How exactly was John the Baptist somehow Elijah????

ronshua said:

Greetings DennisTate , I haven't a clue who your Pastor Rick Joyner is . I'll wager and don't ,
he's a book writing jessy . Buying & selling Darbyism wholesale .
That post was in July . Do you know what I posted ?
Peace .

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This topic ties in nicely with this other thread going on in another forum:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7738818/

Could King David be raised up for the Jews decades before second coming of Jesus?
Is King David raised up for the Jewish people a significant amount of time previous to when the feet of Messiah stand on the Mt. of Olives in fulfillment of Zechariah chapter 14?

It is pretty obvious that Jesus/Yahushua expects us to believe in the specific fulfillment of the words of the prophets.

"

Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:"

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(Luke 24:25)

The Prophet Jeremiah stated clearly that David would be raised up for the Jews.

"But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them."

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(Jeremiah 30:9)

It is relevant that Jesus/Yahushua clearly identified John the Baptist as a modern Elijah for his time period.

"

And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?
And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not,....
Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist."

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(Matthew 17:10-13)

Could a young, or perhaps not so young Jewish guy be the person who will be raised up for the nation of Israel as another King David much as John the Baptist was another Elijah?

Isaiah speaks about a King Cyrus type of person who was instrumental in assisting the Jewish people to rebuild the second temple to which Jesus/Yahushua came. King Cyrus was a Gentile or possibly a member of the lost tribes of Israel, and did not actually know the God of Abraham very well at all.

"

Thus saith the LORD to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him; and I will loose the loins of kings, to open before him the two leaved gates; and the gates shall not be shut;
I will go before thee, and make the crooked places straight: I will break in pieces the gates of brass, and cut in sunder the bars of iron:
And I will give thee the treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places, that thou mayest know that I, the LORD, which call [thee] by thy name, [am] the God of Israel.
For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.
I [am] the LORD, and [there is] none else, [there is] no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:"

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(Isaiah 45:1-5)

Although this King Cyrus person sounds somewhat like Jesus/Yahushua in some important ways the fact that it is mentioned that this person does not know God, proves to me that this is not Rabbi Jesus/Yahushua who in my opinion knew HaShem better than anybody else ever did.

Isaiah 66:5 ¶

Hear the word of the LORD, ye that tremble at his word; Your brethren that hated you, that cast you out for my name's sake, said, Let the LORD be glorified: but he shall appear to your joy, and they shall be ashamed."A voice of noise from the city, a voice from the temple, a voice of the LORD that rendereth recompence to his enemies.

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" (Isaiah 66:6)

This verse seems to indicate that when the Messiah comes to the earth, there is a functioning temple, I assume on the Temple Mount!? It seems that enemies, typified by the historical Antiochus, have gained control of the temple. In this thoroughly left wing earth this is not so hard to imagine. These enemies apparently cause the sacrifices to cease after being offered for 42 months and apparently kick the Levites off the Temple Mount when they cause the sacrifices to cease?!?!

"

Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until [the time] come when ye shall say, Blessed [is] he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

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" (Luke 13:35)

Another valid possible way of looking at this verse, because scriptures seldom have one plain simple meaning that even a child could figure out, is that we Christians have a house that is pretty desolate and we may well not see the complete fulfillment of the Messianic kingdom until AFTER the Jewish people are offering sacrifices on their Temple Mount Complex.

I certainly am in no position to rule out a soon to be rapture that may even somehow fulfill Rosh ha Shanah or one of the other Jewish festivals but I tend to suspect from these verses that the full fledged Messianic kingdom may not be ushered in until we Christians admit that the prophet Ezekiel, came in the name of the Lord, and his words are inspired and blessed.

Sooner or later the Jewish people will fulfill each and every word given in Ezekiel chapters 40 to 48 regarding their Jerusalem Third or perhaps Fourth Temple Mount Complex.

I read My Descent Into Death by former atheist Howard Storm who died, went to hell, prayed and sang hymns while there, met Jesus/Yahushua, got saved, and was sent back to finish his lifetime. He studied and became a pastor. His idea of the kingdom of God being set up over two centuries would fit amazing well with the idea of the Jews building and finishing and offering sacrifices in a Jerusalem Temple Mount Complex previous to the time when the will of God is done fully on this earth!?

My point is that we had better be careful that we are NOT against the Jews in their efforts to rebuild their temple especially if we will not see the feet of Messiah on the Mt. of Olives, until after they fulfill many of the prophecies given to them. Actually, I will go further than this, I believe that Christians who believe in the inspiration of every word given through Ezekiel will assist the Jewish people in at least some capacity to accomplish the things that they must do, that we simply would have no clue how to accomplish!

Howard's light being friends told him more about the new world to come. According to them, God wished to usher in the kingdom within the next two hundred years. In order to do so, God had rescinded some of the free will given to creatures, in favor of more divine control over human events. This new world order, according to Howard, will resemble some near-death descriptions of heaven. People will live in such peace and harmony and love that communication will be telepathic, travel instantaneous and the need for clothing and shelter eliminated. The lion will indeed lie down with the lamb.]

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(Howard Storm)
.near-death.com/experiences/storm03.html

Lulav said:

I can't figure out where you were going with this?

What is this major clue you suspected? That maybe since Jacob saw angels coming and going at this place that people that died could do the same thing, Elijah not dying though but being taken to heaven, therefore he came back from heaven???

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I have been wondering for a long long time if in fact the huma spirit/soul may perhaps have somewhat similar but vastly greater capabilities than DVD and/or computer stick capabilities in that several films......produced by completely different studios......could in fact be recorded on the same DVD and or stick??????!!!!

Jer 30:24 The fierce anger of the LORD shall not return, until he have done [it], and until he have performed the intents of his heart: in the latter days ye shall consider it.
Jer 23:20 The anger of the LORD shall not return, until he have executed, and till he have performed the thoughts of his heart: in the latter days ye shall consider it perfectly.

ronshua said:

Greetings DennisTate , I haven't a clue who your Pastor Rick Joyner is . I'll wager and don't ,
he's a book writing jessy . Buying & selling Darbyism wholesale .
That post was in July . Do you know what I posted ?
Peace .

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Ronshua......what do you think of a homeless man Angelo being a knock on the door of the church?

Sorry....but you will need to read most of the first couple of posts here to get the context!


http://www.christianforums.com/t7653651/

Has God called some of us to be poor, sick, no arms or legs and persecuted???

Gottservant said:

I can't tell you enough how deeply your post impacted me. The Lord used it to answer a deep rooted question I have had about the nature of my being and I am extremely grateful that you were willing to be innocent enough to ask the questions you asked in this post. Be forever blessed, that your innocence live on through the Ages.

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Thank you immensely Gottservant!!!!

Since I began to study NDE accounts back in 1990 I see a depth of meaning in scriptures that was unavailable to me back in 1988 when I believed so firmly in "soul sleep."

To my thinking.......it is a wonderful thing to find out that people who we once considered to be our theological opponents..........were at the minimum fifty percent......maybe sixty percent......maybe even eighty or ninety percent correct on ideas that I used to be so sure contradicted some passages of the Bible..........that I completely misunderstood at that time!!!!!!!

ContraMundum said:

No, we don't believe that.

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True... I do not believe that John the Baptist was somehow "possessed" by the spirit / soul of John the Baptist..... I suspect a duplicate copy of a part of Elijah's soul was used to record the identity, personality and memories of John the Baptist... as well as given him a subconscious tendency to be very dedicated to G-d!!!!

ronshua said:

Greetings DennisTate , read the verse again , it will answer your question . Here it is in the Young's Literal Translation .

10 And his disciples questioned him, saying, `Why then do the scribes say that Elijah it behoveth to come first?'
11 And Jesus answering said to them, `Elijah doth indeed come first, and shall restore all things,
12 and I say to you -- Elijah did already come, and they did not know him, but did with him whatever they would, so also the Son of Man is about to suffer by them.'
13 Then understood the disciples that concerning John the Baptist he spake to them

Just as our Anointed is FULL of The Spirit of YAHweh , John the Baptist was FULL of The Spirit of Elijah , by The Spirit .

John 14
8 Philip saith to him, `Sir, shew to us the Father, and it is enough for us;'
9 Jesus saith to him, `So long time am I with you, and thou hast not known me, Philip? he who hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how dost thou say, Shew to us the Father?


Peace .

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Ronshua..... when you pass on....... and go to heaven...... would you allow Messiah Yeshua/Jesus to make a duplicate of your memories, identity and personality..... if Yeshua/Jesus and/or The Father and/or The Holy Spirit had any use in mind for a duplicate copy of your memories and identity and personality?

Gottservant said:

I can't tell you enough how deeply your post impacted me. The Lord used it to answer a deep rooted question I have had about the nature of my being and I am extremely grateful that you were willing to be innocent enough to ask the questions you asked in this post. Be forever blessed, that your innocence live on through the Ages.

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I am convinced that at this moment.... both John the Baptist.... as well as Elijah.... are in heaven.... they have total individuality and a separate personality and set of memories from each other..... as a matter of fact I am reading a book "Heaven is for Real" by Colton Burpo and his dad who had a brush with death when he was not yet four years of age... He was shown Messiah Jesus/Yeshua with John the Baptist and King David and Samson and Mary his mother and others.... there in heaven.... I am sure that Elijah is a separate person in heaven from John the Baptist....... but... that does not rule out the possibility that a copy of Elijah's memories/personality might not have played some sort of role in the subconscious thoughts of John the Baptist... psychologists are finding out amazing things about the human subconscious mind and its capabilities.


How can a child of three or four sit down to a piano and play like a pro?

daq said:

Haha, that's just great, and how many of your favorite "spirit minded" scholars have understood the following? Where have you ever seen what follows in any of your commentaries? And yet the truth is plain as day if one will pay close attention to a couple of childlike basic words such as "me" and "you" which should normally not be too much to ask of people with PhD's behind their names. All of your so-called men of stature, all of the men of renown, all of the well respected commentators who have written commentaries concerning the following are in error, at least every one of them I have ever read. Note the final underlined statement in the following Matthew passage:

Matthew 11:7-10 KJV
7. And as they departed, Jesus began to say unto the multitudes concerning John, What went ye out into the wilderness to see? A reed shaken with the wind?
8. But what went ye out for to see? A man clothed in soft raiment? behold, they that wear soft clothing are in kings' houses.
9. But what went ye out for to see? A prophet? yea, I say unto you, and more than a prophet.
10. For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.

Where exactly is the underlined statement above written? If one were to consult most of the popular commentaries it would state that this quote is derived from Malachi 3:1, however, such is clearly not the case:

Malachi 3:1 KJV
1. Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the Lord of hosts.

The statements are not the same. If however one looks at the Septuagint he or she may find the exact quote from where this passage is taken. Surely your "non-carnal minded" scholars would have known to check the Septuagint version of Torah when they noticed the discrepancy above correct? Or perhaps none of them have ever noticed it? Nah, that couldn't possibly be the case eh? Why then do they all misdirect the statement of Yeshua concerning Yochanan? Why do they all say Yeshua is quoting from the Malachi passage when it is clearly not the correct passage?

Matthew 11:10 Westcott and Hort 1881
10 οὗτός ἐστιν περὶ οὗ γέγραπται Ἰδοὺ ἐγὼ ἀποστέλλω τὸν ἄγγελόν μου πρὸ προσώπου σου, ὃς κατασκευάσει τὴν ὁδόν σου ἔμπροσθέν σου.

Malachi 3:1 Septuagint
ΙΔΟΥ ἐγὼ ἐξαποστέλλω τὸν ἄγγελόν μου, καὶ ἐπιβλέψεται ὁδὸν πρὸ προσώπου μου, καὶ ἐξαίφνης ἥξει εἰς τὸν ναὸν ἑαυτοῦ Κύριος, ὃν ὑμεῖς ζητεῖτε, καὶ ὁ ἄγγελος τῆς διαθήκης, ὃν ὑμεῖς θέλετε· ἰδοὺ ἔρχεται, λέγει Κύριος παντοκράτωρ.

The two statements above are not even close simply because:
μου/mou = me/mine/of me
σου/sou = you/thee/thy/of you

However the following statement is identical to the Matthew 11:10 quote:

Exodus 23:20 Septuagint
20 Καὶ ἰδοὺ ἐγὼ ἀποστέλλω τὸν ἄγγελόν μου πρὸ προσώπου σου, ἵνα φυλάξῃ σε ἐν τῇ ὁδῷ, ὅπως εἰσαγάγῃ σε εἰς τὴν γῆν, ἣν ἡτοίμασά σοι.

These two statements are identical:

Exodus 23:20a Septuagint ~ ἰδοὺ ἐγὼ ἀποστέλλω τὸν ἄγγελόν μου πρὸ προσώπου σου,

Matthew 11:10b W/H 1881 ~ Ἰδοὺ ἐγὼ ἀποστέλλω τὸν ἄγγελόν μου πρὸ προσώπου σου,

The statement from the Septuagint version of Malachi 3:1a-b is not the same:

Malachi 3:1a-b ~ ΙΔΟΥ ἐγὼ ἐξαποστέλλω τὸν ἄγγελόν μου, καὶ ἐπιβλέψεται ὁδὸν πρὸ προσώπου μου,

Here it is in Ye Good Olde KJV English:

Exodus 23:20 KJV
20. Behold, I send an [Septuagint reads "μου" ~ "mine"] Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared.
21. Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for My name is in him.
22. But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak; then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries.
23. For mine Angel shall go before thee, and bring thee in unto the Amorites, and the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Canaanites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites: and I will cut them off.

Matthew 11:10 KJV
10. For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.

Matthew 11:10b duplicates Exodus 23:20a word for word as if taken straight from the Septuagint.

And "THEE-THINE" [σου] and "ME-MINE" [μου] are NOT the same no matter what language.
However Malachi 3:1 also includes the Malak Brit which is the "Messenger of the Covenant".
According to the Malak Brit himself then Yochanan mashiyach Eliyahu is the malak of Exodus 23.
Eliyahu is the Spirit of the Prophets up to Yochanan the Immerser with the anointing of Eliyahu.

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Wow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That is a truly fascinating analysis of those scriptures Daq!!!!

So then this would all fit with the dream that Jacob/ Yacob had wouldn't it?

Gen 28:12
And he dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it.

daq said:

Hi Dennis, not sure how you mean this. In what ways? Can you elaborate?

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I have to wonder if the soul of Elijah…. and the soul of John the Baptist…. in one sense was an "angel" a being that existed long before either Elijah or John the Baptist?

Little Colton Burpo reports that King David, Samson, John the Baptist and Mary his mother were all there with Jesus in heaven in "Heaven is for Real"… but this would not rule the idea of the consciousness, identity and memories of John the Baptist having been recorded on an "angel" who may have volunteered to come down to the earth as John the Baptist.

The same angel could also have been used to record the personality, identity and memories of Elijah.

He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the human heart; yet no one can fathom what God has done from beginning to end.

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(Ecclesiastes 3:11)

Gottservant said:

It's just a question of context.

4 in the context of 4 + 4 = 4 is still 4 in the context of 4 / 4 = 1.

The outward expression may change, but the inward principle is unaltered.

Remember, "my words are spirit and they are life, the flesh profits nothing".

If being the same person meant they had the same memories, the flesh would profit; but if being the same person means they have the same message, the flesh is crucified.

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Yes… in heaven John the Baptist is still John the Baptist and Elijah in heaven is still Elijah!

Gottservant said:

Sort of like the image Ezekiel saw, where on one face you see an eagle and on another you see a man, etc. etc.

Right?

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Yes………………… very much like this!

I suspect that all of this fits somehow with how some children can sit down to a piano and play like Bethoven with very little practice!

BukiRob said:

Show me in scripture where this is so. In the spirit of Elijah is speaking about the portion of the Spirit that has been poured out on Elijah. Prior to "Pentecost" the average person had NO interaction with the Ruach Hakodesh. This isnt in any way, shape or form associated with reincarnation... This is speaking about the apportionment of the Ruach Hakodesh (Holy Spirit) that was anointed to John the Baptist

Follow me here on this.... When Yeshua returns in all his power and glory, THE DEAD IN CHRIST RISE first. So, if we are already in heaven as many try to teach, why on earth would our dead bodies need to rise to put on immortality? That makes absolutely no sense what so ever.

In the mainstream way of teach about death and what happens.. you have pastors teaching people that when you die your body stays in the ground your soul goes to heaven and you hang out in heaven with G-d and other believers... yet scripture does not teach that.

Scripture would teach that when you die as a believer you are in the grave. The next conscious though the believer has after death is the Messiah has returned in Glory and Power and we are raised from the Dead and our bodies are transformed into our glorified bodies. Those who are alive at his return are "caught up" in the clouds with him and are transformed in the twinkling of an eye.

But no where do you see scripture teach us that upon death you go instantly to heaven. Yes, Yeshua uses parable's but no one take the parable of the sower or the vineyard literal.

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Back in 1988 I was a firm believer in the "soul sleep" theory.

I suspect that if I had been killed in a car accident back at that time I might well have ended up with a group of people viewed by near death experiencer Dr. George Ritchie back in 1943.

c. His Experience of the "Receiving Station"

Jesus then takes Ritchie to another realm and is shown a kind of "receiving station" where spirits would arrive in a deep hypnotic sleep because of a particular religious belief they held to be true. Here there were "angels" trying to arouse them and help them realize, "God is truly a God of the living and that they did not have to lie around sleeping until Gabriel or someone came along blowing on a horn." These are the spirits of people who believe they must sleep in their grave until the second coming of Christ (i.e., soul sleep.)

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near-death.com/ritchie.html