How I became a Calvinist

[Ben johnson]

ben you have gone into waffle mode .......... but then again .........

''who cares''

Cygnus --- I like you. You are intelligent, caring, and kind in your posts. There is no doubt your heart seeks after God.

You should care --- for "predestination" cannot stand under these verses. It's not that you are following "false-doctrine that will condemn you"; but that you do not have the full essence of what Jesus taught.

 

[cygnusx1]

Cygnus --- I like you. You are intelligent, caring, and kind in your posts. There is no doubt your heart seeks after God.

You should care --- for "predestination" cannot stand under these verses. It's not that you are following "false-doctrine that will condemn you"; but that you do not have the full essence of what Jesus taught.

I like you too ben .......... you just need to focus

we believe through Grace .

and then you will realise that God has chosen you before the world began , you were not seeking Him , you were seeking self , and it was By Grace that you were saved , through faith .

I love predestination , and those that fight it are acting like fools , boasting about gifts they don't even realise they have been given !

''Hey , I chose to be born , I chose , to have good health , I chose to have a Christian family , I chose to have a great job'' .......... etc etc etc .........

''No you didn't God was blessing you all along'' !!!!

''bbbbbbbbut that's not fair''!

''what has mercy got to do with being fair''?


just try and carefully examine your background , see the guiding hand of God ,,, see God at work even when you were far away , lost , and blind , and dead in trespasses and sins ............

 

[Ben johnson]

we believe through Grace .

And you take Philip1:29 to mean "It has been few-selectively-monergistically-chosen to believe and suffer". But the "granted", includes Jn6:40: "His will is that all who see Jesus and believe may have eternal life."

Grace is the provision; belief is the realization. Belief is not the provision (to us by God); belief is the will that freely receives God's grace. It is not "it is grace that instills belief", but rather "we believe through Jesus' sacrifice that all who believe should not perish but have eternal life".

and then you will realize that God has chosen you before the world began...

The idea of "chosen in Him before the world began" (Eph1:4), harmonizes with Jesus being predestined, and whosoever believes becomes one of the chosen-for-salvation (through Jesus' predestined-sacrifice). This is the only meaning I can see in Matt22:2-14; all were called, but only those who received, became the chosen. "Many are called but few are chosen" --- in context, reflects NOTHING of determination by the King, but EVERYTHING of determination by the invitees.

you were not seeking Him , you were seeking self...

Then why does it say "If you SEEK Me, you will FIND Me, when you search with all your heart"?

and it was By Grace that you were saved , through faith .

But you really mean, "By grace that you were saved, through grace" --- don't you?

just try and carefully examine your background , see the guiding hand of God ,,, see God at work even when you were far away , lost , and blind , and dead in trespasses and sins ............

I was "dead in my trespasses", and He "made me alive" (Eph2:5); when I was "smitten in conscience" (Acts2:37), when my "faith came from hearing the Gospel" (Rm10:17); my faith also came from "reading the Scriptures" (2Pet3:15). So "while I was dead in my sins, He made me alive, THROUGH MY FAITH!" (Eph2:5-8)

To every one who is reprobate, who "sees the Gospel as foolishness", nevertheless God is "well pleased to save those who believe THROUGH the foolishness". (1Cor1:18-21)

It is belief that receives Christ, that changes the message from "foolish" to "power"; it is belief that causes salvation, not the other way around. It is unbelief that causes condemnation --- willfull, rebellious, unbelief.

"You search the Scriptures, thinking in them you have eternal life; but they speak of Me and you are UNWILLING to come to Me that you may have life. HOW can you believe, WHEN you seek one another's glory rather than glory from the one and only God? Do not think that I will accuse you; the one who accuses you is Moses, in whom you (say you have) set your hope. But Moses wrote of Me; if you do not believe Moses' words, how will you believe My words?" Jn5:39-47

 

[cygnusx1]

ben why waste your time quoting passages that are to do with human responsibility ?

They are NOT opposed to the Doctrine Of Divine Sovereignty one jot!

I have said before , and I say it again , I believe in human reponsibility more than you do!

You merely believe that man is responsible for that which he is capable of .......... that is such a man centered and Unbiblical assumption.

 

[Ben johnson]

ben why waste your time quoting passages that are to do with human responsibility ?

They are NOT opposed to the Doctrine Of Divine Sovereignty one jot!

Responsible, conveys "causal". You do not believe that responsibility is causal to salvation; you believe vice-versa.

I have said before , and I say it again , I believe in human reponsibility more than you do!

Nope. You believe that Divine Election consequents in faith; thus the "responsibility" is something else that "flows invariably/irresistibly from His monergistic regeneration".

You merely believe that man is responsible for that which he is capable of .......... that is such a man centered and Unbiblical assumption.

Paul writes: "We are under obligation not to walk after the flesh --- if you do, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the flesh, you will live." You see "obligation" as something God instills, don't you? I see it as "responsibility".

God is sovereign; and we are responsible.
The "doctrine of Divine Sovereignty", is really that God sovereignly saves all who WILL believe.
Grace is availed to all; belief is charged to the individual.
Every person is drawn to Him; each chooses to believe, or to continue in sin.
Salvation is "fellowship of love"; love cannot instill reciprocal regard in others; love can only ASK to be returned.
Belief causes salvation; not vice-versa.
Many verses charge US with diligenct to abide in Christ (and in salvation).

We are responsible. From "beginning faith to ending faith"...

 

[cygnusx1]

Responsible, conveys "causal". You do not believe that responsibility is causal to salvation; you believe vice-versa.
Nope. You believe that Divine Election consequents in faith; thus the "responsibility" is something else that "flows invariably/irresistibly from His monergistic regeneration".
Paul writes: "We are under obligation not to walk after the flesh --- if you do, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the flesh, you will live." You see "obligation" as something God instills, don't you? I see it as "responsibility".

God is sovereign; and we are responsible.
The "doctrine of Divine Sovereignty", is really that God sovereignly saves all who WILL believe.
Grace is availed to all; belief is charged to the individual.
Every person is drawn to Him; each chooses to believe, or to continue in sin.
Salvation is "fellowship of love"; love cannot instill reciprocal regard in others; love can only ASK to be returned.
Belief causes salvation; not vice-versa.
Many verses charge US with diligenct to abide in Christ (and in salvation).

We are responsible. From "beginning faith to ending faith"...

God is responsible for saving me ... I didn't elect myself .... I was chosen before I was born , Christ died for us (the Church) when we were in Adam , when we were lost and dead in trespasses and sins .
Did you arrange God to take away your sins ?
No , it was done without your knowledge or consent!

As for faith , Unbelief you are responsible for , not faith!

Just as you are accountable for your sin , not your good works !

the differnece is so obvious it is a wonder it even needs spelling out ,,,,,, it is not you per se , that does good deeds , but Christ in you that does them , consider the crowns given to the overcomers at Glory , they are cast at the feet of Jesus , why ?
Because all men then recognise TRUE responsibility and accountability for salvation and good works is a gift , it is by Grace , it is by Christ in us that we overcome , without Him we can do .... NOTHING!
yes that includes faith!

salvation is all of Grace , even our good works are predestined !

 

[LukeBritt]

Ben, who's faith is it?

 

[Ben johnson]

God is responsible for saving me ... I didn't elect myself .... I was chosen before I was born...

"Chosen from the beginning ...through faith..." 2Thess2:13

Christ died for us (the Church) when we were in Adam , when we were lost and dead in trespasses and sins.

When we were "lost and dead in sins", we BELIEVED. And THEN He "made us alive". Through our faith...

Did you arrange God to take away your sins ?

Technically, yes. "If we CONFESS our sins (repent), He is faithful and just to forgive our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." 1Jn1:9 So --- it is repentance and confessing our sins that causes God to forgive us. God commands ALL to repent (Acts17:30); Jesus admonishes the Jews TO repent (Lk13:3).

Repentance/confession is what "arranges" for God to forgive sins...

No , it was done without your knowledge or consent!

That's true --- IF you can find a verse to support that! I've found no such verse, Cygnus; I find:
"If you confess your sins He forgives..." 1Jn1:9
"If we walk in the Light, ...the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all unrighteousness." 1Jn1:7

Show me a verse, any verse, that states "God took away (forgave) our sins BEFORE we believed and repented".

As for faith , Unbelief you are responsible for , not faith!

Really? "Receive as the outcome of YOUR FAITH the salvation of your souls." 1Pet1:9
"According to YOUR FAITH be it done to you." Matt9:29
"YOUR FAITH has healed you." Mk10:52
"YOUR FAITH has saved you; go in peace." Lk7:50

With regard to "monergistic-instilled-faith", please look at these:
"He was amazed at their lack of faith". Mk6:6
"I have prayed that your faith not fail". Lk22:32
"Be on your guard, stand firm in the faith; act like men, be strong." 1Cor16:13
"Not that we lord if over your faith, but are workers with you for your joy; for in your faith you are standing firm." 2Cor1:24
"Put on the shield of faith..." Eph6:16
"I am delighted to see how firm your faith in Christ is." Col2:5
"Night and day we pray earnestly that ...we may supply what is lacking in your faith" 1Tim3:10
"We speak proudly of you among the churches for your perseverance and faith in the midst of all your persecutions and afflictions you endure." 2Thess1:4
Which of these reflect "monergistically-instilled-faith"? Why would Paul "speak proudly of their perseverance and faith in the midst of their persecutions and afflictions", if faith was something unilaterally imparted by God?

Just as you are accountable for your sin , not your good works !

Why are we "accountable for sin" (which is the same as "unbelief"), if we are not accountable for "belief"?

the difference is so obvious it is a wonder it even needs spelling out ,,,,,, it is not you per se , that does good deeds , but Christ in you that does them ,

Amen; quite correct. And yet --- He does those good deeds through us, because He is IN us (and we are IN CHRIST). Are we not to "examine ourselves to SEE if we are IN CHRIST"? 2Cor13:5)

consider the crowns given to the overcomers at Glory , they are cast at the feet of Jesus , why ?

Because all men then recognise TRUE responsibility and accountability for salvation and good works is a gift , it is by Grace , it is by Christ in us that we overcome , without Him we can do .... NOTHING!
yes that includes faith!

Faith is God's choice, and His responsibility, not ours. How do you support that with Scripture? I cited 4 verses that plainly say "your faith" and "salvation"; I cited 8 verses that charge individuals with their own faith (or praising those who PERSEVERED in faith in SPITE of persecution/affliction). How does all of that, mesh with your belief?

salvation is all of Grace , even our good works are predestined !

Salvation is "by grace through faith"; yet your view makes it "by grace through grace". Show me how the idea of "grace is God's unilateral-monergistic instillment in us".

 

[cygnusx1]

"Chosen from the beginning ...through faith..." 2Thess2:13 When we were "lost and dead in sins", we BELIEVED. And THEN He "made us alive". Through our faith...

ben , why do you persist in making Salvation and Election come under man's power ?
The Flesh profits nothing!
Faith is instrumental to salvation , not it's cause ......... again and again you confuse the means with the cause ...... I thank God for faith , because God granted me faith , I didn't always believe , I was too blind to see .
My inheritance from Adam was slavery , but praise God my inheritance from Christ is freedom. I believed , yes , but my belief was by Grace ......... ''nothing in my hand I cling''

Technically, yes. "If we CONFESS our sins (repent), He is faithful and just to forgive our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." 1Jn1:9 So --- it is repentance and confessing our sins that causes God to forgive us. God commands ALL to repent (Acts17:30); Jesus admonishes the Jews TO repent (Lk13:3).

"causes God to forgive us " ........ that is appaling !
Nothing causes God to do anything , He isn't a creature , He is Sovereign over all , and He causes things not the other way about .........

Repentance/confession is what "arranges" for God to forgive sins...
That's true --- IF you can find a verse to support that! I've found no such verse, Cygnus; I find:
"If you confess your sins He forgives..." 1Jn1:9
"If we walk in the Light, ...the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all unrighteousness." 1Jn1:7

Repentance is a gift ............. God doesn't give that gift to everyone.......... God doesn't even give the Gospel to everyone.

Show me a verse, any verse, that states "God took away (forgave) our sins BEFORE we believed and repented".

"The Lamb of God that Takest Away the sins of the World" ......... when did Jesus take away sin ? On the cross , you just hadn't recieved it yet .
Just like an inheritance is certain , and settled .
I had to wait quite some time for my inheritance to come through , but it was already mine legally!
I don't have any problem with God's Unilateral Love and Blessings and Grace.
He blessed us in Christ Jesus before He even made Adam , you want scripture ................go look!

Which of these reflect "monergistically-instilled-faith"? Why would Paul "speak proudly of their perseverance and faith in the midst of their persecutions and afflictions", if faith was something unilaterally imparted by God?
Why are we "accountable for sin" (which is the same as "unbelief"), if we are not accountable for "belief"?

Because sin comes from us , and ALL good comes from God!
Paul once started getting excited about what he had achieved in Christ , he tells his readers that he was in no way inferior to the other Apostles , he starts by saying how well he had done , and then by and by goes on to say it wasn't really himself that did it , but Christ !!!
Once you get to that point , you really have understood Grace!

Amen; quite correct. And yet --- He does those good deeds through us, because He is IN us (and we are IN CHRIST). Are we not to "examine ourselves to SEE if we are IN CHRIST"? 2Cor13:5)

assuredly .......

Faith is God's choice, and His responsibility, not ours. How do you support that with Scripture? I cited 4 verses that plainly say "your faith" and "salvation"; I cited 8 verses that charge individuals with their own faith (or praising those who PERSEVERED in faith in SPITE of persecution/affliction). How does all of that, mesh with your belief?

Once a person has faith they can use it or neglect it , like any GIFT , so accountability is put forth , but notice it is accountability in the negative , paradoxical though it may sound , if we are Lost we have only ourselves to blame , if we are saved we have ONLY Christ to Praise!

Salvation is "by grace through faith"; yet your view makes it "by grace through grace". Show me how the idea of "grace is God's unilateral-monergistic instillment in us".

because we believed by Grace!



bless you ben.


"Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect" 2Tim 2:10