How I became a Calvinist

[Ben johnson]

ben , how can I put this ................... you really need to do some more work on Divine Inspiration of The Scriptures ........ the writers were prophetic , they penned the very words of God ....... no errors , no misunderstandings , no memory problems .....

Were Matthew Mark Luke and John declared prophets? John was given the Revelation; but the 4 Gospels were accounts of "what happened". The gift of prophecy is not required for someone to be "led by God". The Spirit indwells the believer (through belief), inspiring him (or her) towards righteousness and towards God's desires.

Go to the Old Testament and consider carefully the level of accuracy demanded for a Prophet of God . Then consider the Scriptures clearly state that God put HIS WORD into the mouths of the prophets..... they were not merely remembering what they might say .... they were under the control of God.

No one denies that "the believer" is under God's control; I'm asserting that it is because of belief, because of willfull submission TO His control.

Have you not read in James4, "submit yourselves therefore to God; resist the devil and he will flee; draw near to God and He will draw near to you"?

 

[cygnusx1]

Were Matthew Mark Luke and John declared prophets? John was given the Revelation; but the 4 Gospels were accounts of "what happened". The gift of prophecy is not required for someone to be "led by God". The Spirit indwells the believer (through belief), inspiring him (or her) towards righteousness and towards God's desires.

The prophetic ministry IS required for the writing of scripture ben ......

No one denies that "the believer" is under God's control; I'm asserting that it is because of belief, because of willfull submission TO His control.

so you don't mind being under God's full control .................... good , you are just like Calvinist's !!!!

Have you not read in James4, "submit yourselves therefore to God; resist the devil and he will flee; draw near to God and He will draw near to you"?

Yes

 

[LukeBritt]

Yes --- I perceive that too. But think about what that means --- if hearing causes belief, then belief cannot be consequential to predestination. Belief must be causal to salvation.

If God predestines people to salvation --- that is to say, if God regenerates someone BEFORE he believes --- then belief is not tied to hearing, it is only the consequence of God's decision to "elect" and "regenerate" them.

A monergistically/unilaterally-regenerated person cannot do anything but believe; "faith" becomes "irresistible". It would not matter if he later hears the Gospel or not; his belief is still predestined.

If regeneration is subordinate to BELIEF, then it can be "tied to hearing" --- for hearing the Gospel can cause conviction, and conviction is belief.

"How can they believe in what they have not heard? And how can they hear without a preacher?" Rm10:14 Therefore belief is the consequence of a convicted heart, not a monergistically-regenerated-with-or-without-hearing-heart.

"When they heard, they were pierced to the heart (smitten in conscience) and asked, 'Brethren, what shall we do?' Peter answered, 'Repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and your children, and all who are far off, as many as God shall call to Himself.' And with many other words he solemnly testified and kept on exhorting them saying, 'Be saved from this perverse generation!' So then those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day three thousand souls. " Acts2:37-42

This passage does not assert "as many (FEW ELECT) He shall call" --- it asserts, "they were convicted and believed/repented". The "receive the Spirit" is the same as "poured" in Acts10:45, it is the same as "poured" in Titus3:6; it is through the received Spirit that repentance comes. After belief. Peter did not proclaim "REPENT, all you whom God has predestinedly-elected (of course you WILL repent, I'm exhorting you to follow God's sovereign-predestination which you cannot AVOID following)".

Peter truly charged them TO repent and to BE saved...

Why do you have to create the separation? The ideas can coexist. We choose to accept the gift of God that is salvation because we have been presented the gospel and God opens our hearts, as is the case with Lydia in Acts, and then we choose what we want...

 

[Ben johnson]

Why do you have to create the separation? The ideas can coexist. We choose to accept the gift of God that is salvation because we have been presented the gospel and God opens our hearts, as is the case with Lydia in Acts, and then we choose what we want...

The question between us, is "does God open certain person's hearts so they CAN believe", or "does He open their hearts THROUGH belief?"

You perceive that Jn6:45 & 65 are saying that "God gives them to Jesus so that they CAN believe". Let's read a couple verses, and see what you think of their meaning together:

"I manifested Thy name to the men whom Thou gavest Me out of the world; Thine they WERE, and Thou gavest them to Me." Jn17:6

"You believe in God, believe also in Me." Jn14:1

"How do you say 'show us the Father'? ...He who has seen ME, has seen the Father. Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me?" Jn14:9-10

Do you see how the idea of "given-to-Jesus and THEN they believe", is ruined? They belonged to God (believed/followed God), and THEN (through that belief) were given to Jesus. Because believing in God is the same as believing in Jesus, and vice-versa.

"If God were your Father, then you would love Me; for I have come from God..." Jn8:42

Believing-in-God, is the exact same concept as believing-in-Jesus. They are given to Jesus THROUGH their belief.

Jn8:42 is identically the same as Jn5:46-47: "If you believed Moses, then you would believe Me --- for He wrote of Me. But if you WILL not believe Moses, how will you believe My words?" Believing in God (following the Father, belonging to Him) --- is completely voluntary. It is THROUGH that belief-in-God that they are given to Jesus --- because Jesus is God-sent, therefore true believers in the Father also believe in Jesus.

Let's look at Lydia:
"A certain woman named Lydia, ...a worshipper of God, was listening; and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul." Acts16:14-16

Luke, what happened with Lydia? God opened her heart so she COULD believe in God and Jesus??? No! She "was a WORSHIPPER of God" --- it was through her belief in God that her heart was opened to Jesus!

You can search Scripture all you want, and you will not find the idea of "regeneration consequents in belief". And that is the most foundational requirement of "Predestined-Election". Belief is completely voluntary, and belief consequents in regeneration.

And this fully explains why Jesus was rebuking so many for willfully NOT believing. It completely explains Jn5:39-47, and fits perfectly with the berating in Matt11:21-24. Why would Jesus say (essentially) "It will go better for Tyre and Sydon and even Sodom, than for YOU; you have seen miracles but REFUSE to believe --- if THEY had seen what YOU have seen, THEY would have BELIEVED." That fits "predestination" not one bit; but it fits what I've been saying completely.

Doesn't it?

Regeneration is through the RECEIVED Spirit, and the Spirit is received by BELIEF (in Jesus). Have you ever been able to refute Titus 3:5-6, first alone, and then in conjunction with Acts10:35 (11:17)? Regeneration is through the POURED-THROUGH-BELIEF Spirit; the Spirit is POURED after belief. Pretty "iron-clad", isn't it?

 

[cygnusx1]

The question between us, is "does God open certain person's hearts so they CAN believe", or "does He open their hearts THROUGH belief?"

You perceive that Jn6:45 & 65 are saying that "God gives them to Jesus so that they CAN believe". Let's read a couple verses, and see what you think of their meaning together:

"I manifested Thy name to the men whom Thou gavest Me out of the world; Thine they WERE, and Thou gavest them to Me." Jn17:6

"You believe in God, believe also in Me." Jn14:1

"How do you say 'show us the Father'? ...He who has seen ME, has seen the Father. Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me?" Jn14:9-10

Do you see how the idea of "given-to-Jesus and THEN they believe", is ruined? They belonged to God (believed/followed God), and THEN (through that belief) were given to Jesus. Because believing in God is the same as believing in Jesus, and vice-versa.

"If God were your Father, then you would love Me; for I have come from God..." Jn8:42

Believing-in-God, is the exact same concept as believing-in-Jesus. They are given to Jesus THROUGH their belief.

Jn8:42 is identically the same as Jn5:46-47: "If you believed Moses, then you would believe Me --- for He wrote of Me. But if you WILL not believe Moses, how will you believe My words?" Believing in God (following the Father, belonging to Him) --- is completely voluntary. It is THROUGH that belief-in-God that they are given to Jesus --- because Jesus is God-sent, therefore true believers in the Father also believe in Jesus.

Let's look at Lydia:
"A certain woman named Lydia, ...a worshipper of God, was listening; and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul." Acts16:14-16

Luke, what happened with Lydia? God opened her heart so she COULD believe in God and Jesus??? No! She "was a WORSHIPPER of God" --- it was through her belief in God that her heart was opened to Jesus!

You can search Scripture all you want, and you will not find the idea of "regeneration consequents in belief". And that is the most foundational requirement of "Predestined-Election". Belief is completely voluntary, and belief consequents in regeneration.

And this fully explains why Jesus was rebuking so many for willfully NOT believing. It completely explains Jn5:39-47, and fits perfectly with the berating in Matt11:21-24. Why would Jesus say (essentially) "It will go better for Tyre and Sydon and even Sodom, than for YOU; you have seen miracles but REFUSE to believe --- if THEY had seen what YOU have seen, THEY would have BELIEVED." That fits "predestination" not one bit; but it fits what I've been saying completely.

Doesn't it?

Regeneration is through the RECEIVED Spirit, and the Spirit is received by BELIEF (in Jesus). Have you ever been able to refute Titus 3:5-6, first alone, and then in conjunction with Acts10:35 (11:17)? Regeneration is through the POURED-THROUGH-BELIEF Spirit; the Spirit is POURED after belief. Pretty "iron-clad", isn't it?

.............

 

[Ben johnson]

You're speechless???

 

[cygnusx1]

You're speechless???

yes but NOT thoughtless

 

[LukeBritt]

Ben, your first set of verses only proved that Jesus is God, which I believe.
With Lydia, she was not saved until God opened her heart. If she was already saved, why did she get baptized after listening to Paul?


Just to let you know: Your various colors and sizes and hyphonated words get on my nerves.

 

[cygnusx1]

Ben, your first set of verses only proved that Jesus is God, which I believe.
With Lydia, she was not saved until God opened her heart. If she was already saved, why did she get baptized after listening to Paul?


Just to let you know: Your various colors and sizes and hyphonated words get on my nerves.

do THEY really Luke ?

 

[Ben johnson]

Ben, your first set of verses only proved that Jesus is God, which I believe.
With Lydia, she was not saved until God opened her heart. If she was already saved, why did she get baptized after listening to Paul?

Lydia worshipped God under the terms of the Old Covenant. In Jn17:6 Jesus plainly (and undeniably) shows that when God gives people to Him, they are given through their belief. Predestination requires the establishment of "given and then believe" sequence; but clearly the context is "believe and through that belief are given to Jesus".

This idea is explained in verses like Jn8:42, and Jn5:46. "If God were your Father (if you believed/followed God), then you would love (follow/believe) Me." "If you believed Moses (believed/followed God), then you would believe Me."

Lydia believed and worshipped God; through that belief He opened her heart to believe in "Jesus-Messiah". There is no way to understand "Lydia-unbeliever was monergistically opened to belief in God and Jesus"; she was already a worshipper of God. Identically as "those whom God gives to Jesus, already belonged to Him previously (they already believed in God)".

Besides, the "given-to-Me" concept in Jn6, was answering their accusation of verse 42; they were questioning Jesus' authority, and Jesus said "all who are given to Me by God will come to Me" --- saying, that "those who believe in Me, are authorized/sanctioned by the Father".

It is an assertion of Jesus' authority, and cannot be made into a "monergistic-election" theory.

Lydia was baptized, because she understood that Jesus was the FULFILLMENT of the First Covenant (Law), therefore she accepted Jesus the NEW Covenant (grace). She was a believer, and God opened her heart to continue to believe (now through Jesus). Her heart was not opened so that she could BEGIN to believe.

Can you find any fault with the connection I see between Jn17:6, and Jn6:37, 44, 65? Can you deny that "Thine they were", clearly conveys that they "belonged/believed God BEFORE they were given to Jesus"?

 

[cygnusx1]

Lydia worshipped God under the terms of the Old Covenant. In Jn17:6 Jesus plainly (and undeniably) shows that when God gives people to Him, they are given through their belief. Predestination requires the establishment of "given and then believe" sequence; but clearly the context is "believe and through that belief are given to Jesus".

This idea is explained in verses like Jn8:42, and Jn5:46. "If God were your Father (if you believed/followed God), then you would love (follow/believe) Me." "If you believed Moses (believed/followed God), then you would believe Me."

Lydia believed and worshipped God; through that belief He opened her heart to believe in "Jesus-Messiah". There is no way to understand "Lydia-unbeliever was monergistically opened to belief in God and Jesus"; she was already a worshipper of God. Identically as "those whom God gives to Jesus, already belonged to Him previously (they already believed in God)".

Besides, the "given-to-Me" concept in Jn6, was answering their accusation of verse 42; they were questioning Jesus' authority, and Jesus said "all who are given to Me by God will come to Me" --- saying, that "those who believe in Me, are authorized/sanctioned by the Father".

It is an assertion of Jesus' authority, and cannot be made into a "monergistic-election" theory.

Lydia was baptized, because she understood that Jesus was the FULFILLMENT of the First Covenant (Law), therefore she accepted Jesus the NEW Covenant (grace). She was a believer, and God opened her heart to continue to believe (now through Jesus). Her heart was not opened so that she could BEGIN to believe.

Can you find any fault with the connection I see between Jn17:6, and Jn6:37, 44, 65? Can you deny that "Thine they were", clearly conveys that they "belonged/believed God BEFORE they were given to Jesus"?

pure eisegesis ............ nothing more nothing less ..........

under this barren view of thing s Grace becomes redundant , and Lydia was not saved because God had mercy upon her , but because she had mercy on God!

 

[Ben johnson]

pure eisegesis ............ nothing more nothing less ..........

Show me how.

Deny the connection between between Jn17:6, and Jn6:37, 44, 65.

 

[cygnusx1]

Show me how.

Deny the connection between between Jn17:6, and Jn6:37, 44, 65.

show you how .................... you must be joking .......... it is pointless showing you ... ben you are not even facing in the same direction , so showing you anything is an exercise in futility .

''God Reigns Let the peoples tremble''

 

[Ben johnson]

Then the refutation of your position stands. Lydia was a believer/worshipper of God, and THROUGH her godly devotion her heart was opened to Jesus.

All those who are given to Jesus, were first BELIEVERS in God; they belonged to God, and through their love/devotion they were given to Jesus.

Even Paul --- who thought he was serving God (schooled in Scriptures), persecuting those whom he thought were against God; but God in an undeniable confrontation made Paul realize that he was working against God Himself.

These people were not "filthy-slaves-of-corruption"; Lydia was following God, Paul thought he was following God; when each was confronted with the reality of Christ, each believed and received Christ.

Cygnus, your other "pillars" remain tilted also. Regeneration is consequential to belief; true believers can become unbelievers (and forfeit salvation); atonement is availed to every last person. I mean no disrespect --- refutation is refutation.

 

[cygnusx1]

Lydia is saved by her Godly devotions .............. ^ ........ instead of by the Grace of God ,.... that is another Gospel you are preaching ben!

 

[Ben johnson]

Lydia is saved by her Godly devotions .............. ^ ........ instead of by the Grace of God ,.... that is another Gospel you are preaching ben!

Lydia is saved by God's grace; through her belief. Thus, as Peter said in 1:1:9, "receiving as the outcome of her faith the salvation of her soul".

As Paul said in 1Tim4:16, she was to "pay close attention to herself and her teaching, persevere (herself) in this; for as she did she would SAVE HERSELF..."

Her "godly devotion" is nothing other than "belief"; and she could be "deceived away from the purity and simplicity of devotion to Christ just as EVE was deceived by the serpent"... 2Cor11:3

We are protected by His power, through our faith (1Pet1:5). His grace, our belief. By the Spirit we are to "GUARD what He entrusts to us", as "He guards what WE entrust to Him". 2Tim1:12-14

 

[cygnusx1]

Lydia is saved by God's grace; through her belief. Thus, as Peter said in 1:1:9, "receiving as the outcome of her faith the salvation of her soul".

As Paul said in 1Tim4:16, she was to "pay close attention to herself and her teaching, persevere (herself) in this; for as she did she would SAVE HERSELF..."

Her "godly devotion" is nothing other than "belief"; and she could be "deceived away from the purity and simplicity of devotion to Christ just as EVE was deceived by the serpent"... 2Cor11:3

We are protected by His power, through our faith (1Pet1:5). His grace, our belief. By the Spirit we are to "GUARD what He entrusts to us", as "He guards what WE entrust to Him". 2Tim1:12-14

why do you continue to place faith BEFORE Grace ben ..............

has it not been told you , that Grace is the Ground of Our Salvation ........NOT some secondary principal that has another ground.

we Believed through Grace!

Acts 18:27

When he had determined to pass over into Achaia, the brothers encouraged him, and wrote to the disciples to receive him. When he had come, he greatly helped those who had believed through grace; (WEB)

And when he was minded to pass over into Achaia, the brethren encouraged him, and wrote to the disciples to receive him: and when he was come, he helped them much that had believed through grace; (ASV)

And when he had a desire to go over into Achaia, the brothers gave him help, and sent letters to the disciples requesting them to take him in among them: and when he had come, he gave much help to those who had faith through grace: (BBE)

And when he purposed to go into Achaia, the brethren wrote to the disciples engaging them to receive him, who, being come, contributed much to those who believed through grace. (DBY)

And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace: (KJV)

And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he had come, helped them much who had believed through grace. (WBS)

Then, as he had made up his mind to cross over into Greece, the brethren wrote to the disciples in Corinth begging them to give him a kindly welcome. Upon his arrival he rendered valuable help to those who through grace had believed; (WEY)

and he being minded to go through into Achaia, the brethren wrote to the disciples, having exhorted them to receive him, who having come, did help them much who have believed through the grace, (YLT)

 

[Ben johnson]

why do you continue to place faith BEFORE Grace, Ben .........

From God's view, grace comes before faith; it was grace through love that bound Jesus to the Cross --- predestined from time begun.

...but from our view, it is faith that receives His grace; for us, faith comes before grace saves us.

We BELIEVED through His grace --- His grace was "Christ-on-the-Cross", that whosever sees and BELIEVES may have eternal life.

You're wanting it to say that "belief is nothing but a second dispenation of grace".

...changing verses like Eph2:8 into, "For by grace through grace have you been saved"...

Grace is the provision; faith is the realization. Belief is causal; belief in Christ receives the Spirit, and through the received Spirit comes regeneration.

There is no way to deny that sequence in Titus3:5-6:
Our-Savior-Christ => poured-Spirit => regeneration

There is no way to deny "poured" in Titus3:6, is "poured" in Acts10:45. And it's AFTER belief. Acts 11:17

 

[LukeBritt]

anthropocentricity....

 

[cygnusx1]

From God's view, grace comes before faith; it was grace through love that bound Jesus to the Cross --- predestined from time begun.

...but from our view, it is faith that receives His grace; for us, faith comes before grace saves us.

We BELIEVED through His grace --- His grace was "Christ-on-the-Cross", that whosever sees and BELIEVES may have eternal life.

You're wanting it to say that "belief is nothing but a second dispenation of grace".

...changing verses like Eph2:8 into, "For by grace through grace have you been saved"...

Grace is the provision; faith is the realization. Belief is causal; belief in Christ receives the Spirit, and through the received Spirit comes regeneration.

There is no way to deny that sequence in Titus3:5-6:
Our-Savior-Christ => poured-Spirit => regeneration

There is no way to deny "poured" in Titus3:6, is "poured" in Acts10:45. And it's AFTER belief. Acts 11:17

ben you have gone into waffle mode .......... but then again .........

''who cares''