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How is it consistent to criticize the left for hating America AND not having an objective morality ?

Hammster

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So an objective reason to ban it is unnecessary for you?
Based on your question, I can see that you’ve missed the point.

Here’s what I said. Again. “Actually, I know that atheists can and do believe murder is wrong. They just don’t have an objective reason for believing it.”

So both Christians and atheists believe that murder is wrong. The difference is objective reasoning. Christians can give an objective, unwavering reason as to why it’s wrong. So far, atheists cannot do the same.
 
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NxNW

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So both Christians and atheists believe that murder is wrong. The difference is objective reasoning. Christians can give an objective, unwavering reason as to why it’s wrong. So far, atheists cannot do the same.
Your paragraph above explains why you refrain from committing murder, but not why you lack the desire to commit it.
 
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Hammster

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Your paragraph above explains why you refrain from committing murder, but not why you lack the desire to commit it.
I’m not sure how that pertains to the topic.
 
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Ken-1122

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Ok, then. So, I stand corrected: I should recognize that you actually want a discussion with me because you're genuinely interested in what I have to say
Correct!
, even though you've already indicated that you strongly surmise you'll likely disagree with just about anything I might say,
I don’t recall saying that, but assuming I did; it’s likely because much of what you’ve said thus far I’ve not agreed with
strawman/interpolate some things I say, and you'll ignore any sources which inform my own position.
I disagree; I won’t ignore any sources you bring to the table, but I will not read any books; I like getting my information from the person I’m talking to.
I think part of the problem here is that I like discussions that have clear goals rather than just random flotsam of unending questions that trail off into the nether ...

It also doesn't help that you're choice of language is like a gun. What's your intended target and goal here on CF, Ken? To learn from them?
I have no specific target nor goal; I just like conversing with people who think differently than I.
 
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Ken-1122

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So both Christians and atheists believe that murder is wrong. The difference is objective reasoning. Christians can give an objective, unwavering reason as to why it’s wrong. So far, atheists cannot do the same.
Actually atheists can do the same.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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I disagree; I won’t ignore any sources you bring to the table, but I will not read any books; I like getting my information from the person I’m talking to.
What kind of information are you looking for? Do you really want to understand what I think about the world? Why is that of interest to you anyway?

Typically, I'm not looking for information from folks on a public, personal forum, personal or scientific. Learning how other people think about the world is secondary in priority for me.
I have no specific target nor goal; I just like conversing with people who think differently than I.

I see. We're a little different on that count. I have specific goals and reasons for even being here on a public forum, especially if and when I'm having to engage those who think differently than I do.

Going back now to an earlier trope in a previous few posts, I'll say up front that I concpetually divide truth from Truth. One is an aspect of knowledge. The other is a term that no one of us can fully know. For what I do know, it's provisional. I believe truth is provisional.

Reality, by comparison, is what it is whether I know it or not or like it or not. Or even if other people like it or not.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Perhaps I should have been more clear. At my subjective level, Justice is what I consider to be fair. At the legal level, the Department of Justice decides. If you disagree, what do you believe it is?
Justice is what actually 'is' fair rather than what any of us merely thinks it should be or what any leaders necessarily think it should be.

Knowing what justice is is the problem, one that I don't pretend exists in the human social realm without complexities and complications. And it's only something that a God would really know in full.
So according to you, knowledge is not information, and truth is not information that aligns with reality; right? So what is your answer to those questions?
No, that's not what I said. Look again back up in post #542. See the qualifiable difference?

I said: Epistemologists will aver that Knowledge isn't simply information...
You said: So according to you, knowledge is not information...
So according to you, what is the nature of human reality?
That it is what it is, from out of the Void of other Unanswerable Questions.
As I said before; for the most part I am not attempting to make up reality, I more so just react to it.

So, here we come to what for me is an important point of our conversation, where I ask: What does "reacting" to reality mean and/or entail for you in the processes of your daily life?
 
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gaara4158

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That would mean that there was no moral reason to be opposed to slavery.
How so? Just because you don’t like the basis of human morality doesn’t mean there isn’t one.
 
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Hammster

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How so? Just because you don’t like the basis of human morality doesn’t mean there isn’t one.
Perhaps I misunderstood your point. What would be the moral objection to slavery?
 
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Neutral Observer

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So, nowhere am I saying that this one principle alone is enough by which to 'be moral'; it's not an Ethical framework. Just a little ol' principle. It's only a very, very, very basic principle at that, like one dot on a connect the dot drawing that you and I could then color in after we've ... connected all of the many other dots that need to be connected.

Once again I've taken some time to give this some thought, and my conclusion is that I still don't know what this "Unwritten Universal Moral Principle" is, other than perhaps that which everyone intuits to be right or wrong.

Is that what it is? I presume not. Because not everyone intuits the same things to be right or wrong. So therein lies my dilemma. Without knowing what this "Unwritten Universal Moral Principle" is, your argument confuses me.

For example, I could ask whether it's immoral for a fifty year old man to marry and have relations with a ten year old girl. In certain times, and indeed even now in certain cultures, the answer to that question is no, it's not immoral, whereas most people in this day and age would say yes, it is immoral. So we have diverse groups of people intuiting and rationally concluding completely different answers.

Oddly enough, this still doesn't rule out the existence of objective morality, because it may simply be that people just don't understand the nature of morality. Slavery may be perfectly moral in one instance and completely immoral in another. These two things need not be contradictory, nor mutually exclusive.

How can that be?

Well, consider evolution with its own unwritten universal principle of "Survival of the Fittest". That principle holds true no matter what. It's never, ever violated. Yet that doesn't mean that what survives in one scenario will be the same thing that survives in another scenario. So while the underlying principle is never violated, the effect of that principle can and does change over time depending upon the prevailing conditions.

The question then is, is the same thing true with morality, i.e. its "Unwritten Universal Moral Principle" as you put it, never changes, but the way that that principle gets expressed in any given place and time can and does change. Hence slavery may be immoral in one instance, but not in another. In both instances the principle remains the same, but the circumstances don't.

I find this to be an interesting concept, but it also leaves me wondering, if evolution has the simple underlying principle of "Survival of the Fittest" then what's the "Unwritten Universal Moral Principle" behind morality?

So far you haven't explained it to me, and I really, really would like to know.
 
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gaara4158

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Not for the owners. They think it’s morally good, especially if morality is grounded in consequences.
They would have to be ignoring the consequences that apply to the slaves. They’re not doing morality if they’re ignoring consequences.
 
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Hammster

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They would have to be ignoring the consequences that apply to the slaves. They’re not doing morality if they’re ignoring consequences.
Morals are grounded in consequences. The consequences of the slave owners are favorable.
 
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gaara4158

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Morals are grounded in consequences. The consequences of the slave owners are favorable.
And the consequences for the slaves are unfavorable. See? We’re doing morality now. We’re weighing the consequences of a potential action for all who would be affected.
 
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