Tawhano,
I really appreciate your attitude here. It is a 'breath of fresh air', as the saying goes.
Thank you for clarifying your view a little for me. It helps me to understand you better.
There are a couple of things that you stated that I would like to address and please realize that I am not coming against you. This is not personal. You stated some things that would seem to happen at the 'end' but I missed what you thought the 'end' was. You referred to a 'spiritual life' with Jesus when he comes for his bride and that people would be changed into the spiritual at the coming and it was then that people would actually be saved and you seem to believe this would happen at the 'end', but, again, what is the 'end'?
Some other things to consider (and some of these are recent thoughts for me): First, in Matt 10.22, Jesus was referring to the 12 (specifically -- and to the church of the first century in general) when he spoke those words. The 'salvation' would not have been understood as 'life with god' or 'eternal life' but the people would be 'saved' from the persecution he was talking about (see verses 16ff). And this did happen to the early church (it could be seen in the book of Acts, for example). The early Christians were persecuted by the Jews (primarily). Their 'salvation' came when, in 70CE, the Romans defeated the Jews. During the 3.5 years of the war (yes, 3.5 years), the 'attention' was moved from the Christians and focused on the Romans. The Christians were 'saved' during that time and 'finally' at the fall of the Temple.
Second, the 'spiritual' nature of the 'resurrection': In the ancient world, the pagans (and this includes all other religions, not just those who practice paganism) as well as the Jews didnt really have much of a view of life after death. Who can praise you from the grave, the Psalmist wrote. (Incidentally, this is why the Sadducees did not believe in resurrection or an after life. The Torah didnt teach it. Or so they thought. See Jesus response to some of them in Matthew 22.23-33.)
It wasnt until later that both pagans and Jews started to view some kind of life after death. The pagans fiddled with the idea of immortality. That is, some type of life existed after death, but to what extent, no one was certain. We see this is the writings of Homer, for example, where Odysseus went to the place of the dead and spoke with the souls (psyche) of the departed. The other thing that is interesting during this period is that the pagan belief was not founded on actual people, but on myth and legend. Based on these ideas, some pagans believed that (at least some) people had an immortal part that existed before time and had somehow become trapped in a physical body in the now. The body, therefore, was seen as a prison from which to escape. At death, this immortal part was released from the prison and returned to the stars from whence it came.
The Jews, however, didnt believe this. The body was part of the good creation of the creator god, their covenant god, YHWY. They believed that those people who were loyal to YHWH would continue to live after death. But, like the pagans, they werent certain as to what type of life this would be. It wasnt until later texts (Daniel, Isaiah, Ezekiel, etc.) that the idea of resurrection came into fruition. Resurrection meant the re-embodiment of the soul. The pagans naturally scoffed at such an idea. Who would want to come back to this place? The pagans were trying to leave the prison of the body and return to the universe. However, the Jewish belief became even more solidified with a couple of factors: The Septuagint and the Maccabees. The Septuagint (written between the third and first century BCE) translated the more ambiguous life after death passages into life after life after death (resurrection) passages. The Maccabees were tortured and killed for their allegiance to Israels covenant god, YHWY, and a common thread in their testimonies was that if they were not vindicated in this life, they would be resurrected in gods new creation. This 'resurrected life' was based on Israel's covenant god and his love for his good creation.
The metaphorical view of resurrection (based primarly on Ezekiel 37) was based on the actual promised resurrection. In that passage, YHWH used the imagery of resurrection to show that Israel would be returned to their land. However, when the Jews were allowed to return to Palestine, most viewed themselves as still being in exile. They were under Roman rule. If gods people were not restored and vidicated in this creation, their god would restore and vidicate them in his new creation with resurrection. By the time of Jesus and the apostles, most Jews of this time understood resurrection to mean what it had always primarily meant a re-embodiment in gods new creation. It never meant anything else.
It is at this point where we find Jesus. One of the big things (!) that happened was his resurrection. His literal re-embodiment not at the end of the age, but during it! The early Christians took the metaphorical sense of second-temple Judaism differently. Instead of a return from national exile (Ezekiel 37), it meant a return to fellowship with god a return from spiritual/covenantal exile. But, they also believed in the literal interpretation of resurrection as well. They witnessed it (some of them) in the actual resurrection of Jesus. The incredible thing was that it didnt happen at the end of the age, like they all expected, but during it! Gods new creation started on the first Easter morning. That moment was seen, by the early Christians, as god implementing his new creation now. Theyre view of resurrection was exactly what most of their fellow Jews believed. It had a metaphorical meaning and a literal one. They just changed the identifier from nationalism to Jesus. If god had really forgiven Israel through the work of Jesus, then god had forgiven the Gentiles as well. Thus leading to the preaching to them. The early Christians began to see that the promised new creation started and it was up to them to implement it in their time.
I really appreciate your attitude here. It is a 'breath of fresh air', as the saying goes.
Thank you for clarifying your view a little for me. It helps me to understand you better.
There are a couple of things that you stated that I would like to address and please realize that I am not coming against you. This is not personal. You stated some things that would seem to happen at the 'end' but I missed what you thought the 'end' was. You referred to a 'spiritual life' with Jesus when he comes for his bride and that people would be changed into the spiritual at the coming and it was then that people would actually be saved and you seem to believe this would happen at the 'end', but, again, what is the 'end'?
Some other things to consider (and some of these are recent thoughts for me): First, in Matt 10.22, Jesus was referring to the 12 (specifically -- and to the church of the first century in general) when he spoke those words. The 'salvation' would not have been understood as 'life with god' or 'eternal life' but the people would be 'saved' from the persecution he was talking about (see verses 16ff). And this did happen to the early church (it could be seen in the book of Acts, for example). The early Christians were persecuted by the Jews (primarily). Their 'salvation' came when, in 70CE, the Romans defeated the Jews. During the 3.5 years of the war (yes, 3.5 years), the 'attention' was moved from the Christians and focused on the Romans. The Christians were 'saved' during that time and 'finally' at the fall of the Temple.
Second, the 'spiritual' nature of the 'resurrection': In the ancient world, the pagans (and this includes all other religions, not just those who practice paganism) as well as the Jews didnt really have much of a view of life after death. Who can praise you from the grave, the Psalmist wrote. (Incidentally, this is why the Sadducees did not believe in resurrection or an after life. The Torah didnt teach it. Or so they thought. See Jesus response to some of them in Matthew 22.23-33.)
It wasnt until later that both pagans and Jews started to view some kind of life after death. The pagans fiddled with the idea of immortality. That is, some type of life existed after death, but to what extent, no one was certain. We see this is the writings of Homer, for example, where Odysseus went to the place of the dead and spoke with the souls (psyche) of the departed. The other thing that is interesting during this period is that the pagan belief was not founded on actual people, but on myth and legend. Based on these ideas, some pagans believed that (at least some) people had an immortal part that existed before time and had somehow become trapped in a physical body in the now. The body, therefore, was seen as a prison from which to escape. At death, this immortal part was released from the prison and returned to the stars from whence it came.
The Jews, however, didnt believe this. The body was part of the good creation of the creator god, their covenant god, YHWY. They believed that those people who were loyal to YHWH would continue to live after death. But, like the pagans, they werent certain as to what type of life this would be. It wasnt until later texts (Daniel, Isaiah, Ezekiel, etc.) that the idea of resurrection came into fruition. Resurrection meant the re-embodiment of the soul. The pagans naturally scoffed at such an idea. Who would want to come back to this place? The pagans were trying to leave the prison of the body and return to the universe. However, the Jewish belief became even more solidified with a couple of factors: The Septuagint and the Maccabees. The Septuagint (written between the third and first century BCE) translated the more ambiguous life after death passages into life after life after death (resurrection) passages. The Maccabees were tortured and killed for their allegiance to Israels covenant god, YHWY, and a common thread in their testimonies was that if they were not vindicated in this life, they would be resurrected in gods new creation. This 'resurrected life' was based on Israel's covenant god and his love for his good creation.
The metaphorical view of resurrection (based primarly on Ezekiel 37) was based on the actual promised resurrection. In that passage, YHWH used the imagery of resurrection to show that Israel would be returned to their land. However, when the Jews were allowed to return to Palestine, most viewed themselves as still being in exile. They were under Roman rule. If gods people were not restored and vidicated in this creation, their god would restore and vidicate them in his new creation with resurrection. By the time of Jesus and the apostles, most Jews of this time understood resurrection to mean what it had always primarily meant a re-embodiment in gods new creation. It never meant anything else.
It is at this point where we find Jesus. One of the big things (!) that happened was his resurrection. His literal re-embodiment not at the end of the age, but during it! The early Christians took the metaphorical sense of second-temple Judaism differently. Instead of a return from national exile (Ezekiel 37), it meant a return to fellowship with god a return from spiritual/covenantal exile. But, they also believed in the literal interpretation of resurrection as well. They witnessed it (some of them) in the actual resurrection of Jesus. The incredible thing was that it didnt happen at the end of the age, like they all expected, but during it! Gods new creation started on the first Easter morning. That moment was seen, by the early Christians, as god implementing his new creation now. Theyre view of resurrection was exactly what most of their fellow Jews believed. It had a metaphorical meaning and a literal one. They just changed the identifier from nationalism to Jesus. If god had really forgiven Israel through the work of Jesus, then god had forgiven the Gentiles as well. Thus leading to the preaching to them. The early Christians began to see that the promised new creation started and it was up to them to implement it in their time.
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