How exactly was John the Baptist somehow Elijah????

[Shimshon]

And so ALL Yisra'el will be saved!

Redeemed and Restored!

 

[DennisTate]

And so ALL Yisra'el will be saved!

Redeemed and Restored!

So true!

It sure seems that during his near death experience, which I assume took place on that occasion when he was stoned and appeared dead, that the Apostle Paul was shown information that he felt he could not clearly and plainly explain at that time.



II Corinthians 12:2-4:

I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; ) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; )
How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Howard Storm:

I asked how God could let the Holocaust of World War II happen. We were transported to a railway station as a long train of freight cars was being unloaded of its human cargo. The guards were screaming and beating the people into submission. The people were Jewish men, women, and children. Exhausted from hunger and thirst, they were totally disoriented from the ordeal of being rounded up and sent on a long journey to an unknown destination. They believed that they were going to work camps, and that their submission to the brutality of the guards was the only way to survive.

We went to the area where the selection process was taking place and heard the guards talking about "the Angel Maker." We went to the place the guards were referring to as "the Angel Maker," which was a series of ovens. I saw piles of naked corpses being loaded into the ovens, and I began to cry. ...."These are the people God loves." Then he said, "Look up." Rising out of the smoke of the chimneys, I saw hundreds of people being met by thousands of angels taking them up into the sky. There was great joy in the faces of the people, and there appeared to be no trace of a memory of the horrendous suffering they had just endured. How ironic that the guards sarcastically called the ovens "the Angel Maker."
...
I asked how God could allow this to happen. They told me that this was not God's will. This was an abomination to God. God wants this never to happen again. This was the sacrifice of an innocent people to whom God had given the law to be an example, a light, to the rest of the world. This Holocaust was breaking God's heart...."

I asked, Why does God let things like this happen? They told me that God was very unhappy with the course of human history and was going to intervene to change the world. God had watched us sink to depths of depravity and cruelty at the very time that he was giving us the instruments to make the world a godlier world. God had intervened in the world many times before, but this time God was going to change the course of human events.// (Howard Storm, My Descent Into Death, page 42,43)
​

 

[daq]

Not sure I follow you.

I was speaking of the gospel of John and the first chapter which identifies Yeshua as the Word. The only Word/Scripture that existed at that time was the Torah

If you go back and look closer at what I wrote perhaps now you may see that it concerns an entirely different book from the one you have referenced. I spoke of what Yochanan the Immerser penned while in the Macherus Patmos-Prison of Herod before he was beheaded, (circa 29CE). How can the greatest of men having been born of women among the prophets not have any writings for us to immerse ourselves into? And how can one have the washing in the water immersion of Yochanan if one does not have his writings? Yochanan clearly states, "I indeed immerse you in water unto repentance: but he that comes after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall immerse you in Spirit Holy and Fire", and Yeshua clearly states that water is necessary when he states that, "Except a man be born of water, and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of Elohim." And what comes first? the washing of the water in the Word or the Spirit immersion with Fire? Seems I remember reading that even Cornelius and his household already knew the immersion of Yochanan when the malak appeared to him and informed him that his good deeds/alms had come up for a memorial before Elohim.

 

[BukiRob]

If you go back and look closer at what I wrote perhaps now you may see that it concerns an entirely different book from the one you have referenced. I spoke of what Yochanan the Immerser penned while in the Macherus Patmos-Prison of Herod before he was beheaded, (circa 29CE). How can the greatest of men having been born of women among the prophets not have any writings for us to immerse ourselves into? And how can one have the washing in the water immersion of Yochanan if one does not have his writings? Yochanan clearly states, "I indeed immerse you in water unto repentance: but he that comes after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall immerse you in Spirit Holy and Fire", and Yeshua clearly states that water is necessary when he states that, "Except a man be born of water, and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of Elohim." And what comes first? the washing of the water in the Word or the Spirit immersion with Fire? Seems I remember reading that even Cornelius and his household already knew the immersion of Yochanan when the malak appeared to him and informed him that his good deeds/alms had come up for a memorial before Elohim.

ah.... thanks for the clarification

 

[DennisTate]

If you go back and look closer at what I wrote perhaps now you may see that it concerns an entirely different book from the one you have referenced. I spoke of what Yochanan the Immerser penned while in the Macherus Patmos-Prison of Herod before he was beheaded, (circa 29CE). How can the greatest of men having been born of women among the prophets not have any writings for us to immerse ourselves into? And how can one have the washing in the water immersion of Yochanan if one does not have his writings? Yochanan clearly states, "I indeed immerse you in water unto repentance: but he that comes after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall immerse you in Spirit Holy and Fire", and Yeshua clearly states that water is necessary when he states that, "Except a man be born of water, and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of Elohim." And what comes first? the washing of the water in the Word or the Spirit immersion with Fire? Seems I remember reading that even Cornelius and his household already knew the immersion of Yochanan when the malak appeared to him and informed him that his good deeds/alms had come up for a memorial before Elohim.

Interesting!

I have never heard of this writing until now Daq! Now to hit Google!

 

[mercy1061]

If you go back and look closer at what I wrote perhaps now you may see that it concerns an entirely different book from the one you have referenced. I spoke of what Yochanan the Immerser penned while in the Macherus Patmos-Prison of Herod before he was beheaded, (circa 29CE). How can the greatest of men having been born of women among the prophets not have any writings for us to immerse ourselves into? And how can one have the washing in the water immersion of Yochanan if one does not have his writings? Yochanan clearly states, "I indeed immerse you in water unto repentance: but he that comes after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall immerse you in Spirit Holy and Fire", and Yeshua clearly states that water is necessary when he states that, "Except a man be born of water, and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of Elohim." And what comes first? the washing of the water in the Word or the Spirit immersion with Fire? Seems I remember reading that even Cornelius and his household already knew the immersion of Yochanan when the malak appeared to him and informed him that his good deeds/alms had come up for a memorial before Elohim.

Except being born again from the water and spirit is much different than being washed in water.

 

[daq]

Except being born again from the water and spirit is much different than being washed in water.

Not when it comes to the washing of the waters of the Word. Yochanan clearly tells you that it is he who immerses you in water. Why do you suppose the writing of Yochanan contains so many quotes keyed to TaNaK? Every quote or reference pertains to entire passages choq full of meaning and symbolism only found in Torah and Prophets. We speak what we know and testify what we have seen and the anthropon-man-faced do not receive our witness.

 

[BukiRob]

Not when it comes to the washing of the waters of the Word. Yochanan clearly tells you that it is he who immerses you in water. Why do you suppose the writing of Yochanan contains so many quotes keyed to TaNaK? Every quote or reference pertains to entire passages choq full of meaning and symbolism only found in Torah and Prophets. We speak what we know and testify what we have seen and the anthropon-man-faced do not receive our witness.

Amen!

 

[mercy1061]

Not when it comes to the washing of the waters of the Word. Yochanan clearly tells you that it is he who immerses you in water. Why do you suppose the writing of Yochanan contains so many quotes keyed to TaNaK? Every quote or reference pertains to entire passages choq full of meaning and symbolism only found in Torah and Prophets. We speak what we know and testify what we have seen and the anthropon-man-faced do not receive our witness.

Perhaps teaching and preaching the law and prophets, is what it means that Yochanan did come in the spirit and power of Elijah. Every man must be born from natural water from his mothers womb, indeed Yochanan was filled with the Holy Spirit even while he was inside his mother's womb.They did whatever they wanted to unto Yochanan, but the Spirit hid Elijah so he could not be arrested by King Ahab or Jezebel, Yochanan and Yeshua were arrested. They asked Yochanan if he was the prophet, he said no, Elisha the prophet was never arrested, he had the blessing of the firstborn, Elijah had no sons.

 

[mercy1061]

I completely agree. Yeshua is the living Torah. The Gospel does not replace Torah because Yeshua is the Torah.

Of course the Priesthood has changed we have a High Priest name Yeshua we have no need of the earthly priesthood.

Gentiles are sons by adoption and Jews are sons by covenant. There is no distinction between Jew and Gentile spiritually because G-d so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son....

If I partake of the blessings given to the natural sons and I am grafted in to the original olive tree I have the same commandments to follow as the natural son.

Yeshua says if you love me keep my commandments. That applies to ALL of his children.

Then if you obey the same rules as the natural son born and seperated from his mother's womb, you should also understand that neither the law or priesthood have charged.

 

[daq]

Interesting!

I have never heard of this writing until now Daq! Now to hit Google!

Surely you have heard of it Dennis and surely you have read it!

It is most generally called: "ΑΠΟΚΑΛΥΨΙΣ ΙΗΣΟΥ ΧΡΙΣΤΟΥ"

Perhaps teaching and preaching the law and prophets, is what it means that Yochanan did come in the spirit and power of Elijah. Every man must be born from natural water from his mothers womb, indeed Yochanan was filled with the Holy Spirit even while he was inside his mother's womb.They did whatever they wanted to unto Yochanan, but the Spirit hid Elijah so he could not be arrested by King Ahab or Jezebel, Yochanan and Yeshua were arrested. They asked Yochanan if he was the prophet, he said no, Elisha the prophet was never arrested, he had the blessing of the firstborn, Elijah had no sons.

Every man already is born from natural water from the womb of his physical mother. Is there one alive here that was not born in such a way? How then does that understanding make any difference in a person whatsoever? That would be like saying "You must be breathing to enter the kingdom" when everyone knows that one who is no longer breathing probably does not have much chance of repenting or changing his heart and mind.

Yerushalaim of above is my mother, (covenant) and from a babe have I known the holy Scripture.

 

[mercy1061]

Surely you have heard of it Dennis and surely you have read it!

It is most generally called: "ΑΠΟΚΑΛΥΨΙΣ ΙΗΣΟΥ ΧΡΙΣΤΟΥ"



Every man already is born from natural water from the womb of his physical mother. Is there one alive here that was not born in such a way? How then does that understanding make any difference in a person whatsoever? That would be like saying "You must be breathing to enter the kingdom" when everyone knows that one who is no longer breathing probably does not have much chance of repenting or changing his heart and mind.

Yerushalaim of above is my mother, (covenant) and from a babe have I known the holy Scripture.

Adam said Eve would become the mother of all the living. Of course you would have to be breathing or living in order to enter the kingdom, everyone is not breathing.

 

[daq]

Adam said Eve would become the mother of all the living. Of course you would have to be breathing or living in order to enter the kingdom, everyone is not breathing.

The women are the cities are the covenants, (Galatians 4:22-26) and these things are allegories according to Paul in that passage. One is of the flesh and the mind of the flesh while the other is of the Spirit and the mind of Messiah which we are to put on according to the same author. If you see "born of water" in John 3:5 as natural physical birth then you essentially nullify the meaning of what is said because everyone physically alive is natural born of water from the womb of his physical mother. How else can this be said? There are ten thousand times ten thousand and thousands of thousands in heaven which have never seen the light of day with physical eyes because they never made it out from the womb of their physical mother. If you say that "born of water" in John 3:5 means natural child birth from the physical womb of the mother then you essentially exclude them from the kingdom of God by your interpretation of the passage. Thus, I say, "born of water" in John 3:5 cannot mean physical child birth because it nullifies any supernal meaning and nullifies any special characteristic of a would be disciple because anyone and everyone is natural born of his physical mother. To say that "one must be naturally born of a physical mother to enter the kingdom of God" is no different than saying "you must be humanoid to enter the kingdom of God", (which is meaningless when spoken to no one else but humanoids) and likewise such an understanding eliminates any necessary action which the statement may have otherwise intended on the part of the would be disciple who may desire to become a follower of the teachings of Yeshua. In other words, imo, to interpret the statement in John 3:5 as literal physical child birth makes the statement of no effect.

 

[mercy1061]

The women are the cities are the covenants, (Galatians 4:22-26) and these things are allegories according to Paul in that passage.

I mention Eve, you mention a scripture concerning Hagar and Sarah whom were born much later than Eve, Eve would be their mother, Saran and Hagar would be her daughters. Eve had two sons before Seth, Cain and Abel.

One is of the flesh and the mind of the flesh while the other is of the Spirit and the mind of Messiah which we are to put on according to the same author.

According to you not the author. Again, I mentioned Eve not Sarah or Hagar. Isaac was born from Sarah's womb, Ishmael (firstborn) was born Hagar's womb. However Cain, Abel, and Seth were all born from Eve's womb. Jacob and Esau had the same mother, Rebekah.

If you see "born of water" in John 3:5 as natural physical birth then you essentially nullify the meaning of what is said because everyone physically alive is natural born of water from the womb of his physical mother.

According to you, not the author. You do not understand my point, so you do not understand what I am saying. Did Melchisedek have parents? Let's just say he had no parents, was he born again from his mother's womb?

How else can this be said?

I already told you, Eve is the mother of all the living including Adam.

There are ten thousand times ten thousand and thousands of thousands in heaven which have never seen the light of day with physical eyes because they never made it out from the womb of their physical mother. If you say that "born of water" in John 3:5 means natural child birth from the physical womb of the mother then you essentially exclude them from the kingdom of God by your interpretation of the passage. Thus, I say, "born of water" in John 3:5 cannot mean physical child birth because it nullifies any supernal meaning and nullifies any special characteristic of a would be disciple because anyone and everyone is natural born of his physical mother. To say that "one must be naturally born of a physical mother to enter the kingdom of God" is no different than saying "you must be humanoid to enter the kingdom of God", (which is meaningless when spoken to no one else but humanoids) and likewise such an understanding eliminates any necessary action which the statement may have otherwise intended on the part of the would be disciple who may desire to become a follower of the teachings of Yeshua. In other words, imo, to interpret the statement in John 3:5 as literal physical child birth makes the statement of no effect.

You must be born again to enter the kingdom of G-d. Pharisee Nicodemus mentions going back into his mother's womb. Elijah had no descendants, Elisha receives the blessing of the firstborn from Elijah.

 

[daq]

I mention Eve, you mention a scripture concerning Hagar and Sarah whom were born much later than Eve, Eve would be their mother, Saran and Hagar would be her daughters. Eve had two sons before Seth, Cain and Abel.



According to you not the author. Again, I mentioned Eve not Sarah or Hagar. Isaac was born from Sarah's womb, Ishmael (firstborn) was born Hagar's womb. However Cain, Abel, and Seth were all born from Eve's womb. Jacob and Esau had the same mother, Rebekah.



According to you, not the author. You do not understand my point, so you do not understand what I am saying. Did Melchisedek have parents? Let's just say he had no parents, was he born again from his mother's womb?



I already told you, Eve is the mother of all the living including Adam.

You can tell yourself that it is me and my own "theology" that you disagree with but in reality what I stated is what Paul is teaching in that passage I quoted. It concerns the women which are the cities which are the covenants. It is an allegory of "the flesh" vs "the Spirit", Yerushalaim of below vs Yerushalaim of above, Sinai vs Horeb, Hagar vs Sarah, Ishmael vs Isaac, and on and on it goes in the same allegorical typology:

Galatians 4:22-29 KJV
22. For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23. But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24. Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
27. For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband. [re: Yeshayah 54:1-8]
28. Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
29. But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

Genesis 3:14-15 KJV
14. And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
15. And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Revelation 12:1-8 KJV
1. And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
2. And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
3. And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4. And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
5. And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
6. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
7. And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8. And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

Therefore Rachel also represents the same typology already stated.

 

[mercy1061]

Genesis 3:14-15 KJV
14. And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
15. And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Revelation 12:1-8 KJV
1. And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
2. And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
3. And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4. And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
5. And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
6. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
7. And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8. And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

Therefore Rachel also represents the same typology already stated.

How so? Did Rachel have 12 sons?

 

[DennisTate]

How so? Did Rachel have 12 sons?

It seems to me that either sons....... or grandsons can often fulfill certain requirements in scriptures.