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How I came to embrace Preterism.

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Manifestation1*AD70, Jun 2, 2002.

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  1. adelpit346

    adelpit346 Member

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    i then looked up the beach and saw three men walking towards me coming down a road along the beach from up a higher rise like a small hill. All three had a soft glow about them even seeming to come from within them the same as the fingers over the girl's head. For some reason i did not think this was strange. They were of three different heights. A taller man in the middle and to his left a shorter man, and to his right the shortest man who was bald and about my height.
    "What do you think of the river?" the tall man asked. i could not believe it. i asked him if he was sure this was a river because i could not see the opposite river bank.
     
  2. adelpit346

    adelpit346 Member

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    "It is a river and if you listen closely, you can hear the little waves falling against the opposite shore, same as you hear them here before you." he said. i listened and COULD hear them. i asked how far across it was, because i had never heard of a river so wide anywhre on earth.
    "It is so wide, if you were to try and swim across it, you could swim forever and not reach the opposite bank, but it is there." he said. Thinking now of the headwaters of a river, i asked him where did it come from?
    "It flows from the Throne of God and if you were to walk back the way we came along this bank forever, you would not reach the Throne, but it is there.."
    he also said.
     
  3. adelpit346

    adelpit346 Member

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    i felt they were pulling my leg. i looked down the bank in the opposite direction and asked where does it go? "It flows and empties into a Great Gulf beyond, and if you were to walk this bank forever, you would not reach this Gulf, but it is there." he replied.
    i thought for a moment and then noticed as i looked down at the water, i saw it was the clearest
    i had ever see. i then noticed i could not see the bottom of the river...even right next to the bank. How deep it this river, i asked him. "If you were to fall in, you would sink forever and not reach the bottom, but it is there." he replied.
    "Look closer at the water." the man to his left said.
    i looked closely at the water and saw what looked like schools of needlefish. i was the told to look yet closer. As i looked closely, i realized these things that appeared like fish to me were thoughts, formulas, and sayings. One or two i felt i had heard of before, but the majority i could not recognize and the vastness of the amount of them was incrediable! As i looked even closer, the short man to the right of the tall man kicked me into the water.
     
  4. adelpit346

    adelpit346 Member

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    i began to sink. As i did, the thoughts flowed over and against me like ribbons from a tickertape machine, even like fish swimming in the water, they bumped up against me and then continued on down the river. i sank into the water deeper and deeper. i then had the feeling i could not breath. i began to get scared and started gasping. At that moment, the tall man reached into the water and picked me up: lifting me high over the river shaking me like a leaf in the wind and in an instant i was dry the same as before. i was sat down on the bank. He said "All things you need to know have now been given unto you." The man to his left said "Come with us." The four of us walked up the river bank along the road in the direction from which they had come. In a short time we came to a rise in the road as a small hill along the river and walked up this hill. i saw a great light shinning over the top of the hill like the sun rising in the morning over the curve of the earth.
     
  5. adelpit346

    adelpit346 Member

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    As we walked up into this light, a feeling of love washed over me. This love was far greater than even that a man and a woman, for this love continued on and on and grew stronger the closer you got to the source of the Light.
    i then without failing to remember who i was, felt all the cares, fears and rememberances of the world being lifted off my shoulders. i then knew nothing of my former life, but fully knew who i was. Then the Light revealed a great and shining city. i looked at this city and then knew this was the place for me.
    i started to walk off towards this city, but was stopped by the hand of the tall man on my right shoulder.
     
  6. adelpit346

    adelpit346 Member

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    "It is not yet time, there is smething you must first do" he said to me. i then felt myself moving back in the directon from where we had met. As i moved back that way, a voice from the middle of the river said " ALL THINGS ARE BUT AN IRRITATION UPON THE SOUL, BARE THEM." and then in the blink, i was back in my physical body.
     
  7. adelpit346

    adelpit346 Member

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    Another voice soft and sweet gave me to know by feeling i will stay with you and comfort you. i then was awake. i looked at my friend and asked him what had happened. He said i had passed out. i asked him for how long and he replied "For a few seconds." And i thought it was for hours.
    Now i saw Paul in Third Heaven and the nonsence of gw's analysis of The Holy Bible notwithstanding, Paul was the man that kicked me into the river. But how could Paul have written about me 1950 years ago? The LORD GOD JESUS CHRIST did to present to him a vision and he did not know it at the time but the vision was of things to come and Paul actually did go into Third Heaven in the spirit also and did to see this thing and Paul did not know he had gone there, for so great is the VISION of The Lord.amen
    And when i was taken there 1950 years later, i really was kicked into the river by the spirit and soul of Paul. amen
    i am nothing0 and given(even i did not ask for this) much to know by The Spriit of The Lord God.
    Jesus is The Lord1Praise The Lord1The Lord Jesus. amen
    Many men have come tearing down The Lord, but i came lifting Him up high over the imaginations of all men.
     
  8. MizDoulos

    MizDoulos <font color=6c2dc7><b>Justified by grace through f

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    I'm sure the members will find your posts interesting, but let's get back to the subject at hand and stay on topic.

    Thank you.
     
  9. nikolai_42

    nikolai_42 Active Member

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    ...and note what He says in comparing the shakings:

    "Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven."
    Hebrews 12:26

    While the shaking is DEFINITELY spiritual, it is twofold in its time - physical as well as spiritual. And what remains will be entirely of the Lord. No one who looks at the world today can say that we have the remains of what was shaken (but withstood the shaking). There is much evil, and in fact the heart of man is growing colder on the whole. The shaking is yet to come in fulness. It has happened in times past, but the final shaking - the last great sifting will be greater than all previous. This ONCE MORE shaking must be to the end of the subduing of all that is not under Christ's authority. This has not happened.

    And again...we still have death, sorrow, tears, pain, curse, the sea...

    Again, I reference 2 Peter 3 where men count slackness different from God. And the assertion that the apostles knew when Christ would return is ludicrous because even Jesus Himself didn't know that. It is not for us to know the times or the seasons that the Father has placed in His own hands.

    Nothing has been violated in scripture - and Christ must yet return.

    But the issue is not the removal merely of a covenant, but the manifestation of the Kingdom in fullness. That is what Christ returns for. To visit punishment on those who will not obey Him and to put down all authority that is not yet under Him. This He will do.

    Death...sorrow...tears...pain...the curse...the sea...

    AMEN! And it is continually expanding in influence and His government is expanding to the uttermost. But we see Jesus...and all power and authority is put under Him PROPHETICALLY. It has been accomplished (It IS finished) but it has not been outworked yet:

    " Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him."
    Hebrews 2:8

    Including sorrow, tears, pain, the curse...death...which is the LAST enemy to be destroyed. It has been subdued but is not yet destroyed. And what does He do at His return? He destroys HIS ENEMIES with the brightness of His coming. And He has not yet come, for death still has sway.

    Yes, it was. And the old HAS passed away. The new has replaced it. But only those things that are in the heart and are to be told to the world. The harvest has not yet come. The chaff has not yet been burnt up. We await His coming.

     
  10. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Hey Nik,
    A couple of questions:

    You said Christ does not have authority over all the earth today.
    I wounder if you could cite a few specific examples of persons or things on earth that currently have authority ABOVE Christ.
    Thanx.

    You also agreed the old covenant has passed away.
    Could you tell us specifically when you believe that was accomplished?

    Thanx

    oh, one more.....
    Will we be allowed to shed "tears of Joy" in the New H&E? or will those be banned as well?
    Thanx
     
  11. nikolai_42

    nikolai_42 Active Member

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    There is a difference between authority ABOVE Christ and Christ having authority over something. All things are under Him, but not all authority has yet been put down. That subduing is the putting down of authority, not just having authority over it. Jesus always had authority over the devils, but, as they reminded Him when He cast them out of one individual, it wasn't their time. The time has not come for that yet. That is only when ALL things are restored.

    An example? Death.

    Absolutely. It was accomplished on the cross. It was nailed to the cross. One of the reasons (IMO) that Christ said "It is finished".

    It's not a matter of banning. It's a matter of those things which cause pain, sorrow, suffering and loss (including death and the curse) simply not existing anymore. They just won't be around to even cause tears or sorrow. Tears of joy? I have no idea. Why do we cry when we are joyful?
     
  12. GW

    GW Veteran

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    NIKOLAI:
    and note what He says in comparing the shakings:

    "Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven."
    Hebrews 12:26

    While the shaking is DEFINITELY spiritual, it is twofold in its time - physical as well as spiritual. And what remains will be entirely of the Lord. No one who looks at the world today can say that we have the remains of what was shaken (but withstood the shaking).


    GW:
    He "shook the earth" the first time, and the result was the establishment of the Mosaic world. God "shook again, earth and heaven, and the result was the establishment of the New Covenant world. That's the comparison being made in Hebrews 12, and in fact all through Hebrews. The Old Covenant world was then going away and being replaced by the New.





    NIKOLAI:
    There is much evil, and in fact the heart of man is growing colder on the whole.

    GW:
    The past 2,000 years of Christianization has brought transformation and progress in revolutionary ways. Remember, 2000 years ago, only one tiny country the size of Ohio had any salvation and knowledge of God -- and the rest of humanity was in hopeless darkness and entirely cut off from God. Now, all this has changed, and the results have been historic globally.


    NIKOLAI:
    The subduing of all that is not under Christ's authority. This has not happened.

    GW:
    It has. It was something that took place in their generation (Matt 24:34), wherein Christ took away the kingdom from his enemies and gave it to the Church forever. That took place at AD 70. As Jesus said to his enemies:

    Matthew 21:43
    Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof




    NIKOLAI:
    Again, I reference 2 Peter 3 where men count slackness different from God.


    GW:
    You are saying 2000 years is not "slackness"? It is slackness.

    Paul promised the first-century Christians: "in a very very short while, he who is coming will come and will not tarry."

    2,000 years is a "very very LONG while," and is an enormous time to tarry. Paul was speaking of the coming of Christ at AD 70. THe book of Hebrews was anticipating the end of the Old Covenant, which was "about to vanish" at the time the book was written (Heb 8:13/10:9). The kingdom they were at that time "receiving" (Heb 12:28-29), was the one Jesus was taking away from the apostate Jews and giving to the Church:

    Matthew 21:43
    Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof




    NIKOLAI:
    And the assertion that the apostles knew when Christ would return is ludicrous because even Jesus Himself didn't know that. It is not for us to know the times or the seasons that the Father has placed in His own hands.

    GW:
    They knew it was for their generation, and Jesus said his apostles would correctly recognize when it was near at the door. Jesus, speaking to the apostles, promised them, saying:

    --COMPARE THIS--

    Matthew 24:33-34
    So likewise you, when you shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. (spoken at about 30AD)


    --TO THIS--

    James 5:8-9
    establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is near... behold, the judge is standing at the door. (spoken just three decades later at about 61 AD)


    So, we see how the apostle James interpreted Matthew 24:33. James announced its fulfillment during his later ministry in the first century. James did not believe in a 2,000 year delay/tarry, and could not err. The time of Matthew 24:33's fulfillment was in James' lifetime.



    NIKOLAI:
    But the issue is not the removal merely of a covenant, but the manifestation of the Kingdom in fullness.

    GW:
    Jesus, speaking to his enemies, said:

    Matthew 21:43
    Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof
    (AD 70)





    NIKOLAI:
    AMEN! And it is continually expanding in influence and His government is expanding to the uttermost.

    GW:
    Nikolai, the point in carefully comparing Heb 12:27 to Heb 10:9, Heb 8:13 and 2 Cor 3:6-8,11 was to show precisely what "vanished away" and what afterwards "remained." The parallel passages show plainly that what went away was the Old Covenant world and what remained was the New Covenant world.




    NIKOLAI:
    But we see Jesus...and all power and authority is put under Him PROPHETICALLY. It has been accomplished (It IS finished) but it has not been outworked yet:

    " Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him." Hebrews 2:8


    GW:
    That's because Hebrews was written 5-7 years before it happened. Jesus told his enemies he was going to take the kingdom from them and the faithful bride got it:

    Matthew 21:43
    Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof
    (speaking of AD 70)

    Hebrews 8:13
    In that he saith, A new [covenant], he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is about to vanish away.
    (speaking of AD 70)
     
  13. nikolai_42

    nikolai_42 Active Member

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    I MIGHT accept that as the extent of things except that changes occurred on all levels of existence with the flood. The ungodly were wiped out, but you will also note that there were physical changes. The lifespan of man decreased markedly (apparently, there are increased CO2 levels since that time - could be a scientific reason why). Fermentation was all of a sudden a possibility (remember the RIGHTEOUS Noah lying exposed in his tent of drunkenness? There was no reason for him to be drunk and if he was really righteous, would he intentionally get drunk? So we are left to believe that the flood introduced fermentation). And the promise of God not to ever again destroy the earth by flood comes in the form of a rainbow. This may or may not be true, but it seems to me that the rainbow is a new sign to mankind. It may not have existed before the flood. So there is evidence that even the mechanics of the atmosphere changed. All these point to changes that any individual can point to. And the fact remains that the destruction was cataclysmic - not simply spiritual. If we were to look only for a spiritual change, then we would have to look more to Christ's crucifixion than to any other event. For it was there that it was 'finished'. The old covenant was nailed to the cross. 70 AD may have been the demolition of the temple, but 'heaven and earth' have not been destroyed. That is what Peter clearly talks about. It requires stretching to say there is no physical cataclysm there.

    I admit there were many incredible things that happened in the days after Christ ascended, but His return is going to have no question attached to it. So we will KNOW that He returns without question. If someone says "There He is" we know they are not telling the truth because His coming is going to be evident. And then He will take vengeance on them that know not God.

    And the rest of the world is getting worse. That's why Peter talked about God's longsuffering and forbearance in destroying the world - that all might come to repentance. ALL.

    And we still have death, decay, sorrow, corruption, the curse etc....

    Death has not been destroyed. THAT is the indicator that the Kingdom truly has come in all aspects and meanings of the word.

    As Peter said: AS MEN COUNT SLACKNESS. It is not slackness. That's exactly what Peter was addressing. God could wait another 1000 years and still fulfill it all perfectly.

    HAve you read how CHRIST reckons a generation?

    What vanished in the flood? Compare that with the fire that will destroy the heavens and the earth. How much clearer can one be when one says the heavens and the earth will be destroyed? That doesn't need interpretation but people seem to ignore that or change the meaning. Why? The scripture doesn't try to reinterpret 'heavens and earth', so why should we? It's true what you say about the spiritual aspect, but that does not diminish the physical destruction that will attend the coming of Christ.

     
  14. adelpit346

    adelpit346 Member

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    Heaven, and that is Third Heaven is as mush Physical as the water in the rivers and the fish therein.
    But the difference is this. On this earth all is natural, and in Heaven it is Spiritual.
    But after the second resurrection, all will be Spiritually Physical.
    i am nothing0
    Jesus is The Lord1Praise The Lord1The Lord Jesus. amen
     
  15. adelpit346

    adelpit346 Member

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    Death has already been conquered on earth.
    All you have to do is keep all the sayings of JESUS and He and His Father will come to meet you and then you will be Translated. amen
    if is not His fault no gentile has taken advantage of the GOOD offer. amen
    i am nothing0
    Jesus is The Lord1Praise The Lord1The Lord Jesus. amen
     
  16. Phoenix

    Phoenix Senior Member

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    Does Christ indicate that a generation is different from the rest of the Bible ? 40 years ?

    Quoting from Gw's post:



    And destruction came upon Jerusalem a generation later in 70AD .. 40 years.
     
  17. nikolai_42

    nikolai_42 Active Member

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    The destruction of Jerusalem is but one part of the things that must come to pass.

    Jesus spoke of signs and discerning the times that way. Not of reckoning years. And He even defined the generation:

    " But whereunto shall I liken this generation? It is like unto children sitting in the markets, and calling unto their fellows,
    And saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned unto you, and ye have not lamented.
    For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil.
    The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children."
    Matthew 11:16-19

    So I see Him talking of times and seasons in terms of what people are like, not of number of years. And Peter does the same thing. "In the last days...men will be lovers of pleasure more than lovers of God..." etc...
    The end times are not determined chronologically, but spiritually.

    That is another thing with full preterism that I can't accept. On the one hand, all the things are interpreted in a more spiritual sense, but when it comes to timing it, things are decidedly earthly. A thousand years is like a day to the Lord (and vice versa). So imagine how long an entire (earthly reckoned) generation would be!
     
  18. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
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    NIKOLAI:
    I MIGHT accept that as the extent of things except that changes occurred on all levels of existence with the flood.

    GW:
    Hebrews 12:18-28 tells precisely the extent of things. God's establishment of the Mosaic World was a "shaking of the earth," and his establishment of the New Covenant Kingdom was a "shaking earth and heaven." Hebrews teaches that God had to "remove the first covenant to establish the second" (Heb 10:9), and that removal of the first was "about to happen" (Heb 8:13) at the time Hebrews was written (AD 64-66). He who was coming in a very very short while came and did not delay (Heb 10:37). The Mosaic World went up in smoke just about five years later- the "Kingdom was taken from Christ's enemies and given to a new nation" (Matt 21:43).


    NIKOLAI:
    The ungodly were wiped out, but you will also note that there were physical changes.

    GW:
    There are similarities in God's varied judgments down the ages, but there is not IDENTITY in any one-to-one fashion. The Day of Christ is compared to many prior judgments of God (i.e., judgment of Sodom, Noah's world, the fallen angels, the rebellion in the wilderness with Moses), but it is not identical to any of them.


    NIKOLAI:
    And the promise of God not to ever again destroy the earth by flood comes in the form of a rainbow.

    GW:
    I would think that God's promise in Genesis never to hurt the land again should be very instructive to us in how we think of the "old/new heavens earth" concept. God promised to never take out vengeance on the earth again, and the the bible makes it abundantly clear that our physical planets and outer space are NOT going to be destroyed ever (Ecc 1:4; Ps 78:69; 89:36-37; 104:5; 148:4-6; Isa 45:17; Eph 3:21), and there will be no end to perpetual generations of humans (Ps 145:13; Lk 1:33; Dan 4:3,34; Dan 7:14,18,27). But we must be sure to recognize that when the prophets spoke of catastrophic changes in empires or governments, they always described those historic changes as the collapse of heavens and earth:

    "Heavens and Earth" Destructions in Old Testament Times
    *2 Sam 22:1,7-16 = the end of Saul's Kingdom
    *Judges 5:4-5 = the Exodus
    *Micah 1:1-9 = the 8th cent. BC judgment upon Jerusalem/Samaria by Assyrians
    *Habakuk 3:3-15 = the Exodus and conquest of Caanan
    *Ezekiel 32:2-11 = Nebuchadnezzar's conquest of Egypt
    *Haggai 2:6-9/21-23 = God's judgment against the Persians and promotion of Zerubabel
    *Nahum 1:1-8 = God's judgment on Nineveh
    *Zephaniah 1:1-7 = God's judgment on 6th century BC Jerusalem


    So, Nikolai, since it is abundantly clear that the prophets spoke of the revolutions in covenants and empires as various collapses of the earth and the heavens, we must recognize this same language when it is utilized by the prophets of the New Covenant. The passing of heavens and earth, as was discussed by the NT prophets, spoke of the impending dissolution of the Mosaic civilization and the establishment of the eternal Christic civilization. That is the bible's clear teaching, and Hebrews 12 bears that out, and so does 2 Peter 3.





    NIKOLAI:
    And the rest of the world is getting worse.

    GW:
    Just the opposite is happening. Because the gospel is no longer restricted to geographic Israel, the good things of the covenant with God are spreading around the world everywhere. "Of the increase of His government there is no end" (Isa 9:6-7).




    NIKOLAI:
    As Peter said: AS MEN COUNT SLACKNESS. It is not slackness. That's exactly what Peter was addressing. God could wait another 1000 years and still fulfill it all perfectly.

    GW:
    You are creating an unusual interpretation here. Peter did not think what you are saying. Peter says:

    1 Peter 4:7,17
    The end of all things is near... it is time for judgment to begin with the household of God; and...it begins with us first...



    NIKOLAI:
    HAve you read how CHRIST reckons a generation?

    GW:
    Yes. The phrase "this generation" is cited about 20 times in the New Testament. In every single case, it means the generation of contemporaries to whom Jesus is speaking. In not one case does "this generation" mean "some future generation."



    NIKOLAI:
    What vanished in the flood? Compare that with the fire that will destroy the heavens and the earth. How much clearer can one be when one says the heavens and the earth will be destroyed? That doesn't need interpretation but people seem to ignore that or change the meaning. Why? The scripture doesn't try to reinterpret 'heavens and earth', so why should we?

    GW:
    "Heavens and Earth" Destructions in Old Testament Times
    *2 Sam 22:1,7-16 = the end of Saul's Kingdom
    *Judges 5:4-5 = the Exodus
    *Micah 1:1-9 = the 8th cent. BC judgment upon Jerusalem/Samaria by Assyrians
    *Habakuk 3:3-15 = the Exodus and conquest of Caanan
    *Ezekiel 32:2-11 = Nebuchadnezzar's conquest of Egypt
    *Haggai 2:6-9/21-23 = God's judgment against the Persians and promotion of Zerubabel
    *Nahum 1:1-8 = God's judgment on Nineveh
    *Zephaniah 1:1-7 = God's judgment on 6th century BC Jerusalem


    Those passages show plainly how the prophets spoke about various historic judgments of the Old Testament era. All those judgments were described as the dissolution of the earth and the heavens and such. So it is also the case in the NT scriptures -- they speak of the end of the Mosaic Covenant World and the establishment of the Christic Covenant World.
     
  19. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Preterists are just following the set biblical precident.

    As GW pointed out, The apocalyptic language of the "destruction of heavens and earth" is used over and over and over as figurative of comotions in governments and peoples, while time limits place by God on a prophesy's fulfillment are ALWAYS literal, given to be understood by how time relates to man, not God.

    It's futurists who ignore this fact and reverse this biblical precident.
     
  20. frost

    frost Member

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    Nikolai has a good point here. Sure, the gospel is spreading into more parts of the world but society in the moral sense seems to be getting worse. Just look at how liberalism and anti-christian beliefs have changed this country. The crime rate going up, church attendance going down, no more prayer in school, gay marriages, the Supreme Court deciding whether or not God should be in the Pledge of Allegience, etc, etc. Surely we can agree on this downward trend and it doesn't speak kindly for the "new heavens and earth."
     
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