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How I became a Calvinist
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He's saying that "not everyone who is descended from Israel are children-of-the-promise"; by giving the example of "Jacob and Esau", he's communicating that "both WERE descendants but one was NOT a child-of-God".
Context says "not all descendants are children, but those of the promise are REGARDED as descendants."
The argument presented in verses 19-23 is a conversation with someone who would ANSWER BACK --- meaning, "WE (Jews) are the promised people; how could God save the Gentiles?"
Paul says, "who are you to question God? He will have mercy on whom HE has mercy (also-Gentiles if He CHOOSES); you are but a vessel --- God molds from one lump of clay a vessel for honor, and a vessel for common-use; but there are vessels of wrath prepared for destruction that He ENDURES for now. He endures them so that He might make known the riches of His glory on vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, even us, whom He also called, not ONLY Jews but ALSO GENTILES."
This is the intent I see in the passage; how do you see "predestined-election"?
It is "also-Gentiles, don't you-Jews question God if He wants to save OTHERS".
Context says "not all descendants are children, but those of the promise are REGARDED as descendants."
The argument presented in verses 19-23 is a conversation with someone who would ANSWER BACK --- meaning, "WE (Jews) are the promised people; how could God save the Gentiles?"
Paul says, "who are you to question God? He will have mercy on whom HE has mercy (also-Gentiles if He CHOOSES); you are but a vessel --- God molds from one lump of clay a vessel for honor, and a vessel for common-use; but there are vessels of wrath prepared for destruction that He ENDURES for now. He endures them so that He might make known the riches of His glory on vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, even us, whom He also called, not ONLY Jews but ALSO GENTILES."
This is the intent I see in the passage; how do you see "predestined-election"?
It is "also-Gentiles, don't you-Jews question God if He wants to save OTHERS".
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LukeBritt
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6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, 7 and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but Through Isaac shall your offspring be named. 8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.
In v. 6 Paul says that not all people who are of Israel are of Israel, meaning that not all Jews are spiritual Jews. Ben, as you are trying so hard for me to point out, Gentiles are also a part of the promise.
Then Paul uses a story of Rebecca's two sons to show God's purpose of election. They are of the same race, so he can't be talking about two races, can he? He chose one because of his purpose of election according to his call. These are salvific words he is using here, not racial...
In v. 6 Paul says that not all people who are of Israel are of Israel, meaning that not all Jews are spiritual Jews. Ben, as you are trying so hard for me to point out, Gentiles are also a part of the promise.
Then Paul uses a story of Rebecca's two sons to show God's purpose of election. They are of the same race, so he can't be talking about two races, can he? He chose one because of his purpose of election according to his call. These are salvific words he is using here, not racial...
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Yup.
The circumstances of Jacob and Esau were well-known. Esau did not follow God, and sold his birthright for a bowl of beans.
Jacob was a follower of God (though weak at times, he shoulda trusted God to take care of it).
It seems un-credible to say "Esau acted as he did because God CONDEMNED (unelected) him, while Jacob was predestined and consequently acted righteously." It seems more reflective of Rom8, which says "Those whom God foreknew, He also predestined to be Christlike --- that Christ might be the firstborn of many."
Focus on "God's purpose ...because of Him who calls". The New Covenant purose is that "all who see Jesus and believe may have eternal life". All are called, few (those who answer the invitation) are chosen.
Scripture does not assert "a different call between those who are SAVED, and those who are NOT". Rom2 says clearly and succinctly, "those who by doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality receive eternal life; but those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth but obey unrighteousness, (Hell)." Nothing about "predestined-attitude", but "choice".
Heb6:7-8 says that "the fields are tilled the SAME; the one that yeilds useful fruit is blessed, but the one that yields thorns is cursed (and burned)."
And because we cannot wrest verses from context, please tell me (if Rm9:6-24 is asserting "predestination") --- what is the message in verses 30-32? This then denies the idea that "Esau was PRE-HATED and Jacob was PRE-LOVED" (stating that everything else in Jacob's and Esau's lives was consequential to God's monergistic-election). Instead, there are those who did not become righteous BECAUSE they pursued it by works, rather than by faith.
Verses 30-32 are undeniably, 100% "volition", aren't they? Can we deny that by context "Esau-hated" reflects "pursued works", and "Jacob-loved" reflects "faith"?
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cygnusx1
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ben is completetly wrong on his assumptions that Romans 9 is about the Gentiles ........
the passage is dealing first and foremost with the real problem of The Jews!!
the individuals mentioned in the first few passages are all Jews!!
The first time a Gentile is named he is a REPROBATE! (Pharoah)
and as an aside , Paul states that this Election of INDIVIDUALS isn't just for Jews but for Gentiles as well !!!
Thus showing that those who say that Romans 9 is only speaking about Israel are also as wrong as ben.
Just go through the whole chapter verse by verse and see what Paul is saying , see if the whole arguement is based upon real problems that can only be answered by Divine Sovereignty and that Paul uses The Scriptures to show God's Rejection and hardening as well as God's Mercy and Love on whomever He Chooses.
the passage is dealing first and foremost with the real problem of The Jews!!
the individuals mentioned in the first few passages are all Jews!!
The first time a Gentile is named he is a REPROBATE! (Pharoah)
and as an aside , Paul states that this Election of INDIVIDUALS isn't just for Jews but for Gentiles as well !!!
Thus showing that those who say that Romans 9 is only speaking about Israel are also as wrong as ben.
Just go through the whole chapter verse by verse and see what Paul is saying , see if the whole arguement is based upon real problems that can only be answered by Divine Sovereignty and that Paul uses The Scriptures to show God's Rejection and hardening as well as God's Mercy and Love on whomever He Chooses.
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Because of the context, and all the rest of Scripture. Paul says "not just Jews only, but also Gentiles" --- you say "it's not 'also-Gentiles'." Paul says "The Israelites did not attain righteousness because they pursued it by works rather than by faith" --- you say "the passage shows predestination rather than "right or wrong pursuit". Your view holds "consequential belief", while Paul says "beCAUSE they chose works rather than faith, stumbled over Jesus". That's "causal-belief", rather than "consequential belief", isn't it?Luke said:
Proponents of "Predestined-Election" assert that "God hardens whom He chooses (thus he CHOOSES the reprobate for Hell), and has mercy on whom He has mercy (salvation is HIS choice, faith and love and responsibility have nothing to do with "making it to Heaven" --- only luck-of-the-Divine/Sovereign-draw)".
And that view completely ignores the last verse of the chapter: "I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling, a rock of offense; he who BELIEVES in Him will not be disappointed." He who believes, Luke; not "he whom God has predestined".
The situation in Rm9:30-33, about "fallen-Israelites", is also described in Heb3:16-18. Then in 4:11 WE are warned not to FALL by imitating their disobedience and unbelief. "Fail to enter rest", making a comparison to the Israelites' entering the Promised Land, means "Heaven" --- doesn't it?
Now look at the entire context of Heb3-4:
12 Take care BRETHREN, lest there be in any of you an evil unbelieving heart, that FALLS AWAY from the living God.
13 Encourage one another ...lest any one of you be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we have become PARTNERS ('metochos') in Christ, IF we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end.
15 It is said, 'Today if you hear His voice, do not harden YOUR hearts as when they provoked Me.
16 Who provoked them when they had heard? Those who came out of Egypt led by Moses!
17 With whom was He angry for 40 years? Those who sinned...
18 To whom did He swear that they should not enter His rest, but to those who were disobedient?
19 So we see that they were not able to enter BECAUSE of their unbelief
4:1 Therefore, let us fear lest, while a promise remains of entering His rest, any one of YOU should fall short!
4:2 We had the good news preached to us; but what THEY heard did not profit them, BECAUSE it was not united with faith in those who heard.
4:3 For we who have BELIEVED enter that rest...
4:6 Therefore it remains for some to enter it, and those... who failed BECAUSE OF DISOBEDIENCE...
4:7 ...do not harden your hearts!
4:11 Let us therefore be diligent TO enter that rest, lest anyone FALL by IMITATING their example of disobedience and unbelief!
The Israelites, by Rom9:32-33, stumbled over Jesus BECAUSE the rejected faith and pursued works. Identical reference in Heb3-4. Against "God monergistially/unilaterally hardens whom He chooses", the context plainly asserts, "do not harden your OWN hearts!" Against "God INSTALLS faith in whom He chooses", it plainly says "do not imitate their faithlessness!" Against "predestined-election", it plainly says "do not be hardened by your own deceitful sin* to falling away from the living God!"
How do you accommodate all of this into a "predestined-election" (monergistically) paradigm?
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* Sin can deceive believers to DEATH.
"God tempts no one; each is tempted when entice and carried away by his own lust; then lust conceived births sin, and sin brings DEATH ('thanatos', death-&-Hell); do not be deceived BELOVED BRETHREN." Jms1:14-16
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LukeBritt
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It is impossible to follow your posts, Ben. You presuppose things upon every Scripture reference and use eight gillion colors underlines and sizes that are unhelpful. Anyways, you say that it is that we believe, not that we were predestined...
Answer these core questions for me:
1. How do we believe?
2. Where does predestination fit in your theology?
3. What is election?
4. Is God sovereign?
Answer these core questions for me:
1. How do we believe?
2. Where does predestination fit in your theology?
3. What is election?
4. Is God sovereign?
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Ben,
How do you accommodate Genesis, Exodus, Deuteronomy, Samuel, Kings, Jonah, Psalms, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Acts, Romans, Ephesians, Galatians, 1 John, into a free will religion?
God chose Abraham, he had no choice.
God chose Israel, he/they had no choice.
God chose Moses, he had no choice, although he certainly didn't want to (as with Jonah)
God chose Saul as king.
God chose David as king and as the typology for the Christ.
God chose Jeremiah even though he didn't want to.
God chose Saul of Tarsus.
Christ chose his 12 apostles.
Who in the gospels did Christ command to follow him and they didn't? No one.
Why does Jesus speak in parables? Because otherwise they would hear, repent and be forgiven, but this was not what was prophesied.
Why did God choose Jacob, not Esau, because 'Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated', not because Jacob loved me and Esau did not.
ONLY predestination can fit into a whole bible framework.
How do you accommodate Genesis, Exodus, Deuteronomy, Samuel, Kings, Jonah, Psalms, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Acts, Romans, Ephesians, Galatians, 1 John, into a free will religion?
God chose Abraham, he had no choice.
God chose Israel, he/they had no choice.
God chose Moses, he had no choice, although he certainly didn't want to (as with Jonah)
God chose Saul as king.
God chose David as king and as the typology for the Christ.
God chose Jeremiah even though he didn't want to.
God chose Saul of Tarsus.
Christ chose his 12 apostles.
Who in the gospels did Christ command to follow him and they didn't? No one.
Why does Jesus speak in parables? Because otherwise they would hear, repent and be forgiven, but this was not what was prophesied.
Why did God choose Jacob, not Esau, because 'Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated', not because Jacob loved me and Esau did not.
ONLY predestination can fit into a whole bible framework.
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1. How do we believe?
Belief is the response from a heart that is confronted with Jesus' Gospel, which suffers conviction of sin; realization of wretchedness, that apart from Jesus all is lost --- both in this life and in the next.
Paul says "with the HEART man believes" in Rm10:10, and "you became obedient from the HEART" in Rm16:17. 2Tim3:15 clearly presents saving-faith consequenting from conviction from studying the Scriptures. Those in Acts2:37 were "smitten in conscience" (pierced to their hearts) --- convicted. Against Calvinists' assertion that "reprobate man CANNOT believe", Jesus says "all are called" (Jn12:32), and Paul says that "God is well-pleased to save those who believe THROUGH the foolishness of the message preaced". (If Calvinism was right, the message would necessarily have to CEASE being foolish before and so-that-they-COULD believe.) Belief CAUSES salvation, unbelief CAUSES condemnation. Jn3:18, 1Jn5:10.
2. Where does predestination fit in your theology?
My intent is to conform my theology to Scripture. There is no "predestination to salvation" in Scripture. There is "predestined of the FOREKNOWN, to Christlikeness". I correctly understand Eph1's "chosen in Him before the foundation of the world" to operate through our faith (2Thess2:13). And "He predestined us to adoption as sons ...through the kind intention of His will", to reflect how His kind-intentioned-will is defined: "This is the WILL of God, that ALL who see Him and believe ...be saved." Jn6:40
Thus the MECHANISM of salvation is predestined; Jesus-on-the-Cross was predestined; but "whosoever WILL take of the water of life freely" (Rev22:17) joins that predestined-adoption-to-all-who-will-believe".
3. What is election?
The "elect", are the "saved". Yet against Calvinists' contention that "God monergistically-elects" (based on HIS reasons), Scripture says "we must make certain of our calling and election, that we not manifest bad fruit, nor be like the one who WAS SAVED but now has forgotten and lacks good fruit, that the gates of Heaven BE provided to us".
Make certain of our election, walk in Him and show good fruit, that we go to Heaven, Luke. How could it be clearer? 2Pet1:5-11.
4. Is God sovereign?
No. Not in your view, it seems to me. First there is the assertion that "no one can believe in ANY measure WITHOUT monergistic-predestined-regeneration". Then in contradiction must come the admission that "some CAN believe but with a FALSE belief (Lk8:13) --- they are not elect so they won't persevere --- only perseverance until DEATH proves someone was "REAL-elect". (Lk8:15)
(And then such advocates will say "Oh we can KNOW we're saved!" Really? How can one know whether he has false-belief or real-belief until he DIES (and therefore proves "perseverance-'til-death")?
Then --- God must FORSAKE His own nature of "just" and "honorable" and "righteous", and predestine very many people to sinful reprobation.
In my perception of Scripture, God is sovereign --- fully and completely. But against Calvinism, that sovereignty absolutely allows God to choose to draw every last person TO belief, and to save those who believe and RETURN his love. I see no breech of soverignty whatsoever.
And this perfectly with all the warnings against true apostasy, all of Jesus' rebukes for unbelievers TO believe (Matt11:21-24, Jn5:39-47 for instance).
I cannot fit "predestined-election" to Scripture in any measure...
Belief is the response from a heart that is confronted with Jesus' Gospel, which suffers conviction of sin; realization of wretchedness, that apart from Jesus all is lost --- both in this life and in the next.
Paul says "with the HEART man believes" in Rm10:10, and "you became obedient from the HEART" in Rm16:17. 2Tim3:15 clearly presents saving-faith consequenting from conviction from studying the Scriptures. Those in Acts2:37 were "smitten in conscience" (pierced to their hearts) --- convicted. Against Calvinists' assertion that "reprobate man CANNOT believe", Jesus says "all are called" (Jn12:32), and Paul says that "God is well-pleased to save those who believe THROUGH the foolishness of the message preaced". (If Calvinism was right, the message would necessarily have to CEASE being foolish before and so-that-they-COULD believe.) Belief CAUSES salvation, unbelief CAUSES condemnation. Jn3:18, 1Jn5:10.
2. Where does predestination fit in your theology?
My intent is to conform my theology to Scripture. There is no "predestination to salvation" in Scripture. There is "predestined of the FOREKNOWN, to Christlikeness". I correctly understand Eph1's "chosen in Him before the foundation of the world" to operate through our faith (2Thess2:13). And "He predestined us to adoption as sons ...through the kind intention of His will", to reflect how His kind-intentioned-will is defined: "This is the WILL of God, that ALL who see Him and believe ...be saved." Jn6:40
Thus the MECHANISM of salvation is predestined; Jesus-on-the-Cross was predestined; but "whosoever WILL take of the water of life freely" (Rev22:17) joins that predestined-adoption-to-all-who-will-believe".
3. What is election?
The "elect", are the "saved". Yet against Calvinists' contention that "God monergistically-elects" (based on HIS reasons), Scripture says "we must make certain of our calling and election, that we not manifest bad fruit, nor be like the one who WAS SAVED but now has forgotten and lacks good fruit, that the gates of Heaven BE provided to us".
Make certain of our election, walk in Him and show good fruit, that we go to Heaven, Luke. How could it be clearer? 2Pet1:5-11.
4. Is God sovereign?
No. Not in your view, it seems to me. First there is the assertion that "no one can believe in ANY measure WITHOUT monergistic-predestined-regeneration". Then in contradiction must come the admission that "some CAN believe but with a FALSE belief (Lk8:13) --- they are not elect so they won't persevere --- only perseverance until DEATH proves someone was "REAL-elect". (Lk8:15)
(And then such advocates will say "Oh we can KNOW we're saved!" Really? How can one know whether he has false-belief or real-belief until he DIES (and therefore proves "perseverance-'til-death")?
Then --- God must FORSAKE His own nature of "just" and "honorable" and "righteous", and predestine very many people to sinful reprobation.
In my perception of Scripture, God is sovereign --- fully and completely. But against Calvinism, that sovereignty absolutely allows God to choose to draw every last person TO belief, and to save those who believe and RETURN his love. I see no breech of soverignty whatsoever.
And this perfectly with all the warnings against true apostasy, all of Jesus' rebukes for unbelievers TO believe (Matt11:21-24, Jn5:39-47 for instance).
I cannot fit "predestined-election" to Scripture in any measure...
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cygnusx1
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grays said:
The Arminian says ... ''We choose God and then God chose us.''
The 'soft Calvinists' says ...... ''God Chose us and then we chose Him''.
Jesus said "You did NOT choose me I chose YOU ....... "
what a stark contrast ........... The Lord pushed it so far to the right that no mistake could be made...
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oworm
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Ben johnson said:
Ben. How would you explain this:
AC 13:46-48 Then Paul and Barnabas answered them boldly: "We had to speak the word of God to you first. Since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiles. For this is what the Lord has commanded us:
" `I have made you a light for the Gentiles,
that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.' " When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.
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LukeBritt said:
I'm sure no matter what side people are on, they will end up doing this sort of thing. How do you approach John 6:70?
"Have not I chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!" John 6:70
This is the Greek word "eklego" same as in John 15:16. It's the verb form of "eklektos" which is translated "elect." So we could have:
"Have not I elected you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!"
So Judas was one of the elect, yet he was doomed to destruction. Surely if you want to avoid this, you would have to do what Ben does.
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cygnusx1
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Desolate Owl said:
no-one denies that election has several connotations ............ Jesus is Elect , Israel are Elect , when God chooses someone He usually has a purpose , not all purposes are salvivic .
Pharoah was also elected !!
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