How far is too far?

[bubuchan]

So I have this friend... and we're both single, we're both into the same things, etc. We like each other. We're VERY attracted to each other, but we definitely know how to refrain... so far.

The only problem is within me, I suppose. I am a recent convert to Christianity, and I have vowed to not have sex before marriage which I will strongly abide to. However... I am by no means innocent in what I have done sexually. I am not a virgin. I don't know if I will be/have been forgiven for the things I have done, but I can certainly believe. In fact I don't even know how he feels about me and my experiences with sex.

He is a virgin. And I respect that. I'm afraid that if the time comes we enter into a relationship, that I'm going to take things too far... I don't think it's appropriate to kiss him, or even touch him at this stage. But I'm not sure. Would cuddling/hugging constitute as .. Ok? What do people in a relationship do to show affection without sinning? I'm SO afraid of making him uncomfortable, or making a move that is unacceptable... Please, help me out.

I have talked to him a few times about this, and he said before he enters into a relationship with anyone he will go into an extended period of prayer and contemplation, and the relationship then would require no physical romantic contact until engagement or any other step above regular boyfriend/girlfriend status, whatever that is. I'm OK with that, because I think it's good to have boundaries and it will keep either of us from sinning. But yeah. I kinda just want to know what's acceptable and not acceptable.

If you can help, I'd very much appreciate it. Thanks

 

[desmalia]

This is a really great post. I think you both really have your heads on strait about this, and that is so wonderful to read!

And you are right to be so cautious. That line must be drawn on an individual basis... to a point. For some, kissing is not an option, for some even holding hands is too far. Basically anything that evokes lustful feelings is too far. It sounds like your friend has the right idea about a dating relationship. But it might also be good to discuss what he feels is permissible once engaged. That can be a tricky time for Christian couples because that extra commitment can cause you to feel you can move that line a little, and then a little more, and then a little more, etc.. And that can lead to a lot of problems. Actually that is a very good reason for short engagements. Take your time dating and getting to know each other. But once you've decided to make that commitment, do it sooner than later.

Here is a piece on the subject that I believe makes a lot of sense.

The question isn't how far can I go and get away with it, the question is how can I be sanctified, separated from sin and holy unto God, that's the question...that's the question. How can I conduct my physical relationships so that I am holy which means separated from sin? And as you begin to play with the emotions that God has designed to lead to consummation and intercourse, you begin to allow your mind to move in to the area of thinking about that, you are in sin because if a man in his mind commits adultery, God's side, he's committed it, right? If woman commits it in the mind, it's been committed before God because He sees the mind. You have to stop short of the impure thought, the impure motive, the lustful passion. And we'll say more about that next week, show you how passion works. The question isn't how far can I go and still be okay, the question is how can I be holy, how can I be utterly separated from sin, how can I be totally pure, completely holy unto God, pleasing Him, excelling still more? How can I excel still more? How can I be more excellent? Not how can I drift a little bit the other way and just get on the edge?

The entire sermon is here:
http://www.biblebb.com/files/mac/52-14.htm

 

[Bootstrap]

Hi Bubuchan,

It's great that you're seriously seeking what's right in your relationship!

First off, if you ask God to forgive you, and you've seriously repented, he has. You may still need to work out some things in your own feelings, but God has forgiven you.

I think you'll find some range of opinion among Christians about what is too far. Let me try to outline some views I hear regularly:

A. Not even first base. No real passion. No kissing on the lips or lying close to each other. This is the approach popularized in the book "I Kissed Dating Good-Bye".

1. First base. Lots of cuddling and touching, but no real passion.

2. Second base. Keep the clothes on, hands outside the clothes, passionate kissing is fine.

3. Third base.

4. All the way.

The Bible does not give firm guidelines on this - dating and marriage and all that were done quite differently then, and it's hard to apply the Bible in great detail to modern dating.

My personal guidelines are based on two things: (1) sex belongs in marriage, (2) in modern America, it often seems wise to have some experience exploring and understanding your chemistry and sexual feelings before marriage.

So for me, #4 is definitely not OK, and I don't really see a whole lot of distance between #3 and #4, so I'm not comfortable with that either.

I'm a big fan of #2. I can't see how #1 or #A are enough to really know some of the things I think people should know before they get married.

As you can see, there's a lot of subjectivity in the way I see this stuff. And others will disagree with me - probably as soon as I post this ;->

Blessings to you both!

Jonathan

 

[bubuchan]

Thank you so much for posting! That excerpt does make a lot of sense. It demonstrates a new way of thinking about our relationship, and perhaps that is the way my friend has been thinking all along and I am just now realizing it.

I think time will tell, with us. And I do think I will have to discuss it with him a bit more... I believe my issue is also with the idea that it's entirely possible to be affectionate towards each other without the intention of taking it any further than that, but how would I make that clear to him? What actually is the difference between showing love (more than mere friendship) and acting lustfully? I often hear, and I can see it in this sermon excerpt, that cuddling, holding hands, stroking of the hair, or whatever, will cause impure thoughts and might lead you to doing something more and therefore should be avoided for it is sin. But what if you are doing it with the intention of not going any further?

If God knows your intentions are good, how does your partner? Do you have to tell them every time? Lol. "I'm not trying to sex you up..." That would be silly.

All right, enough of that.

 

[desmalia]

Thank you so much for posting! That excerpt does make a lot of sense. It demonstrates a new way of thinking about our relationship, and perhaps that is the way my friend has been thinking all along and I am just now realizing it.

I think time will tell, with us. And I do think I will have to discuss it with him a bit more... I believe my issue is also with the idea that it's entirely possible to be affectionate towards each other without the intention of taking it any further than that, but how would I make that clear to him? What actually is the difference between showing love (more than mere friendship) and acting lustfully? I often hear, and I can see it in this sermon excerpt, that cuddling, holding hands, stroking of the hair, or whatever, will cause impure thoughts and might lead you to doing something more and therefore should be avoided for it is sin. But what if you are doing it with the intention of not going any further?

If God knows your intentions are good, how does your partner? Do you have to tell them every time? Lol. "I'm not trying to sex you up..." That would be silly.

All right, enough of that.

I'm glad you liked the article. I found it helpful when I was dating too.

I understand your confusion with the issue. It's not as cut and dry as so many others, is it? One really good rule of thumb I've heard is to think about what things you would do if your parents were in the room with you. Anything that falls under that category should be OK. In fact, it's a good idea not to spend huge amounts of time alone where you may become vulnerable to temptation. Long, personal talks can be had just as well on a walk through the park or a quiet table at a café.

It's also important to remember how easy it is to start out with the best of intentions, but suddenly be caught up in stronger feelings than you anticipated. And be sensitive to what may lead him into temptation even when you're OK. Sometimes even the most innocent of cuddles can lead someone to stronger feelings. The two of you will have to figure out where to draw that line so that you can keep yourselves and each other from falling into lust. Better to be safe than sorry! You won't ever regret being too strict about affection before you're married. But you will regret it if you are too lax and fall into sin.

 

[chicacanella]

Not that I should be the authority on this subject, but I think I do know enough to kind of shed some insight. The only thing is, after you know what is right how can you keep yourself from messing up? But you won't have that problem.

Okay, you asked about "that cuddling, holding hands, stroking of the hair," I believe that it is nothing wrong with stroking of the hair if that is all that you are doing. It's when you combine all these things together that it becomes a problem and leads to temptation. You could walk in the mall together holding hands, no big temptation or any at all, at least forme. You can cuddle while watching a movie or he can stroke your hair while watching a movie. But when you introduce kissing and then the looking into the eyes element that is when it may become hard for most people.

So, I think you would have to separate the ways you show your affection and not put them all together at once because there would be too much metal, emotional and phsical stimulation.

And I heard someone say also, if Jesus was standing in the room with you, would you feel comfortable doing X, Y, and Z. Or would you do them infront of your parents or other people?

 

[bubuchan]

Whew.
Thank you guys. I think I'll be a lot better off now than before.

 

[IndomitableAmy]

I've never understood the argument of "if so-and-so was in the room." I mean, I'd feel comfortable doing more in public than I would with my parents in the room with me because I know the comfort-level of my parents is incredibly low when it comes to their children. I mean, what they might go "Aw" to if strangers did it is not something that would be acceptable to them if I did it in front of them (but they did encourage me to do such out of their sight.) The "with Jesus watching" seems silly to me because, well, isn't God supposed to be vigilant altogether? I mean, God sees me in a bout of gastrointestinal illness, huh? And I'd try very hard to see that no one else does. Sigh. Anyway..

I'd say respect his boundaries. Learn the reasons, maybe.. like if he's afraid to hold hands (or anything low-level) because he thinks it'd invariable lead to more, you can tell him you don't think that's necessarily the case, but you respect him thinking that and respect his boundaries. (Thing is, if someone does think a little thing will quickly lead to progressively bigger things, it's likely to become a self-fulfilling prophecy if they do something small because they've been trained that that's how it goes.)

 

[Bootstrap]

In fact I don't even know how he feels about me and my experiences with sex.

Nobody addressed this before, but I should mention that at least for some guys, it can be nice to know that you have some idea what sex is about, and that you like it, even if you're waiting for marriage.

He is a virgin. And I respect that. I'm afraid that if the time comes we enter into a relationship, that I'm going to take things too far... I don't think it's appropriate to kiss him, or even touch him at this stage. But I'm not sure. Would cuddling/hugging constitute as .. Ok? What do people in a relationship do to show affection without sinning? I'm SO afraid of making him uncomfortable, or making a move that is unacceptable... Please, help me out.

A lot of this may depend on him. His boundaries may be more narrow than some other people's, and narrower than what would be clearly sinful, but if it is sinful for him, then it is sinful. You've always got to respect the other's boundaries when it comes to righteousness.

I have talked to him a few times about this, and he said before he enters into a relationship with anyone he will go into an extended period of prayer and contemplation, and the relationship then would require no physical romantic contact until engagement or any other step above regular boyfriend/girlfriend status, whatever that is. I'm OK with that, because I think it's good to have boundaries and it will keep either of us from sinning. But yeah. I kinda just want to know what's acceptable and not acceptable.

And if the boundaries are narrower than they need to be, that's OK too.

Everyone faces these questions. And struggling with these questions is a great opportunity to learn about your character and his.

Jonathan

 

[katautumn]

I think, perhaps, you have put the cart before the horse and are stressing yourself out about him judging your sexual past before you even know whether or not a romantic relationship will result from your friendship.

I say stick with your plan for yourself and don't stress so much about what he will think about you. I wouldn't even bother talking about intimacy boundaries at this point, as the two of you are just friends.

 

[Bootstrap]

I think, perhaps, you have put the cart before the horse and are stressing yourself out about him judging your sexual past before you even know whether or not a romantic relationship will result from your friendship.

I say stick with your plan for yourself and don't stress so much about what he will think about you. I wouldn't even bother talking about intimacy boundaries at this point, as the two of you are just friends.

Quoted for Truth.

Jonathan

 

[Blank123]

talk to him first before assuming a romantic relationship and any concerns arising from that such as what he may or may not think about your past.

but addressing your other concern on how far is too far, the line moves for different Christians. some choose to abstain from even hugging, handholding, or quick kisses before marriage. Some are able to be more affectionate with each other without temptation to go further than that. I know for me i can kiss and cuddle without temptation to go further because for me its not about wanting to have sex with him, its about being affectionate. At the same time affection should not over ride the need to be sensitive to one another, if he decides we're being too affectionate i don't push it. The last thing i want is to be a stumbling block to him.

Basically wherever the line is that makes you (or him) want to go further than simply being affectionate with one another is where you should stop.

 

[bubuchan]

I think, perhaps, you have put the cart before the horse and are stressing yourself out about him judging your sexual past before you even know whether or not a romantic relationship will result from your friendship.

I say stick with your plan for yourself and don't stress so much about what he will think about you. I wouldn't even bother talking about intimacy boundaries at this point, as the two of you are just friends.

You're right. I don't even know if he wants to take this further. I'm guessing he... might? because we've been hanging out an awful lot, and late at night. Also, I told him about how I feel a few months ago when we took a huge long walk on the beach... He said he felt mutual attraction definitely, but he said something like... "I may have 'dates' with friends to determine whether or not I could see myself with them in a long term relationship, but this is only to get to know them better and make a more informed decision. And I see my standing with you like this..." Since that day my feelings for him have grown even stronger.

But I still think you're right -- I'll just... chill out. Lol. I'm pretty sure if we have another late night out together, the subject will come up and I'll know what he really feels. I can hope, at least.

And I think I've got the boundaries thing figured out, thanks to all of you.

 

[desmalia]

talk to him first before assuming a romantic relationship and any concerns arising from that such as what he may or may not think about your past.

I agree. It is a good idea to discuss it before you get deep into a relationship. He may need a little time to process the information, so you will want to be prepared to give him that time and space to work through it. But it certainly can be done. Also, if he knows you're new to the faith, he probably suspects your past would be different than his anyway, so it most likely won't come as any shock to him.

 

[bubuchan]

I agree. It is a good idea to discuss it before you get deep into a relationship. He may need a little time to process the information, so you will want to be prepared to give him that time and space to work through it. But it certainly can be done. Also, if he knows you're new to the faith, he probably suspects your past would be different than his anyway, so it most likely won't come as any shock to him.

Yes, I'm hoping he can understand that. And I also hope he can trust that I really am truthful when I say I've changed and I want to do what's best; not do whatever I can to use him, in continuation of how I've always been with relationships. I've realized that my habits/sexual vices need to stop. I truly believe in taking on a different approach, waiting until marriage, and in the meantime respecting what he stands for and strengthening what I stand for.

 

[desmalia]

Yes, I'm hoping he can understand that. And I also hope he can trust that I really am truthful when I say I've changed and I want to do what's best; not do whatever I can to use him, in continuation of how I've always been with relationships. I've realized that my habits/sexual vices need to stop. I truly believe in taking on a different approach, waiting until marriage, and in the meantime respecting what he stands for and strengthening what I stand for.

 

[dobieman0488]

i personally go by if it tempts you to go further, don't do it, or stop what you're doing, boundaries are different for everyone, there's no set rule. sex before marriage is obviously out, but it's a gray area afterwards, don't do anything you aren't comfortable with, and stick to your boundaries, i personally think kissing/cuddling is fine, after that, it gets hazy.

 

[chris414]

i'll just go ahead and put my 10 cents on the table even though my experience seems to be somewhat different to others. I agree 100% that sex before marriage is out, and there are some other things that i am keeping for marriage just because i want to, but i have found that in my current relationship (1 year old) going further has considerably lessened temptation and lustful thoughts. Basic principle: you want something a lot more if you cant have it.

 

[rppearso]

talk to him first before assuming a romantic relationship and any concerns arising from that such as what he may or may not think about your past.

but addressing your other concern on how far is too far, the line moves for different Christians. some choose to abstain from even hugging, handholding, or quick kisses before marriage. Some are able to be more affectionate with each other without temptation to go further than that. I know for me i can kiss and cuddle without temptation to go further because for me its not about wanting to have sex with him, its about being affectionate. At the same time affection should not over ride the need to be sensitive to one another, if he decides we're being too affectionate i don't push it. The last thing i want is to be a stumbling block to him.

Basically wherever the line is that makes you (or him) want to go further than simply being affectionate with one another is where you should stop.

How would you feel if any sort of physical touch or even being in close proximity caused temptation in him, would that be ok wit you?

 

[Blank123]

How would you feel if any sort of physical touch or even being in close proximity caused temptation in him, would that be ok wit you?

Is there a point to asking this question besides starting a debate about physical intimacy/affection before marriage? because honestly i have no interest in hijacking this thread to beat a dead horse.