How is it consistent to criticize the left for hating America AND not having an objective morality ?

[Larniavc]

So you disagree that “Actions intended to cause undesirable things to happen to people is immoral.”

I do disagree. Undesirable could mean an oligarch objects to a union rep being protected from being murdered by the oligarch’s lackeys.

 

[Hammster]

They’d have to argue that the end doesn’t justify the means, where our hypothetical specifically has the ends justifying them. They couldn’t do it.

Now you’ve changed again. Now it’s that things can be undesirable as long as the ends justify the means.

So we are back to slavery being okay.

 

[Hammster]

What do you mean by “fairness of outcome”?

For instance, do we try to ensure that everyone has a chance at making $200000, or do we just give everyone $200000?

I explain to them why they are wrong.

And you change your mind when they explain why you are wrong, correct?

I always assume my measuring stick is accurate, until proven otherwise.

That doesn’t explain how you know it’s accurate.

How do you know your measuring stick is accurate?

Scripture.

 

[Hammster]

I do disagree. Undesirable could mean an oligarch objects to a union rep being protected from being murdered by the oligarch’s lackeys.

Yep.

 

[Ken-1122]

For instance, do we try to ensure that everyone has a chance at making $200000, or do we just give everyone $200000?

That sounds more like EQUAL opportunity vs equal outcome. IMO equal opportunity is a must in a fair society; equal outcome is impossible in a fair society.

And you change your mind when they explain why you are wrong, correct?

If that were to happen; correct. The way I see it, when an honest man is proven wrong, he has 2 choices; he can stop being wrong, or he can stop being honest. I try to be honest.

That doesn’t explain how you know it’s accurate.

Keep in mind; 100% certainty is not necessary for everybody

Scripture.

And if scripture is proven wrong? Do you stop being wrong? Or do you stop being honest.

 

[Hammster]

That sounds more like EQUAL opportunity vs equal outcome. IMO equal opportunity is a must in a fair society; equal outcome is impossible in a fair society.

Some folks think equal outcome is fair.

If that were to happen; correct. The way I see it, when an honest man is proven wrong, he has 2 choices; he can stop being wrong, or he can stop being honest. I try to be honest.

I’m sure you do. But you use yourself as the guide to right or wrong.

Keep in mind; 100% certainty is not necessary for everybody

I know.

And if scripture is proven wrong? Do you stop being wrong? Or do you stop being honest.

Scripture isn’t wrong.

 

[gaara4158]

Now you’ve changed again. Now it’s that things can be undesirable as long as the ends justify the means.

So we are back to slavery being okay.

You are stripping the moral calculus from a specific moral judgment in order to extract a blanket moral declaration, which is incorrect. This is equivalent to declaring that murder is ok under your god-based moral framework because of the times God commits or commands it in the story. You’re arguing in bad faith.

 

[Hammster]

You are stripping the moral calculus from a specific moral judgment in order to extract a blanket moral declaration, which is incorrect. This is equivalent to declaring that murder is ok under your god-based moral framework because of the times God commits or commands it in the story. You’re arguing in bad faith.

I used your own arguments. Feel free to show how I used them incorrectly.

 

[gaara4158]

I used your own arguments. Feel free to show how I used them incorrectly.

My arguments were crafted to mirror yours. You successfully discovered that the basis is arbitrary or subjective when presented to you as a non-theistic moral framework. But now all of your objections also apply to your theistic framework. How will you resolve this?

 

[Hammster]

My arguments were crafted to mirror yours. You successfully discovered that the basis is arbitrary or subjective when presented to you as a non-theistic moral framework. But now all of your objections also apply to your theistic framework. How will you resolve this?

That doesn’t show how I used your argument incorrectly.

 

[gaara4158]

That doesn’t show how I used your argument incorrectly.

You used it correctly. But it also applies to your framework.

You were doing moral calculus incorrectly, but that’s fine. My argument actually benefits from your error.

 

[Hammster]

You used it correctly. But it also applies to your framework.

You were doing moral calculus incorrectly, but that’s fine. My argument actually benefits from your error.

How does it apply to my framework?

 

[Ken-1122]

Some folks think equal outcome is fair.

Are you one of those people?

Scripture isn’t wrong.

Anybody can say that; but how do you know?( I could just as easily say I am never wrong) What method do you employ to verify Scripture is never wrong?

 

[Hammster]

Are you one of those people?

No.

Anybody can say that; but how do you know?( I could just as easily say I am never wrong) What method do you employ to verify Scripture is never wrong?

It’s self-authenticating. And you’ve admitted that you could be wrong.

 

[gaara4158]

How does it apply to my framework?

You have no objective basis for your moral framework other than something you picked arbitrarily because it subjectively made sense to you.

Or, to shorten it in your style, you have no basis for morality.

 

[Hammster]

You have no objective basis for your moral framework other than something you picked arbitrarily because it subjectively made sense to you.

Or, to shorten it in your style, you have no basis for morality.

I do. It comes from God.

 

[gaara4158]

I do. It comes from God.

Which you subjectively feel is a good basis, but you have no objective basis for that determination.

 

[Hammster]

Which you subjectively feel is a good basis, but you have no objective basis for that determination.

It’s the truth.
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.
— John 14:6

Sanctify them in the truth; Your word is truth.
— John 17:17

 

[gaara4158]

It’s the truth.
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.
— John 14:6

Sanctify them in the truth; Your word is truth.
— John 17:17

All someone would have to say is it’s not the truth and there are no morals, by your standard.

 

[Hammster]

All someone would have to say is it’s not the truth and there are no morals, by your standard.

They can say whatever they want. I can’t stop them.