How I became a Calvinist

[Rolf Ernst]

Ben Johnson--Check your concordance for the way the Bible uses "knew"and "foreknew"

Remember as you do so that the text in Romans does not say "Whom He foreknew would believe, or would do this or that" The Bible says that they themselves were "foreknown."

To be foreknown is to be loved "from" everlasting "to" everlasting. Read Ps. 103:17: ...the mercy of the LORD is "from" everlasting "to" everlasting. Those whom God purposed to have mercy upon "from" everlasting are the same who were "foreknown" and "chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world." Note that proverbs chapter eight records that the "delights" of the Son of God were in "the sons of men" before the beginning of creation; i.e., the Son of God, before the foundation of the world, was delighting in those whom the Father had, in solemn covenant, promised to Him in the Covenant of Redemption. Through Jeremiah, He says, I "have" loved you with an "everlasting" love. THEREFORE with lovingkindness, I have drawn you.

When Scripture says that The mercy of the LORD is "from" everlasting "to" everlasting (Ps.103:17) it means that those of whom God said, "I will have mercy upon whom I will have mercy" are "from" everlasting "to" everlasting "foreknown" by God. It means that in the eternity past, there was never one moment in which God did not have a determination to be merciful to them, and furthermore, that in all the fulness of the eternity ahead, there would never be a moment in which God's determination to be merciful to them would cease.

That means that there some who are born into this world who have from everlasting been the objects of His mercy, and that throughout their sojourn upon earth God's mercy will continually rest upon them, and will follow them forever throughout eternity ahead.

Tell me--Did these people then believe in Christ because of God's mercy upon them, OR did they find some niche in the full span of eternity in which they themselves, apart from god's mercy, believed and hence were elected on the basis of God foreknowing that they woiuld believe? How did those who believed come to faith without god's mercy resting upon them. How did they believe apart from that mercy?
What did Jesus mean when He said,"blessed" art thou, Simon barjonah, for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee but my Father which is in heaven" What is the connection between God's mercy, and His "blessing" people with faith?

 

[Ben johnson]

Ben Johnson--Check your concordance for the way the Bible uses "knew"and "foreknew"

Remember as you do so that the text in Romans does not say "Whom He foreknew would believe, or would do this or that" The Bible says that they themselves were "foreknown."

That doesn't answer the question, Rolf. I understand that "He foreknew those who LOVED Him" from Romans 8. And I understand that "He KNEW the Galatians, but now by forsaking grace and returning to works they are SEVERED from Christ and FALLEN from grace." This is identical to that supposed-predestination-passage Romans9, verses 30-32 --- where they "failed to attain righteousness because they pursued it by WORKS rather than by FAITH."

Rm8:29 "Proginosko" (know beforehand)
Gal4:9 "Ginosko" (know intimately)
Gal5:4 "apo katargeo" (severed/become-no-effect) --- "ekpipto" (fallen)

The question is: "How can you make that into 'didn't really fall from salvation'?"

Those whom God purposed to have mercy upon "from" everlasting are the same who were "foreknown" and "chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world

What you're misunderstanding is the idea of "chosen in Him before time". And that is because you've been taught that "saving-faith is INSTILLED (monergistically) by God".

First, it can be established that "saving-faith is by conviction and personal choice". Then, it is clear that "we are chosen from the beginning ...THROUGH our own faith". 2Thess2:13

And this reflects perfectly with the parable Jesus told in Matt22:2-14, that "many are called but few are chosen". Those CHOSEN, are they who RECEIVED the invitation (came), AND clothed themselves with His righteousness. Those who were NOT chosen were called equally --- but DECIDED not to come (one had business, one had farming, etc.).

That means that there some who are born into this world who have from everlasting been the objects of His mercy, and that throughout their sojourn upon earth God's mercy will continually rest upon them, and will follow them forever throughout eternity ahead.

Please answer a second question (which you also will not be able to do as long as you hold to predestination) --- what was Jesus doing in Matt11:21-24? Sarcastically HARRANGUING them? TAUNTING those whom He know COULD NEVER believe?

The only understanding ("it will go better for THEM than for YOU!") is that He was berating them for willful disbelief. If not, then what?

That means that there some who are born into this world who have from everlasting been the objects of His mercy, and that throughout their sojourn upon earth God's mercy will continually rest upon them, and will follow them forever throughout eternity ahead.

God's mercy avails to ALL. Rm11:32 And ALL who see Jesus and believe may be saved. Jn6:40 All who RECEIVE His merciful invitation become part of the chosen. Matt22:2-14

Tell me--Did these people then believe in Christ because of God's mercy upon them, OR did they find some niche in the full span of eternity in which they themselves, apart from God's mercy, believed and hence were elected on the basis of God foreknowing that they woiuld believe? How did those who believed come to faith without god's mercy resting upon them. How did they believe apart from that mercy?

They believed because of God's mercy; mercy which is poured out on ALL --- some are convicted and believe (love God), some love darkness instead. Jn3:19

What did Jesus mean when He said,"blessed" art thou, Simon barjonah, for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee but my Father which is in heaven"?

Matt16:17 is identical to Jn10:24-26.

"I told you (that I'm the Messiah), and you wouldn't believe (that I'm the Messiah) because you are not of My sheep (because you haven't believed in Me)."

Peter knew Jesus was the Messiah because he believed in Jesus.

What is the connection between God's mercy, and His "blessing" people with faith?

Perhaps Heb6:7-8 will help you; two fields are tilled the SAME --- if one yields FRUIT it is BLESSED; if the other yields THORNS it is CURSED...

 

[cygnusx1]

Peter knew Jesus was the Messiah because he believed in Jesus. ben

this is as expected the exact opposite of the truth .........

this page will set the record straight ........

http://www.desiringgod.org/library/sermons/86/113086.html

 

[sojourner]

Rolf,

When Scripture says that The mercy of the LORD is "from" everlasting "to" everlasting (Ps.103:17) it means that those of whom God said, "I will have mercy upon whom I will have mercy" are "from" everlasting "to" everlasting "foreknown" by God. It means that in the eternity past, there was never one moment in which God did not have a determination to be merciful to them, and furthermore, that in all the fulness of the eternity ahead, there would never be a moment in which God's determination to be merciful to them would cease.

If you read this very carefully and follow your argument, then you would be classified a Universalist because you are also placing this under salvation. All those to whom God showed mercy have received salvation.
Romans 11:32 explains very clearly just on whom God has shown mercy...... mercy from everlasting to everlasting.

 

[cygnusx1]

The Covenant of Grace is The Covenant of Election ...... it is set in eternity , it cannot fail !

 

[cygnusx1]

That doesn't answer the question, Rolf. I understand that "He foreknew those who LOVED Him" from Romans 8. And I understand that "He KNEW the Galatians, but now by forsaking grace and returning to works they are SEVERED from Christ and FALLEN from grace." This is identical to that supposed-predestination-passage Romans9, verses 30-32 --- where they "failed to attain righteousness because they pursued it by WORKS rather than by FAITH."

Rm8:29 "Proginosko" (know beforehand)
Gal4:9 "Ginosko" (know intimately)
Gal5:4 "apo katargeo" (severed/become-no-effect) --- "ekpipto" (fallen)

The question is: "How can you make that into 'didn't really fall from salvation'?"
What you're misunderstanding is the idea of "chosen in Him before time". And that is because you've been taught that "saving-faith is INSTILLED (monergistically) by God".

First, it can be established that "saving-faith is by conviction and personal choice". Then, it is clear that "we are chosen from the beginning ...THROUGH our own faith". 2Thess2:13

And this reflects perfectly with the parable Jesus told in Matt22:2-14, that "many are called but few are chosen". Those CHOSEN, are they who RECEIVED the invitation (came), AND clothed themselves with His righteousness. Those who were NOT chosen were called equally --- but DECIDED not to come (one had business, one had farming, etc.).
Please answer a second question (which you also will not be able to do as long as you hold to predestination) --- what was Jesus doing in Matt11:21-24? Sarcastically HARRANGUING them? TAUNTING those whom He know COULD NEVER believe?

The only understanding ("it will go better for THEM than for YOU!") is that He was berating them for willful disbelief. If not, then what?
God's mercy avails to ALL. Rm11:32 And ALL who see Jesus and believe may be saved. Jn6:40 All who RECEIVE His merciful invitation become part of the chosen. Matt22:2-14
They believed because of God's mercy; mercy which is poured out on ALL --- some are convicted and believe (love God), some love darkness instead. Jn3:19
Matt16:17 is identical to Jn10:24-26.

"I told you (that I'm the Messiah), and you wouldn't believe (that I'm the Messiah) because you are not of My sheep (because you haven't believed in Me)."

Peter knew Jesus was the Messiah because he believed in Jesus.
Perhaps Heb6:7-8 will help you; two fields are tilled the SAME --- if one yields FRUIT it is BLESSED; if the other yields THORNS it is CURSED...

ben still argues for a tempory salvation ........ a tempory conditional covenant ...... able to fall to the ground and rob God of a Church ......

 

[seekingpurity047]

Ephesians 1:4-5

4For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5he[c] predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will

Predestination doesn't exist for the believer? I highly doubt that.

I noticed that you mentioned that Judas could have left, meaning that Judas didn't have to give Jesus up for 30 pieces of silver, correct?

I would have to disagree with this too. If Judas had not had given Jesus up for that money, Jesus would not hvae been caught, and Jesus wouldn't be the saviour, because it's a prophecy. God chose Judas to fulfill scripture, therefore to give Jesus up for 30 pieces of silver, to show that Jesus is the messiah. If this would not have happened, the scriptures would hvae been wrong, and we'd be believing in something false, but, by the grace of God, God ordained for this to happened, He predestined that Judas Iscariot give Jesus up for 30 pieces of silver, becuase that's what was prophecies centuries before.

1 Tim 2:3-4

3This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

This verse doesn't mean what you think it means, obviously. God does want all men to be saved, because He loves all men, HOWEVER, it isn't His will that all men be saved, because if it was, then all men wouold be saved, right? God's will reigns over everything, you can't resist His will (Irresistable grace).

Now, you said that God would be injust to disregard some, to send some to hell, and some to heaven.

Romans 9:14-21

14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."[f] 16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."[g] 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
19One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "[h] 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

But for the arminian, this whole chapter would be disregarded, or taken out of context. The chapter means waht it means. God is sovereign over all things, His will is sovereign. Do you knwo waht is God's will, Ben Johnson?

Exodus 14:4

And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and he will pursue them. But I will gain glory for myself through Pharaoh and all his army, and the Egyptians will know that I am the LORD.

If you have read the bible, which I sincerely hope you have, you would notice that in exodus, God performed ten miracles, HOWEVER, Pharaoh threw in the white flag several times, he was willing to let the Israelites go. But, as you should notice, by God's sovereign will, God hardened pharaoh's heart, therefore not letting the peopel actually go with the provisions they wanted. God hardened Pharaoh's heart for one reason, so that the Egyptians will know "That I am the LORD!" To know that God is the Lord is not the same as to believe that God is the Lord. Faith and knowledge are two very different things. Atheists rely on knowledge (or the lack of it lol) and we, as believers in Christ Jesus, rely on Faith. Everything works out for God's glory, so that His glory may shine. Arminianism is trying to diminish His glory, by saying that we had something to do with our salvation, but man is depraved. We can't possibly believe the gospel by our own will, for it is jibberish to man that isn't called to faith in Christ.

Romans 9:10-13

10Not only that, but Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. 11Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who calls—she was told, "The older will serve the younger." 13Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

Of course, the arminian will say "Faith isn't a work" and that God saw the faith that Jacob will have. Let me ask you this, however, if God would have chosen Esau, if He would have said "Esau I loved, but Jacob I hated.", would Esau have come to have faith? YES OF COURSE! You can't deny that.

I think that is all for today.

Blessings be to you all,

Randy

 

[cygnusx1]

good post Randy ^

isn't it amazing that even evil deeds serve God's purpose ........ surely God's ways are far far in advance of our attempts at fully understanding just How He does it ......... Isn't God wonderful , mysterious and all powerful.

Even Satan who is His arch enemy fulfills the Divine decree. (read Job)

 

[emm3]

.

 

[Ben johnson]

this is as expected the exact opposite of the truth .........

this page will set the record straight ........

In this text Jesus asks the disciples, "Who do you say that I am?" So I am going to observe first of all that we prepare our hearts to receive Christ by recognizing who he really is. It's very important that we know what it means to receive Christ for who he really is.

Suppose your doorbell rings and you answer it and discover there a famous person, say Billy Graham, and you swing the door wide and give him the best seat and serve him on your best china and generally make a big fuss over him—and then discover that it isn't Billy Graham at all. And suppose he asks you why you are making such a big affair out of his presence, and you answer, "O I thought you were Billy Graham." What have you done to your guest? You have belittled him. He thought your honor was for him, but it was really for someone else because you didn't recognize who he really was.

That's the way it is if we try to receive Christ into our hearts not knowing who he really is. He is not honored by our ignorance. You can't honor someone by bestowing favors on them when you mistake them for someone they really aren't.

So in order to receive Christ in a way that honors him, in a way that saves, we must recognize who he really is. We must see his glory and agree in our heart that he is indeed worthy of all our trust and obedience.

In this text Jesus queries the disciples to see if they have arrived at that kind of knowledge of who he really is. Verse 15: "Who do you say that I am?" Peter answers for the group in verse 16: "You are the Christ (the long awaited Messiah) the Son of the living God."

Jesus says Peter is blessed for giving that answer. So now the question becomes, How did Peter come to have this true insight into the identity of Jesus Christ How did he know who he really was? That is our main question this morning. How is the heart prepared to recognize Jesus so that he can be received for who he really is?

Verse 17 gives the answer of Jesus:

Jesus answered him, "Blessed are you Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven."

So the answer to our question is that to recognize Jesus for who he really you need something more than flesh and blood. Or to put it more positively, to recognize and receive Christ for who he really is God the Father must reveal it to you.

This proposes that "no one can come to God unless God regenerates him and reveals Himself (irresistibly drawing him), FIRST".

My guess is that many of you, as you sit there, are saying, "I can't answer those questions. I've never even thought of my conversion in those terms." Well, don't panic, because every person who has ever been converted to Christ was converted on the basis of a very limited understanding of what was happening.

One person might say, "I believed on Jesus."

Another might say, "I prayed to receive Christ."

Another might say, "I confessed Jesus as Lord and believed in my heart that God raised him from the dead."

Another might say, "I was born again."

Another, "I was crucified with Christ and now walk by faith."

Every person who has ever been converted to Christ was converted on the basis of a limited understanding of what was really happening. So don't be surprised that there may be Biblical descriptions of what happened to you that you may not yet understand. It takes a life time to grasp the depth and wonder of the miracle of conversion to Christ.

Here he flat contradicts his previous hypothesis. THIS quotation completely reflects what I said --- those who BELIEVE in Christ, then (through that belief) learn fully who He IS! And that's what I said!

This was the teaching of Jesus that Paul unfolded 1 Corinthians 2:14,

The natural man does not receive the gifts of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

The "natural man" in 1 Corinthians 2:14 is basically the same as "flesh and blood" in Matthew 16:17. "Flesh and blood" cannot reveal the true spiritual reality of Christ and the "natural man" cannot know the gifts of the Spirit of God.

Why not?

Because (as Paul says) apart from the Spirit of God we inevitably assess heavenly things as "foolish." Apart from the work of God in our hearts we don't like the humiliating implications of Christmas --

that we are under a curse and need a Savior,

that we are dirty and need Purifier,

that we are lost sheep and need a Shepherd,

that we are sick and need a Physician,

that we are rebels and need a Mediator and Reconciler.

The inevitable reflex of our natural antipathy toward this truth is blindness. Why can't flesh and blood see the light of the glory of God in Jesus Christ? Jesus said in John 3:19, "Light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil." We inevitably love darkness; that's why we can't see the light. No one is blind against his will. The blindness of fallen flesh and blood is simply this: fallen flesh and blood hates the light.

And this is the same error as has been refuted here.

Premise:
1Cor2:14 says "the unspiritual man cannot understand the things of God, therefore he CANNOT believe in Jesus UNTIL he's regenerated".

Refutation:
1Cor2:12 says "It is the RECEIVED Spirit through whom comes the "spiritual understanding of the things of God"!
The Spirit is received through BELIEF!

Thus --- verse 14 does NOT say that "only God's monergistic regeneration can allow someone TO believe in Jesus" --- it says, "you cannot understand the deeper things of God, until you believe in Jesus and receive the Spirit so that the Spirit (then!) reveals the deeper things!

How shall you prepare your heart this Christmas to receive Christ? Fix your gaze on him in his word. Look to Christ! Consider Jesus. And pray, beyond your own flesh and blood, that God would give you eyes to see and ears to hear that you might cry out with Peter, "You are the Christ the Son of the living God!"

Huh? If God REGENERATES (monergistically) us-elect, then why would we cry out to have "eyes/ears to recognize Jesus as the Messiah? That monergistic regeneration will ALREADY give us those eyes ears!

And if He does NOT regenerate someone, then (by Calvinism) it is impossible for them TO cry to God for "eyes/ears that recognize the Messiah"!

I'm afraid he does not recognize the glaring contradictions in his treatise...

 

[Ben johnson]

Ephesians 1:4-5

4For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5he[c] predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will

The "pleasure of His will" is that "all who see Jesus and believe may have eternal life".

"Chose us in Him before the creation of the world" reflects 2Thess2:13 --- "chosen from the beginning ...THROUGH FAITH..." (saving-faith is not instilled/imposed/monergistically-done-in-us-by-God --- saving faith is personal choice.)

Adoption as sons is by believing/receiving Jesus. Jn1:12
God disciplines His sons; if we REFUSE His discipline, then we are no longer sons. Heb12:7-9,23.

I noticed that you mentioned that Judas could have left, meaning that Judas didn't have to give Jesus up for 30 pieces of silver, correct?

No, that Jesus said is "the REST of you COULD leave just as JUDAS left." Disciples can be drawn away. Acts20:30.

I would have to disagree with this too. If Judas had not had given Jesus up for that money, Jesus would not hvae been caught, and Jesus wouldn't be the Saviour...

Are you saying that not many people knew who Jesus was? Didn't Jesus speak publicly, to CROWDS of people? Healing, feeding them (5,000, then 3,000), walking with them and teaching them? Why do you believe "without Judas no one would have been able to arrest/crucify Him?

because it's a prophecy.

A prophecy simply says "what's gonna happen".

God chose Judas to fulfill scripture, therefore to give Jesus up for 30 pieces of silver, to show that Jesus is the Messiah.

God did not choose Judas --- Judas chose his own path. The prophecy simply foretold what Judas was gonna do.

If this would not have happened, the scriptures would have been wrong, and we'd be believing in something false, but, by the grace of God, God ordained for this to happened, He predestined that Judas Iscariot give Jesus up for 30 pieces of silver, becuase that's what was prophecies centuries before.

Does God AUTHOR EVIL? Does God CAUSE people to sin? Then no one can say that "God predestined Judas to betray Jesus".

Judas decided that all by himself...

This verse doesn't mean what you think it means, obviously. God does want all men to be saved, because He loves all men. HOWEVER, it isn't His will that all men be saved...

Huh? God wants all men to be saved; but God doesn't WILL all men to be saved. So God's WILL and His WANT are different. He WANTS something but sovereignly RESISTS His wants so that He can WILL something different. Right?

... because if it was, then all men would be saved, right? God's will reigns over everything, you can't resist His will (Irresistable grace).

Do you know the difference between "will-desire", and "will-decree"? What God DECREES, will happen. What God DESIRES, may happen.

In 2Pet3:9 Peter says "God does not DECREE any to perish, but makes-room for all to repent". "Boulemai", and "choreo".
In 1Tim2:4 Paul says "God DESIRES all men to repent and to come to saving knowledge of the truth". "Thelo".
In Jn6:40 Jesus says, "This is the WILL/DESIRE of God, that ALL who see the Son and believe may have eternal life." "Thelema".

Romans 9:14-21

Rom9:6-24 is an "also-Gentiles" passage; and cannot be made into a "predestination sermon". Rom9:30-32 ruins the "predestined-to-faith/salvation" argument anyway...

14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."[f]

He has mercy on ALL (Rom11:32).

16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.

Contrast Jn1:12, with Jn1:13; verse 13 says "the begottenness is not of man's will nor of flesh... but of God" --- but verse 12 says "becoming His children" (becoming begotten) is by receiving/believing-in Jesus." Does that make sense? Though it is our FAITH that receives Jesus (and through Him we become begotten), the begottenness itself is none-of-us but all of Him-on-the-Cross.

17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."[g] 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

Please read Exodus10:1. Who hardened Pharaoh? GOD? Yes.

Read two verses earlier, 9:34 --- who hardened Pharaoh? Pharaoh hardened himSELF. Which is the truth? Both --- there is a Biblical literary device that ascribes to God what God has not personally done. (And conversely, the devil is charged with "blinding them so they could not believe", even though verses like Matt13:15 says "they closed their OWN eyes and ears so that they could not see/hear and turn to God and be healed."

19One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "[h] 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

Simply paraphrased, it says: "Who are you to complain, if God wants to save also the Gentiles?" See verse 24....

But for the arminian, this whole chapter would be disregarded, or taken out of context. The chapter means what it means. God is sovereign over all things, His will is sovereign. Do you know what is God's will, Ben Johnson?

Which will? "Boulema-decree", or "thelema-desire"?

"Let WHOSOEVER WILL ('o-thelos') take of the water of life FREELY". Rev22:17

10Not only that, but Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. 11Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who calls—she was told, "The older will serve the younger." 13Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

Jacob and Esau are two peoples. Please see Genesis 25:23.

And it's another application of "foreknown".

And Esau freely chose to forfeit his birthright, Jacob loved God.

I think that is all for today.

I hope I haven't offended you, by overturning your whole post. I have studied Scripture and find a perfect harmony throughout --- we are chosen to Him through our own faith; every last man and woman is given the choice TO believe --- a choice which lasts throughout their lives.

It's precisely as Deut30:15-20 says: "I have set before you life and death, prosperity and adversity, the blessing and the curse; so choose life by loving the Lord your God, by obeying His voice and holding fast to Him, by walking in His ways and keeping His commandments and statutes --- for this is your life and the length of your days."

 

[cygnusx1]

Jacob and Esau are two peoples. Please see Genesis 25:23.

so God rejected (hated ) a whole bunch of people . while Choosing (Loving) a whole bunch of other people ....................................... fine!

 

[Ben johnson]

How does the context deny that "God loves those who follow Him, and hates (or loves-less) those who do not"? How can we deny verses 9:30-32???

 

[cygnusx1]

How does the context deny that "God loves those who follow Him, and hates (or loves-less) those who do not"? How can we deny verses 9:30-32???

ben ,

you have completely ignored the context , they were chosen and rejected before they were born , before they had done anything good or bad ........ that is why Paul sees the natural objection arising , which your fallacious arguement doesn't even have.....

 

[Ben johnson]

The "natural objection" that Paul sees, is "how can God save GENTILES?" So when Paul says, "Who are you to answer back to God?" --- he is saying, "If God wants to save Gentiles (as WELL as Jews), who are you to complain? God has mercy on whom He has mercy; if that mercy extends to Gentiles, then accept it!"

You cannot make an "ALSO-GENTILES" passage into a "PREDESTINATION" proof. And verses 30-32 plainly say that "the Israelites failed BECAUSE they sought righteousness by WORKS rather than by faith".

...making their failing THEIR choice rather than God's predestination...

The context of "Jacob/Esau" is simply to show that TWO children of Abraham ar not naturally "children of the promise". Specifically, "Not (all) the children of the flesh (Jacob AND Esau) who are descendants, but children of the promise".

Children of the promise are those who believe. Jacob followed God (though he participated in tricking Abraham rather than trusting God), Esau did not. All of this was "foreknown". The application of the two as PEOPLES, simply says "those who follow God (Jacob's people) are children of the promise, those who do not (Esau's people) are not."

 

[LukeBritt]

That is one of the worst arguments I've ever seen from Romans 9...
Romans 9 is not an argument for the election of Gentiles...That wouldn't make any sense...

 

[Ben johnson]

Romans 9 is not an argument for the election of Gentiles...That wouldn't make any sense...

It certainly is.

"They are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; neither are they all children because they are Abraham's descendants... it is not the children of the flesh (Jews!) who are children of God, but children of the promise (Gentiles too!) who are regarded as descendants. ....He called us, not from Jews only, but ALSO from GENTILES." Rm9:6-8, 24

The context IS presenting "Gentiles also saved". THAT is the meaning of "who are you to answer back to God?" If God wants to save the Gentiles TOO, Paul is saying "don't question God".

And there is still that "pesky ending" of the chapter --- saying that "Israel did not arrive at righteousness, because they pursued it by WORKS rather than by faith". Sounds like 100% choice, and 0% predestination to me...

 

[LukeBritt]

The verses preceding v. 20 are talking about God's choice of Jacob rather than Esau, not that God wants to save Gentiles. You impose things upon the text.

 

[Ben johnson]

How does what I quoted just above in blue not plainly say "also-Gentiles"? How does, "Who are you to answer back to God", not say: "If God wants to also save the Gentiles, don't complain"?

 

[LukeBritt]

Are Jacob and Esau different races?