How is God just?

JGG · Nov 28, 2014

ViaCrucis said:
If we suppose that divine justice is a matter of punishing evil doers, then it would be regarded as unjust for God to pardon the sins of any rather than reckon all condemned. But the biblical concept of divine justice is not that of a punitive, punishing justice but of a healing, restorative justice.

I'm going to stop you right there. The existence of hell in Christian theology is that of a place of eternal punishment of sin. It is not a corrections institute. You've all been very clear about that. God is presented as a judge of sin or crime. That suggests punishment as a means of justice.

The justice of God is revealed in the reality of sinners pardoned, and set right (iustitia) with God and one another. St. Paul in Romans 1 says that by the Gospel the justice of God is revealed. By this the apostle does not mean that justice by which sinners are condemned to hell, but rather that justice by which sinners are reconciled to God. That is, are justified, are made just.

And how does that make God just?

This is the merciful and gracious justice of God

One cannot be merciful and just.

which is the kind of justice which the Bible frequently points to when talking about God's justice. God's justice by which the weak are protected, the sick made well, the hungry fed, and the sinner forgiven. God's justice is about the healing of the world, not the condemnation of the world.

But the weak are not protected, the sick are still sick, the hungry are still hungry, and sinners are sent directly to hell...unless they're not.

JGG · Nov 28, 2014

TheImmortalJellyfish said:
The only unforgivable sin is disbelief in God. (ROM 3:22) You are subject to law enforcement here on Earth regardless.

Yes. Exactly. I will go back to the quote in the other thread: God does not act so much a judge as a Christian Membership Card scanner.

Again, the punishment for this crime is not eternal damnation, but the Bible does say "thou shall not murder" (note: "kill" and "murder" are two different things in the original languages. "Kill" refers to war-time situations).

Anyone who thinks that the ability to just confess and move on gives them carte blanche to go around breaking the law is in violation of many verses of scripture. One example is Galatians ch. 6.

I'm a little confused...you're saying a non-believer can confess and repent to God? How is this possible if he doesn't believe? God knows the heart (mind), so you can't just "pretend"...

Not all who confess and repent of their crimes are Christian. Think Buddhists, Hindus, Taoists.

Because He has always provided a way to be saved from eternal damnation, since we cannot do it in our sinfulness alone, because we're not perfect. It is not our fault that we were all born into sin...it is our fault if we do nothing about it, despite the warnings in the Bible.

That does not make God just. That just means that God allows the Christian to escape justice, and nobody else. That is not just.

A Christian can try to justify murdering someone all he wants, but it's still murder, and it's still sin in the eyes of God. It is not, however, unforgivable. If it was, then even accidental deaths caused by negligence on someone's part would be grounds for eternal damnation. Would that be just?

I thought unrepented sin was grounds for eternal damnation.

At the end of the day, you see that God is not a babysitter...everyone is free to do what they like, believe or not. But man will always, always be accountable for his actions on Earth.

But that's just it, the Christian is not accountable. The Christian is forgiven for their crime, while the non-Christian is punished for the same crime. Forgiveness and mercy mean that one is not held accountable for their crime. How is that just?

Hakan101 · Nov 28, 2014

You may be familiar with this concept even though you're an atheist, but our own righteousness means nothing to God, because on our own we all sin and fall short of salvation. It's kind of like how this world has some good in it, but there's just so much evil. Many people try to rationalize life by appreciating the good things and just try to not let the evil get to them. But this is unacceptable to God. All evil must be paid for, he has a perfect standard of justice. So obviously we cannot uphold it on our own, not after the fall of Adam. Now that Adam fell, sin is in our very nature and we will inevitably rebel against God.

But through Jesus, God provided us a rescue plan. His death on the cross was a perfect sacrifice without sin, and is accepted in our place. Therefore, when we faithe in Jesus as Lord, we are reconciled back to God and Jesus makes us righteous. When God sees us turning back to him and recognizing why we need him in our lives, then he forgives us, no matter what wrong we have done. This forgiveness is only possible because Jesus paid the price for us. When a person is wronged, they become angry and demand that the perpetrator is brought to justice. After that has happened, the wronged person has a choice, to forgive the perpetrator or continue to harbor a grudge. God does not hold a grudge, God loves us and so when we faithe in Jesus, who died for our sins, we are allowed forgiveness. But when we do not faithe in Jesus, then our sins are not counted as paid for, and we must face judgement in the end.

So the Christian is not held accountable, because we are covered by Jesus' sacrifice. To punish us for our sins now would mean that Jesus died in vain, and his sacrifice meant nothing. He went through that whole period on the earth just so we can have salvation by turning to Him. You said in your last post that "God allows the Christian to escape justice, and nobody else." It's actually escaping our own damnation. Justice is now paid for by Jesus. God does not hold the Christian's sin as unfulfilled justice, he holds our sin as paid for. You may not want to accept that idea, but then you are not the one who has been wronged, God is. You are only calling it injustice because you are stubborn and would rather face damnation for your sins, instead of turn to Jesus and be forgiven like he wants you to.

JGG · Nov 28, 2014

Hakan101 said:
You may be familiar with this concept even though you're an atheist, but our own righteousness means nothing to God, because on our own we all sin and fall short of salvation. It's kind of like how this world has some good in it, but there's just so much evil. Many people try to rationalize life by appreciating the good things and just try to not let the evil get to them. But this is unacceptable to God. All evil must be paid for, he has a perfect standard of justice. So obviously we cannot uphold it on our own, not after the fall of Adam. Now that Adam fell, sin is in our very nature and we will inevitably rebel against God.

But through Jesus, God provided us a rescue plan. His death on the cross was a perfect sacrifice without sin, and is accepted in our place. Therefore, when we faithe in Jesus as Lord, we are reconciled back to God and Jesus makes us righteous. When God sees us turning back to him and recognizing why we need him in our lives, then he forgives us, no matter what wrong we have done. This forgiveness is only possible because Jesus paid the price for us. When a person is wronged, they become angry and demand that the perpetrator is brought to justice. After that has happened, the wronged person has a choice, to forgive the perpetrator or continue to harbor a grudge. God does not hold a grudge, God loves us and so when we faithe in Jesus, who died for our sins, we are allowed forgiveness.

So the Christian is not held accountable, because we are covered by Jesus' sacrifice. To punish us for our sins now would mean that Jesus died in vain, and his sacrifice meant nothing. He went through that whole period on the earth just so we can have salvation by turning to Him. You said in your last post that "God allows the Christian to escape justice, and nobody else." It's actually escaping our own damnation. Justice is now paid for by Jesus. God does not hold the Christian's sin as unfulfilled justice, he holds our sin as paid for. You may not want to accept that idea, but then you are not the one who has been wronged, God is. You are only calling it injustice because you are stubborn and would rather face damnation for your sins, instead of turn to Jesus and be forgiven like he wants you to.

Yes. How does that show that God is just? Did the Christian commit a crime? Yes. Do they deserve to be punished? I will presume that you will say yes. Will they receive punishment? No. Would they were they not Christian? Yes. How do we then say that God is just?

Hakan101 · Nov 28, 2014

JGG said:
Yes. How does that show that God is just. Did the Christian commit a crime? Yes. Do they deserve to be punished? I will presume that you will say yes. Will they receive punishment? No. Would they were they not Christian. Yes. How do we then say that God is just?

You presume wrongly. They do not deserve to be punished if they are Christian, because Jesus paid the price. So they do not deserve it and will not receive it, because they don't need to. All sin has been accounted for, Jesus died for all of it. Christians are made spotless and righteous.

JGG · Nov 28, 2014

Hakan101 said:
You presume wrongly. They do not deserve to be punished if they are Christian, because Jesus paid the price. So they do not deserve it and will not receive it, because they don't need to. All sin has been accounted for, Jesus died for all of it. Christians are made spotless and righteous.

If you do not deserve to be punished for sin, how is it sin? The Christian who murdered that woman does not deserve to be punished, the non-Christian who killed a woman deserves to be punished for all eternity. How is God considered just?

Hakan101 · Nov 28, 2014

JGG said:
If you do not deserve to be punished for sin, how is it sin? The Christian who murdered that woman does not deserve to be punished, the non-Christian who killed a woman deserves to be punished for all eternity. How is God considered just?

It is sin because it is an act of rebellion against God. You do not deserve to be punished for it because Jesus' sacrifice covers all sins. If you did not faithe in Jesus, then you do not have Jesus' sacrifice and would deserve punishment, because that sin is not paid for. But through Jesus all sin is paid for. As long as you faithe in Him you are made righteous. God counts your salvation as justified, not as an injustice to Him.

JGG · Nov 28, 2014

Hakan101 said:
It is sin because it is an act of rebellion against God. You do not deserve to be punished for it because Jesus' sacrifice covers all sins. If you did not faithe in Jesus, then you do not have Jesus' sacrifice and would deserve punishment, because that sin is not paid for. But through Jesus all sin is paid for. As long as you faithe in Him you are made righteous. God counts your salvation as justified, not as an injustice to Him.

So Christians will never face consequences for their actions, but non-Christians will. How is that just?

Hakan101 · Nov 28, 2014

JGG said:
So Christians will never face consequences for their actions, but non-Christians will. How is that just?

I already explained it, feel free to read my first post here. I noticed your initial response to me didn't address anything I said except my first sentence.

lt11 · Nov 28, 2014

http://www.openbible.info/topics/false_christians

Hakan101 · Nov 28, 2014

lt11 said:
What Does the Bible Say About False Christians?

I don't think he's talking about false Christians. He's talking about all Christians, he claims God is unjust for giving us a way for salvation.

JGG · Nov 28, 2014

Hakan101 said:
I already explained it, feel free to read my first post here. I noticed your initial response to me didn't address anything I said except my first sentence.

Yes. I'm not going to comment on the many ways in which Jesus is perceived to save. It isn't actually relevant why or how it happens. Only that it does happen. You're saying that the stanard punishment for sin is eternal torture in hell. But Christians' sentences are waived by Jesus. God is not even casting judgment, just checking membership cards.

How is that just? How is sin even relevant if the only sin that one will be punished for is not being Christian?

lt11 · Nov 28, 2014

http://www.gotquestions.org/fruit-of-the-Holy-Spirit.html

lt11 · Nov 28, 2014

Hakan101 said:
I don't think he's talking about false Christians. He's talking about all Christians, he claims God is unjust for giving us a way for salvation.

His original question asks why a Christian who commits murder is forgiven but a non christian who murders is not forgiven. I was under the assumption that he was saying at the time of this murder the perpetrator was a Christian. If a person commits a murder saying that they are Christian I doubt that the person really is a Christian not saying they never can become a Christian but they wouldn't even be close to understanding that we as Christian are not going to remain unchanged by the sacrifice of the Cross

Hakan101 · Nov 28, 2014

JGG said:
Yes. I'm not going to comment on the many ways in which Jesus is perceived to save. It isn't actually relevant why or how it happens. Only that it does happen. You're saying that the standard punishment for sin is eternal torture in hell. But Christians' sentences are waived by Jesus. God is not even casting judgment, just checking membership cards.

How is that just? How is sin even relevant if the only sin that one will be punished for is not being Christian?

This is the ignorant statement of the week. It absolutely matters how it happens. Jesus would not have died on the cross if he didn't have to. But that was the only way for sin to be paid for. The wages of sin is death. Jesus died so we could have our sins washed away and we are made righteous by Him.

Like I said before, you may not want to accept it, but you are not being wronged, God is. God counts all who faithe in Jesus as righteous and without sin, *because* Jesus paid that price. Our salvation is justified through Christ.

You may not like it but I know you can understand it. If you do not faithe in Jesus then your sins are not counted as paid for by his death on the cross. You are still guilty of injustice. And you will held accountable and brought to justice. Jesus wants you to come to Him, he wants you to cast your sins upon Him and become righteous. He died for this very reason, that was the whole purpose of him coming down to Earth. Become justified to God through Him.

Hakan101 · Nov 28, 2014

lt11 said:
His original question asks why a Christian who commits murder is forgiven but a non christian who murders is not forgiven. I was under the assumption that he was saying at the time of this murder the perpetrator was a Christian. If a person commits a murder saying that they are Christian I doubt that the person really is a Christian not saying they never can become a Christian but they wouldn't even be close to understanding that we as Christian are not going to remain unchanged by the sacrifice of the Cross

Right but I am trying to get to the bottom of why he's asking this. He doesn't like the fact that Christians are washed clean from sin while non-believers still face damnation. A Christian could very well lose their way and commit murder, then come to their sense and return to Jesus, and they would be saved because Jesus paid for all of our sins, past, present and future.

lt11 · Nov 28, 2014

After we become Christian by accepting the cross then begins the process of sanctification where we follow what the Bible says and are conforming into the image of Christ who is without sin. In 1John 3 it talks of how when Jesus comes back and the end has come we Christians will be like Christ because we shall see him as he is and then that is the end of sin and the beginning of the new heaven and the new earth

JGG · Nov 28, 2014

Hakan101 said:
This is the ignorant statement of the week. It absolutely matters how it happens. Jesus would not have died on the cross if he didn't have to. But that was the only way for sin to be paid for. The wages of sin is death. Jesus died so we could have our sins washed away and we are made righteous by Him.

Like I said before, you may not want to accept it, but you are not being wronged, God is. God counts all who faithe in Jesus as righteous and without sin, *because* Jesus paid that price. Our salvation is justified through Christ.

You may not like it but I know you can understand it. If you do not faithe in Jesus then your sins are not counted as paid for by his death on the cross.

Everything up to here is not relevant to my question. Sorry, that's just the nature of the question.

You are still guilty of injustice. And you will held accountable and brought to justice.

No. I'm not guilty of injustice, per se. I am presumably guilty of sin. Justice is a matter of balance, and actions having consequences. Injustice is not a synonym for sin. It doesn't matter what the nature of that sin is, who may be a victim if there is one, or what the outcome is the non-Christian will have to deal with the consequences, and somewhat harshly. The Christian will never have to with the consequences of their sin. The Judge ensures they will never face justice.
So how can we say God is just?

What follows is not relevant to my question.

Jesus wants you to come to Him, he wants you to cast your sins upon Him and become righteous. He died for this very reason, that was the whole purpose of him coming down to Earth. Become justified to God through Him.

preacher4truth · Nov 28, 2014

Hakan101 said:
This is the ignorant statement of the week. It absolutely matters how it happens. Jesus would not have died on the cross if he didn't have to. But that was the only way for sin to be paid for. The wages of sin is death. Jesus died so we could have our sins washed away and we are made righteous by Him.

Like I said before, you may not want to accept it, but you are not being wronged, God is. God counts all who faithe in Jesus as righteous and without sin, *because* Jesus paid that price. Our salvation is justified through Christ.

You may not like it but I know you can understand it. If you do not faithe in Jesus then your sins are not counted as paid for by his death on the cross. You are still guilty of injustice. And you will held accountable and brought to justice. Jesus wants you to come to Him, he wants you to cast your sins upon Him and become righteous. He died for this very reason, that was the whole purpose of him coming down to Earth. Become justified to God through Him.

Obviously JGG is conflating the term 'justice' with 'fairness'. But His ways are way beyond ours. Many think God must fit into their concept of what is fair and right or He simply cannot be.

lt11 · Nov 28, 2014

Hakan101 said:
Right but I am trying to get to the bottom of why he's asking this. He doesn't like the fact that Christians are washed clean from sin while non-believers still face damnation. A Christian could very well lose their way and commit murder, then come to their sense and return to Jesus, and they would be saved because Jesus paid for all of our sins, past, present and future.

I agree that Christians are not without sin but I still don't think that anyone who has seen the beauty of the cross and is following Christ uses the cross as a free pass to just remain the same I understand that mistakes are made by Christians because I make them to but I don't think that the sacrifice of Christ was a washout because we stay that way and are just given a free pass and that's the end of the story. The Holy Spirit is also at work in us as we are changing to be like Christ in preparation for our now home at the end of this world

How is God just?

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