How Important Is Docterine When Finding a Mate?

[Blank123]

Not very important really-unless they are very dogmatic in their beliefs.....

As an example..Kirk...and not trying to pick on ya lol...but my thoughts on YOUR beliefs of the accuracy of your denomination being 100pct correct is that it's ...your opinion and not based on Biblical evidence but books and instructions handed down after the fact..in other words..the more dogmatic type "churches"...tend to not really have the Bible backing up their 'beliefs'.

I've always been curious though-was Melissa Lutheran or did she simply 'convert' to your denomination and accept it through and through as 100pct truth-simply because that's the way it has to be for you-or because she agrees.... sorry for the bluntness...maybe i can just ask her at our other home

IIRC Melissa has been Lutheran the whole time she's been posting here. or at least as long as i can remember.

 

[overit]

IIRC Melissa has been Lutheran the whole time she's been posting here. or at least as long as i can remember.

Oh...gotcha..honestly I was just being curious..nosey about that...his stance made me wonder about it ...

 

[JonMiller]

I remember stuff related to two different synods, one was more conservative. I went to Gustavus Adolphus College for my undergrad.

The theology department was definitely liberal, but I think that is usual.

JM

 

[Luther073082]

As an example..Kirk...and not trying to pick on ya lol...but my thoughts on YOUR beliefs of the accuracy of your denomination being 100pct correct is that it's ...your opinion and not based on Biblical evidence but books and instructions handed down after the fact..in other words..the more dogmatic type "churches"...tend to not really have the Bible backing up their 'beliefs'.

I belive that the bible proves that my denomination is 100% correct and other denominations are mistaken.

I also belive the bible calls for us to reject false and unbiblical doctrines.

What makes you think you can be so sure that you are right and me not?

If you want to say things like that prove me wrong biblically, don't just make a accusation.

I've always been curious though-was Melissa Lutheran or did she simply 'convert' to your denomination and accept it through and through as 100pct truth-simply because that's the way it has to be for you-or because she agrees.... sorry for the bluntness...maybe i can just ask her at our other home

Melissa isn't as dogmatic of a Lutheran as I am. But she does accept the doctrines of the Lutheran church and that is what is important to me. She has always been a Lutheran, and I'd thank you to leave underhanded accusations and my personal life out of theological discussions unless you think I am being hypocritical.

 

[overit]

I'm not making underhanded anything-I was just curious if she believed as you do entirely as you have openly said they have to.

As to the rest...I won't argue anything with you-I've found you are extremely dogmatic and black/white view....and I believe your "belief" in the accuracy of your denomination and the error of other denominations is jsut that...your belief...and YOUR truth-not the truth for everyone else, to imply it SHOULD be is out of line. Hold to your beliefs, sure....I just hope that you don't try to impose your truth to others or accuse others of being in error or wrong-simply based on YOUR conclusions to research provided by your denomination (and not the Bible even)...as you mentioned the 500 page reading.

Do we need another mans interpretation of Scripture...500 pages worth of rules/laws created by a church to "explain" the Bible and hence claim 100pct holders of THE TRUTH?

In fact...the reason I'm extremely skeptical of ANYONE adding their rules/laws/rituals/ceremonies/catechism is because of this:

Revelation 22:18-9 which states:

"For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book."

as well as Deuteronomy 4:2:

"Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish [ought] from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you."​

​

And I mean it's up for another board I guess-but really...I have yet to understand the infant/adult baptism preached by the church-as it's in exact opposition of what the Bible says....but alas...
​

 

[Luther073082]

I remember stuff related to two different synods, one was more conservative. I went to Gustavus Adolphus College for my undergrad.

The theology department was definitely liberal, but I think that is usual.

JM

Gustavus Adolphus College - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Evangelical Lutheran Church in America is a non-confessional Lutheran church and also the largest Lutheran denomination.

Evangelical Lutheran Church in America - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In practice its a loose confederation of churchs as the different parishes are allowed a ton of variety in beliefs. So while my parish believes, teaches, and confesses 6 day creationism, the parish in the next town over believes teaches and confesses in theistic evolution.

For this reason and the make-up of the national assembly its considered a liberal church over all.

However its rare for non-confessional churchs to practice closed communion.

There is a major vote comming up on homosexuality. And despite the fact that it will not affect my individual parish, if it passes I will be leaving the ELCA. (There is a strong chance it will fracture the denomination anyways) Sadly most individual ELCA members don't know what the national assembly is doing.

Me leaving I think is a long time comming. I've been able to stay with the ELCA because my parish is individually conservative. That is how a lot of people have been able to stay with the ELCA. But because I've become more confessional & conservativein my understanding, the ELCA has become more liberal. The list of differences I have with the national organization is so large its nearly irreconcilable.

The church I will be going to will the the Lutheran Chruch Missouri Synod. Which is the second largest Lutheran church and it is confessional.

Lutheran Church?Missouri Synod - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Luther073082]

I'm not making underhanded anything-I was just curious if she believed as you do entirely as you have openly said they have to.

As to the rest...I won't argue anything with you-I've found you are extremely dogmatic and black/white view....and I believe your "belief" in the accuracy of your denomination and the error of other denominations is jsut that...your belief...and YOUR truth-not the truth for everyone else, to imply it SHOULD be is out of line. Hold to your beliefs, sure....I just hope that you don't try to impose your truth to others or accuse others of being in error or wrong-simply based on YOUR conclusions to research provided by your denomination (and not the Bible even)...as you mentioned the 500 page reading.

Do we need another mans interpretation of Scripture...500 pages worth of rules/laws created by a church to "explain" the Bible and hence claim 100pct holders of THE TRUTH?

In fact...the reason I'm extremely skeptical of ANYONE adding their rules/laws/rituals/ceremonies/catechism is because of this:

Revelation 22:18-9 which states:

"For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book."

as well as Deuteronomy 4:2:

"Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish [ought] from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you."​

​

Rituals like baptism and communion that Jesus specificially commanded?

Catechisms which explain the basics of the Christian faith for people to understand?

Guilty then.

Have you ever read Luther's small catechism. Look it up, its short, its ment to teach children the basics of the Christian faith based on scripture.

None of these things add a bit to scripture, its all based on scripture.

Do some reading as to what we actually belive give me specific issues you have with the Church. Based on my reading of scripture, I've come to the conclusion that I'm in agreement with the Lutheran church on its understanding of scripture. And yes I belive I'm 100% right, because its foolish to belive that you are wrong about something. Because if you belive you are wrong about something then you don't actually belive it at all.

I have not in this thread tried to convince anyone of becomming a Lutheran. What you are offended by is the fact that as a Lutheran I am willing to say "I am right", "The doctrines we teach are biblically true and other churchs are mistaken." In essence you are offended because I strongly and unreservingly say that I belive in what I claim to belive in.

Thats not common these days. Most protestant churchs only really care if you belive something about Jesus. Thats not so for me. There is more to the bible then just John 3:16. Just cause you belive in Jesus doesn't mean it doesn't matter if you are wrong on everything else.

Much could be learned if you go to http://www.lcms.org and click on FAQ's and or belief and practice.

 

[CoachR64]

Believing you are 100% right is fine... but it doesn't make you right. Muslims believe they are 100% right as well. So do JWs, Mormons, Hindu, etc...

I have no problem with people believing they are right. In fact, I have no real problem with differences in beliefs that do not pertain to salvation, as long as the person can back up that belief with scripture. (And that does not mean twisting and adding to promote ideas such as slavery)

I think far too often, we fall into the traps of worshiping doctrine and rules instead of worshiping Christ and Christ alone. For many people, doctrine and denomination become their god.

Coach

 

[overit]

Rituals like baptism and communion that Jesus specificially commanded?

Catechisms which explain the basics of the Christian faith for people to understand?

Guilty then.

Have you ever read Luther's small catechism. Look it up, its short, its ment to teach children the basics of the Christian faith based on scripture.

None of these things add a bit to scripture, its all based on scripture.

Do some reading as to what we actually belive give me specific issues you have with the Church. Based on my reading of scripture, I've come to the conclusion that I'm in agreement with the Lutheran church on its understanding of scripture. And yes I belive I'm 100% right, because its foolish to belive that you are wrong about something. Because if you belive you are wrong about something then you don't actually belive it at all.

We don't NEED cathecism to EXPLAIN the Bible to us....being "based" on Scripture can be misleading-you have to know that no MORTAL man know 100pct truth when it comes to Scripture or God...that's actually impossible. There are things we do not know, and cannot comprehend...in fact to hold my views as 100pct truth makes me arrogant and prideful. I believe what I believe and I don't doubt it...but I also am a "gray" person and I am humble enough to know that I may believe this way but God's truth and the Bible's truth could be quite different to what I believe.
As for baptism-I ask again, since the NEW Testament speaks of adult baptism....how does "cathecism" explain this differently? The rituals accompanying communion that the church does also are a very far call from communion in the Bible and how/when/whom were partaking.....there were no "requirements" to stick to doctrines, etc..

I don't know Luth, I don't expect you to agree but from my views there ARE added rules/laws/rituals/ceremonies/instructions that are ENTIRELY man made and not EVER described in Scripture-maybe they are explained in cathetism to suit their beliefs...but some of the rituals explained do NOT line up. To claim they do and then say that it's the truth 100pct is misguided at least.

I rely on one thing only-Scripture-and God's revelation of it's meaning to me...not on a book created by a mortal man w/certain beliefs/opinions on his approach to Christianity.

 

[overit]

Believing you are 100% right is fine... but it doesn't make you right. Muslims believe they are 100% right as well. So do JWs, Mormons, Hindu, etc...

I have no problem with people believing they are right. In fact, I have no real problem with differences in beliefs that do not pertain to salvation, as long as the person can back up that belief with scripture. (And that does not mean twisting and adding to promote ideas such as slavery)

I think far too often, we fall into the traps of worshiping doctrine and rules instead of worshiping Christ and Christ alone. For many people, doctrine and denomination become their god.

Coach

 

[Mikeb85]

I have no problem with people believing they are right. In fact, I have no real problem with differences in beliefs that do not pertain to salvation, as long as the person can back up that belief with scripture. (And that does not mean twisting and adding to promote ideas such as slavery)

I think far too often, we fall into the traps of worshiping doctrine and rules instead of worshiping Christ and Christ alone. For many people, doctrine and denomination become their god.

Considering how fractured Christianity is, and how much of a joke 'modern Christianity' has become, in part due to erroneous doctrines, I'd say that stuff like doctrine DOES matter.

Not to mention soul-destroying heresies such as Gnosticism, Arianism, etc... I wonder if the Church would have survived so long if we just said those differences don't matter.

 

[CoachR64]

They don't matter. I know churches that think it's wrong to play instruments in worship because it is not present in the new testament. Some churches think any kind of dancing is wrong. Some claim that any alcohol consumption is wrong because it ruins the witness. Some churches don't consume caffeinated beverages.

Do those things really matter when it comes to loving others and serving Christ?

Most doctrine is a man made attempt to get to God, filling life with rules. Christianity has survived because of the Holy Spirit and the Bible. These other things haven't necessarily helped it survive, and in fact, have often done more damage than good.

Coach

 

[Blank123]

i'm just kinda confused, Coach. are you saying that doctrines that pervert the gospel such as gnosticism and arianism are fine and shouldn't bother Christians? This isn't an accusation, just looking for clarification.

 

[Mikeb85]

They don't matter. I know churches that think it's wrong to play instruments in worship because it is not present in the new testament. Some churches think any kind of dancing is wrong. Some claim that any alcohol consumption is wrong because it ruins the witness. Some churches don't consume caffeinated beverages.

Do those things really matter when it comes to loving others and serving Christ?

Those are pretty silly examples...

Most doctrine is a man made attempt to get to God, filling life with rules. Christianity has survived because of the Holy Spirit and the Bible. These other things haven't necessarily helped it survive, and in fact, have often done more damage than good.

Coach

So do you think it doesn't matter whether or not someone believes Christ is God?

 

[Luther073082]

Believing you are 100% right is fine... but it doesn't make you right. Muslims believe they are 100% right as well. So do JWs, Mormons, Hindu, etc

I'm aware of that.

We don't NEED cathecism to EXPLAIN the Bible to us....

Oh so children are born just completly understanding the bible then? You don't need to teach your children faith at all. They will just GET IT. I see.

being "based" on Scripture can be misleading-you have to know that no MORTAL man know 100pct truth when it comes to Scripture or God...that's actually impossible.

Not with God's word

There are things we do not know, and cannot comprehend...in fact to hold my views as 100pct truth makes me arrogant and prideful. I believe what I believe and I don't doubt it...but I also am a "gray" person and I am humble enough to know that I may believe this way but God's truth and the Bible's truth could be quite different to what I believe.

It could be different from what I accept. So what? Does that mean I should ignore the call to stand up for true doctrine in the bible just cause its politically correct?

As for baptism-I ask again, since the NEW Testament speaks of adult baptism....how does "cathecism" explain this differently?

The small catechism can't be relied upon for defending the doctrine as children don't have the ability to comprehend complex theological issues. However here is the small catechism.

The Small Catechism - Book of Concord

The large catechism does better

The Large Catechism - Book of Concord

Defense of the augsburg confession

Defense of the Augsburg Confession - Book of Concord

The LCMS explains it here

http://www.lcms.org/graphics/assets/media/LCMS/wa_baptism.pdf

As for me I will just add that the bible never says adults are the only people to be baptised. In acts when one person converted to the faith, on at least 2 occasions their entire family was baptised. So to claim that the bible somehow only calls for adult baptism is questionable at best.

Now if we take out understandings of what baptism is and the the fact that the bible does not say if children where baptised or not then we are left with one option. The early church which did baptise babies. Thats not scripture I know, but if scripture is unclear the safest and most logical thing to do is to look to the early church that the apostles themselves led and see what they do.

The rituals accompanying communion that the church does also are a very far call from communion in the Bible and how/when/whom were partaking.....there were no "requirements" to stick to doctrines, etc..

Really?? Because Jesus only gave communion to his 12 diciples. If you look in Corienthians (I think chapter 11) it talks about receiving communion properly.

I don't know Luth, I don't expect you to agree but from my views there ARE added rules/laws/rituals/ceremonies/instructions that are ENTIRELY man made and not EVER described in Scripture-maybe they are explained in cathetism to suit their beliefs...but some of the rituals explained do NOT line up. To claim they do and then say that it's the truth 100pct is misguided at least.

You havn't even read the catechism its clear so how do you know? I would certainly like to know what rituals you are talking about? You keep talking about these rituals but you don't ever say which ones.

I rely on one thing only-Scripture-and God's revelation of it's meaning to me...not on a book created by a mortal man w/certain beliefs/opinions on his approach to Christianity.

I rely on scripture primarily and read the opinions and views of several men with several different views. Thats because those men have actually read scripture in its origional form. Greek and Hebrew. Do you not think I havn't reasearched the beliefs of people like John Calvin or Westly and their defenses for their beliefs?

John Calvin was a brilliant theologian. I think he's wrong but it doesn't take away from how intelligent he was.

Hon you havn't read scripture in its original form. I suggest you start reading material from those people who have.

 

[Luther073082]

Considering how fractured Christianity is, and how much of a joke 'modern Christianity' has become, in part due to erroneous doctrines, I'd say that stuff like doctrine DOES matter.

Amen, I'm far more worried about people who don't think it matters then the people that disagree with me.

 

[CoachR64]

No offense taken, tigress, I know you are just asking a question...

Like I stated earlier, I do believe their can be no compromise in the things that pertain to salvation. Salvation comes in Christ and Him crucified. Alone. Most other things are simply ways of worshiping Christ, and none of us do that the exact same way. I know some people that can sit and stare at mountains forever, praising God for the nature He created. Me, I'd get bored and go try and climb the mountain.

So, is someone believing Christ is going to come back and rapture His people before the tribulation or someone believing He is coming after, etc... stopping them from worshiping Christ and loving others?

I think the whole Christian thing is so much simpler than people make it out to be. God's word tells us that pure and faultless religion is to look after orphans and widows in their distress.... not doctrine, not man made rituals and rules, etc....

And yes, I think it is fine that Christians have a problem when people pervert and twist scripture to something mad made... That is not Biblical or scriptural. It is simply man made doctrine.

Coach

 

[CoachR64]

Mike, when did I say that? Go back and read everything I said before you start picking only the parts you want to see and attacking me for it. 'Things that do not pertain to salvation" is the key phrase.

You can call my examples silly all you want, but they are doctrinal beliefs that divide many churches today.

Coach

 

[Mikeb85]

Mike, when did I say that? Go back and read everything I said before you start picking only the parts you want to see and attacking me for it. 'Things that do not pertain to salvation" is the key phrase.

Well every single doctrine our Church (the Orthodox Church) has for example, deals with salvation.

You can call my examples silly all you want, but they are doctrinal beliefs that divide many churches today.

I'm not sure I'd call whether or not you should drink caffeinated beverages doctrine... I know churches split over things like that, which is beyond rediculous.

I'll use an example from one of your other posts:

Salvation comes in Christ and Him crucified. Alone

The Gnostics believed in salvation through Christ crucified since they believe that Christ 'showed' us the 'way' of attaining a higher consciousness by escaping the physical realm (which they believed was a prison for our souls created by the demiurge).

Now, would you believe that is a valid Christian belief? Or do we need doctrine to be able to further define exactly why Christ crucified actually matters?

 

[CoachR64]

We have everything we need already to show what Christ crucified is... God coming in flesh, dying on the cross, risen again in 3 days.

I don't need a man made doctrine to tell me that. It's right there in the Bible.

Coach