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How holy is the New Testament?

Ken Rank

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But is it from not questioning the authority around us that people have been tricked into thinking they were serving a Christian country with God on their side, when in fact they were serving kings? It's who the message comes through for me, enough people have died listening to men's interpretations of the New Testament. I just need to somehow see a reason to trust it.
Look, I don't question your conclusions Andrew. Some of your concerns are why there was a shift in how began to view things. I actually walked away from everything for a year, relaxed a little, and came back and went on an amazing journey that has led me to where I am now. I am not part of mainstream Christianity.... I have nothing against anyone... but there are just factors that we don't take into consideration when studying. We read in English, we define all words we see based on how they are used TODAY and not how they were used in the day when they were first chosen as translatable words. We don't take the time period culture into consideration... we don't become familiar with idioms and other abstract phraseology in use when the books were written... heck the idea that Jesus was Jewish (which does have an effect on context) is still a foreign thought to most Christians. And God forbid we take out the middle man and actually learn a little biblical Hebrew or something. :)
 
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victorinus

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How can we prove that the New Testament is to be relied upon for guidance,
you can't
-but-
you can show that the bible:
-has been around 2000 years
-it is accepted by 2 billion people
-it is the most influential book of all time
-without it you cannot possibly understand the world we live in
 
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RaymondG

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you can't
-but-
-it is accepted by 2 billion people
understand the world we live in

IS this a good point? The way is narrow and few there be that find it...... I'm steering cheer of any path with 2billion people on it. I'd be lucky to find one.
 
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RaymondG

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The scriptures tell you how to live your life Ted. I don't like being told what to do from a book that has a shady history. That's how I see it, maybe I'm just going to spend my life like a heretic, I don't know. Let's hope your right and I suddenly get a thirst for them, am I to presume I'm doomed if I don't?


What if the scriptures were a story of YOU? Would you trust it then? What if the Story of Jesus was talking about the path you must follow to eternal life? He did say to pick up your cross and follow him. Look in the mirror and hold your arms to the sides. there's your cross....when you were born......blood and water came pouring out.....now you are dead... Time to be resurrected... When you know the truth you will be set free. When you are born again, you will never taste Death.
 
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OzSpen

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Ok I don't want this question to cause any discourse between us all but it's a question many non believers ask.
How can we prove that the New Testament is to be relied upon for guidance, how can we be so sure in this day and age that we are receiving the correct message.

I've come into this topic late.

The answer is basic. Subject the NT to the same tests for reliability that you give to any historical book.

Military historian, C. Sanders, says there are 3 basic principles of checking the authenticity of historical writings (historiography). I’ll use the acronym, T.I.E.S., to help us remember them, giving Sanders' 3 principles and adding a fourth:

  • the Transmission test (sometimes called, the bibliographical test) — NOT biographical, but biblio = books; graphical = writing. That’s the “T”. What process has been used for the original documents to reach us today?
  • the Internal evidence test — that’s the ‘I” and reveals we are dealing with eyewitnesses or those who knew eyewitnesses.
  • the External evidence test — that’s the “E”, evidence outside the Bible for Jesus (Sanders 1952:143ff).
  • “S” is the Spirit of conviction from God's Holy Spirit.
The T.I.E.S. tests provide us with evidence for checking the reliability of the NT documents. The T.I.E. tests provide us with mechanisms for determining the accuracy of any historical document.

Further explanations are in my articles on the topic, starting with part 1: Can you trust the Bible? Part 1.

Oz

Works consulted

Sanders, C 1952. Introduction to Research in English Literary History. New York: MacMillan Company.
 
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geiroffenberg

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Ok I don't want this question to cause any discourse between us all but it's a question many non believers ask.
How can we prove that the New Testament is to be relied upon for guidance, how can we be so sure in this day and age that we are receiving the correct message.

the bible really only points to the gospel, which is really boiled down to "repent for the kingdom is at hand", and i dont believe any person would ever try this unless they were hungry for god because they were under a calling from god. And so for them, tis not a question whether you can trust the bible or not, they will repent out of hunger for god. They didnt have bibles in the first church yet they had a lot of spirit and they were more lead than we are today with all our bibles.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Ok I don't want this question to cause any discourse between us all but it's a question many non believers ask.
How can we prove that the New Testament is to be relied upon for guidance, how can we be so sure in this day and age that we are receiving the correct message.

That which is set apart, consecrated, for the express purposes of God is holy. So Scripture, absolutely, is holy.

The New Testament consists of those writings which have been, since nearly the earliest days of the Church, received for the good purpose of delivering to us the saving message of the Gospel and exhorting us to the service of Christ, and to look upon Christ for our hope and our salvation.

Of these books we can, historically, separate them into two categories:

1. Homolegoumena, that is, the commonly or universally accepted writings.

2. Antilegomena, that is, the disputed writings.

The Homolegoumena consists of the four Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John; the Acts of the Apostles, the thirteen epistles of St. Paul the Apostle, the first epistle of St. Peter, and the first epistle of St. John.

The Antilegomena consists of the second epistle of St. Peter, the second and third epistles of St. John, the epistle of St. Jude, the epistle to the Hebrews, the Apocalypse of St. John (also known as the Revelation), the epistle of Barnabas, the Shepherd of Hermas, the epistle of St. Clement, the Didache (i.e. the Teaching of the Twelve), and the Apocalypse of St. Peter.

Consider the Muratorian Fragment, dated to around 200 AD, so as to avoid clogging this post with a lengthy copy-and-paste, one can read it online here.

The Muratorian Fragment is just one example of what was a common discussion among early Christians.

It is important to keep in mind that when we talk of disagreements and disputes over the New Testament Canon in the ancient Church, we are talking specifically of these books known as Antilegomena, heretical works such as the various Gnostic "gospels" and fanciful, romances such as the Proto-gospels of James and Thomas which purport to give accounts of Jesus' infancy or childhood are not included. Heretical works were never accepted, and such fanciful romances were nothing more than an early form of religious fan-fiction.

When we encounter, in the writings of the fathers, statements concerning what was to be "read in the churches" it does not refer to what individual Christians may read on their own private time, it refers to what was to be read publicly as part of Christian worship, that is, part of the liturgical Scripture readings (what we know of as lectionary readings today). Scripture readings formed an essential component of Christian worship, it was one of several elements of liturgy which is taken directly from the liturgical worship of Judaism of the first century (e.g. Luke 4:16-20).

It is precisely this liturgical element that is essential and definitive in the formation of the Christian Biblical Canon, including the New Testament. The Canon developed and was formed not by top-down decisions by councils or individual bishops, but bottom-up by the shared worship of the people of God in the churches across the known world. What was received, shared, common, and confessed. The opinions and thoughts of well-respected bishops--such as St. Athanasius the Great of Alexandria, Defender of Orthodoxy--as well as the statements of regional synods played a role, these were chiefly reflections of the already established practices in the churches.

Ultimately we must either, in faith, accept that God, in His providential mercy, has not allowed His Church to deviate so strongly from the truth and so we can, indeed, trust in the Scriptures which we have received having been passed down to us by the tradition, teaching, and faithfulness of Christ's saints; or we are lost in a sea of great confusion.

I believe that, as a Christian, the former is the only acceptable position. Not because I believe the Christian Church is inerrant or incontrovertible, but because I believe in the faithfulness of God and His promises. And therefore I receive Holy and Sacred Scripture as, indeed, the sacred, inspired, and authoritative written word of God, for the good and sake of His Church, to receive and hear the Living and Risen Christ Jesus, our Lord, who is contained in all their pages, that I might be comforted with His Gospel, having faith, hope, and salvation in the God who so graciously meets us in Him.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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John Hyperspace

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Ok I don't want this question to cause any discourse between us all but it's a question many non believers ask.
How can we prove that the New Testament is to be relied upon for guidance, how can we be so sure in this day and age that we are receiving the correct message.

This is depending on, what message are we receiving? The message I'm receiving is axiomatically true: a message of self-sacrifice and love towards others that generates peace and good will. A message of putting to death carnality of understanding, and, resurrecting spiritual understanding: to perceive beyond the temporal things and grasp the eternal things: the right understanding of concepts of love, mercy, grace, forgiveness, justice, and such which allow for a functioning unit of many members to abide in harmonious relationships toward one another. So the question becomes something like "How do we prove that harmony is more productive and peaceful than disharmony?" which I believe is self-evident.
 
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miamited

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Hey Ted, Im curious. Who is God to you? And where is he?

Hi raymond,

I'm not exactly sure what you're asking as to 'who' God is to me. He is God. He is known by me as He has revealed Himself to me through His written testimony of Himself. Where is He? He is in the place that we call 'heaven'. According to the Revelation, it is a great place of colors and crystal and looks like a sea of glass laid out before a great throne. He who sits upon that throne is God. However, also according to His testimony, the day is coming when His dwelling place will be upon the earth.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted
 
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RaymondG

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Hi raymond,

I'm not exactly sure what you're asking as to 'who' God is to me. He is God. He is known by me as He has revealed Himself to me through His written testimony of Himself. Where is He? He is in the place that we call 'heaven'. According to the Revelation, it is a great place of colors and crystal and looks like a sea of glass laid out before a great throne. He who sits upon that throne is God. However, also according to His testimony, the day is coming when His dwelling place will be upon the earth.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted
Thanks for the reply. My God continue to reveal Himself you in ways you can understand and may your understanding increase as you grow in God.
 
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dqhall

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Ok I don't want this question to cause any discourse between us all but it's a question many non believers ask.
How can we prove that the New Testament is to be relied upon for guidance, how can we be so sure in this day and age that we are receiving the correct message.
Some people will study the NT and their lives will be changed for the better. There are numerous other study guides and Christian testimonies outside the NT that are worth reading. Finding people who can provide reliable testimony about God and Christ is important. The Gospel message has turned some people from their sin and loss to being valued members of the community.
 
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RaymondG

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about 5 billion are doing just that
Im steering clear of the 5 billion as well. The way is straight and narrow.....few find it.

The way is too narrow to try to bring others along. We are walking on a tight rope to heaven. The minute we turn around to look at someone else, we fall. The minute we try to bring someone next to us to follow our path, we both fall....
 
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~Anastasia~

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What a different approach. In our Church there is a saying - we are saved all together, we are condemned alone.

It means we pray for each other, help each other, learn from each other, develop patience by being challenged by one another, bear one another's burdens, and so much more. We are, after all, the BODY ... can the eye say it has no need of the hand?
 
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PanDeVida

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Ok I don't want this question to cause any discourse between us all but it's a question many non believers ask.
How can we prove that the New Testament is to be relied upon for guidance, how can we be so sure in this day and age that we are receiving the correct message.

Andrew,

"How can we prove that the New Testament is to be relied upon for guidance", "how can we be so sure in this day and age that we are receiving the correct message".

Andrew, good question with an easy answer. The answer is go back and read how the bible was compiled by the early Church Fathers, who were Catholics, when they compiled the new Testament, and what interpretations they taught then, is still what is taught now, by the Catholic Church. Amen AMEN
 
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RaymondG

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What a different approach. In our Church there is a saying - we are saved all together, we are condemned alone.

It means we pray for each other, help each other, learn from each other, develop patience by being challenged by one another, bear one another's burdens, and so much more. We are, after all, the BODY ... can the eye say it has no need of the hand?

In my church....There is only God. You see, God does not dwell in Building made by hands. Know ye not that you body is the temple of the holy spirit? Im all about cleaning my temple before i even think telling you what is wrong with yours.

There will come a time when we will stop worshiping with our hands and in the synagogues and in the holy city.......Then we will worship him in spirit and in truth for the father seeketh such. Man looks at the outer...try to clean the outside.....But God only sees the heart.

Now should we be selfish and forget about everyone and prepare to live in a mansion in the sky alone? Nay! For there is no greater help you can give others than to let them SEE your Light Shine......If i say anymore, i might feel like passing around an offerene plate... so ill stop here.
 
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~Anastasia~

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:)

Hello, Raymond. :) And by the way, welcome to CF! I see you're fairly new, and I hope that you're being blessed here, as well as being a blessing. :)

In my church....There is only God. You see, God does not dwell in Building made by hands. Know ye not that you body is the temple of the holy spirit? Im all about cleaning my temple before i even think telling you what is wrong with yours.

Indeed. :) No arguments there, really. God dwells in each of us, and our first main occupation is the purification of ourselves.

I was speaking of course of believers assembling together, as we are commanded to do. But I figure you probably knew that. :)

I am thankful for all the benefits of being a part of a community of believers. :)

There will come a time when we will stop worshiping with our hands and in the synagogues and in the holy city.......Then we will worship him in spirit and in truth for the father seeketh such.

I certainly agree that we should cultivate an attitude of worship in everything we do, in all of our lives. :)

Man looks at the outer...try to clean the outside.....But God only sees the heart.

I agree that it is our hearts God is concerned with. It is the cultivation of our own hearts we are concerned with as well. :)

Now should we be selfish and forget about everyone and prepare to live in a mansion in the sky alone? Nay! For there is no greater help you can give others than to let them SEE your Light Shine......

Absolutely - would that we all could be so transformed into the likeness of Christ that we draw men to Him, before even speaking a word. :)


If i say anymore, i might feel like passing around an offerene plate... so ill stop here.

LOL, OK! Very pleased to "meet" you, and once again, welcome to CF. :)
 
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2 know him

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Ok I don't want this question to cause any discourse between us all but it's a question many non believers ask.
How can we prove that the New Testament is to be relied upon for guidance, how can we be so sure in this day and age that we are receiving the correct message.


Some is good and some bad; stick to the words in red and avoid the rest, especially Paul: who contradicted Jesus in so many ways.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Im steering clear of the 5 billion as well.

Let's see there are 7 billion people on the planet.
2 billion of those are Christian.
5 billion are not Christian.

You're either part of the 2 billion, or part of the 5 billion. The only other alternative is that you don't exist. And I suspect that you aren't merely a hallucination.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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