to approach the Bible, and get any sense out of it. Otherwise you just wind up haggling over trivialities.

 

[EmmaXO]

Right. The Bible is a book for believers.



I don't see how. Jesus has no earthly Father. Obviously something else is intended.



Except it isn't.



Not at all. There is exoteric knowledge, which is open to you upon reading, just like anyone else. There is also esoteric knowledge, not available to you while you remain on the outside.



While I have no opinion on that, the video did address the idea of Luke being Mary's genealogy rather thoroughly.



Of course. That's the way it works, and Jesus was a Jew.



Obviously from somewhere else, right? Such records are kept.



That is the only way to approach the Bible, and get any sense out of it. Otherwise you just wind up haggling over trivialities.

If you have to be Christian to understand the bible, how exactly do you explain converts?
How do you explain Christians who stop believing?
Why are there different denominations?
Is the Holy Spirit moving everyone in different directions?
Why do Christians have different interpretations of the bible?
What if a Christian just couldn’t understand something?
Does the Holy Spirit give you a more thorough understanding of the Bible, or does it just make you quash any doubts?
Why would a God want us to believe anything we’re told?

Where is Mary’s genealogy? As in, what source are you using? I thought you believed both of the genealogies were about Joseph.

I wouldn’t call this a triviality. If Jesus isn’t descended from David he cannot be the messiah. There goes a major tenant of Christianity.

It doesn’t fare well for Christianity when a very simple, but fundamental question cannot be answered without me being Christian.

Is Jesus above fulfilling prophecies?

Did Jesus fulfill all prophecies?

Are there any other instances in the bible when an adopted child taking on the tribe of the father. Not culturally, like any other biological kid would.

Did Jesus inherit the bloodline of David through his Mother or Father?

Is Mary eligible to pass on the line? I personally do not think so. She would pass on Judaism. Her genealogy is never directly mentioned in the bible anyway.

Is Joseph's line cursed because of Jechoniah?

 

[Enkil]

There is a passage in the NT (Luke 3:23) where Jesus is 'supposed' the son of Joseph. If you look at the Greek, it can mean 'to do by law.'

Excellent pointing that out. I was looking in the wrong chapter for it, so I didn't use it.

 

[ChristianT]

i don't mean to be off topic, but what does "MCA" mean (your siggy)?

Just so this doesn't get deleted: are you satisfied with my answer that the lineages could be simple theory? and since Jesus had no physical father, the bloodline would have to be inherited from the mother (unless God somehow fashioned the fertilized egg cell with a davidic lineage). I understand she only passed down her Judaism, but if she's His only link to a lineage, shouldn't it be considered from a legal perspective?

 

[EmmaXO]

i don't mean to be off topic, but what does "MCA" mean (your siggy)?

Just so this doesn't get deleted: are you satisfied with my answer that the lineages could be simple theory? and since Jesus had no physical father, the bloodline would have to be inherited from the mother (unless God somehow fashioned the fertilized egg cell with a davidic lineage). I understand she only passed down her Judaism, but if she's His only link to a lineage, shouldn't it be considered from a legal perspective?

Oh, I mean like the song. You know the Smiley face is making the Y.

I don't agree with that really. But in theory, Jesus would just have no lineage because he has no father. Mary's genealogy seems to be a tad up in the air anyway. Bloodlines aren't a legal thing.

Thank you for being respectful.

 

[Enkil]

It's better for everyone not to engage you further on this and your farce of an alleged Q and A. You have proven yourself a troll on these issues. All questions have been sufficiently answered, on multiple occasions, and you no longer have any legitimate replies to them (ignoring them is not a reply). Your beef here was never with me or even on the topics you trolled on about. It was with God. This is why no answer would ever be sufficient, and why you accuse us now of making arguments we have never made. It's also why you make such a big deal out of your victimhood. Because your problem, again, is not about the issues you claim to be at hand. I do enjoy trolling arrogant people with their own medicine, but only when it comes to this point. However, it has to stop at some point, otherwise it never ends. Better to let the thread die, and not to feed the trolling any further.

My greatest beef with this particular forum area, which has annoyed me greatly for years coming in here, is the vast amount of threads like these where atheists abuse the good natured replies of the Christians who come here to help. It is so clotted with these spam-like threads that it is virtually unusable by anyone really seeking answers to important questions. It is best to smash the trolls as soon as possible, rather than letting them run wild. I really wish the mods would better supervise these areas and get clued in on the differences between people asking questions, and those who are just arguing to argue.