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How exactly was John the Baptist somehow Elijah????

DennisTate

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Originally Posted by DennisTate
I personally feel that this question has enormous potential to help Messianic Jews and Messianic Gentiles have a better relationship with the Orthodox and Chassidic Jewish communities.

....
Could you please explain what you mean by this statement? So far, I don't see it.

An Orthodox or Chassidic Jew would tend to be open to discussion of the Dr. Ian Stevenson research without considering that it was in contradiction to the Jewish scriptures!

Within fifty years the vast majority of Christians and Jews may view Dr. Ian Stevenson's research as verifiable, anecdotal evidence strongly indicative of the existence of the human spirit or soul as well as of the resurrection of the dead which is the most important doctrine in both Judaism as well as Christianity!
 
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Torah Lishmah

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I didn't know it was a Christian teaching.
Here are the pesukim that I am referring to.

(Luke 1:13) But the angel said to him, "Do not be afraid, Zacharias, for your prayer is heard; and your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you shall call his name John.
(Luke 1:14) And you will have joy and gladness, and many will rejoice at his birth.
(Luke 1:15) For he will be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink. He will also be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother's womb.
(Luke 1:16) And he will turn many of the children of Israel to the Lord their God.
(Luke 1:17) He will also go before Him in the spirit and power of Elijah, 'to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children,' and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just, to make ready a people prepared for the Lord."

(Matt 17:10) And His disciples asked Him, saying, "Why then do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?"
(Matt 17:11) Jesus answered and said to them, "Indeed, Elijah is coming first and will restore all things.
(Matt 17:12) But I say to you that Elijah has come already, and they did not know him but did to him whatever they wished. Likewise the Son of Man is also about to suffer at their hands."
(Matt 17:13) Then the disciples understood that He spoke to them of John the Baptist.
 
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Torah Lishmah

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An Orthodox or Chassidic Jew would tend to be open to discussion of the Dr. Ian Stevenson research without considering that it was in contradiction to the Jewish scriptures!
Why is it that gentiles always seem to know just exactly what Jews are thinking, and how they will react [even though they are frequently wrong]? I still have no clue as to how John the Baptist supposedly being possesed by Elijah's spirit, and Jacobs dream will "help Messianic Jews and Messianic Gentiles have a better relationship with the Orthodox and Chassidic Jewish communities?" I'm sorry, but I'm completely lost on that one.

Within fifty years the vast majority of Christians and Jews may view Dr. Ian Stevenson's research as verifiable, anecdotal evidence strongly indicative of the existence of the human spirit or soul as well as of the resurrection of the dead which is the most important doctrine in both Judaism as well as Christianity!
Jews already have verifiable proof of the existence of the human soul. The Torah. Also, before you take the liberty of speaking on behalf of all Jews, and their doctrinal beliefs, perhaps you should, at the very least, do some research. The resurrection of the dead most certainly is not the most important doctrine in Judaism. It isn't even close.
 
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ContraMundum

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I find the notion that John the Baptist was somehow "possessed" by Elijah's spirit one of the most bizarre teachings in all of the Christian scriptures.

No, we don't believe that.
 
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DennisTate

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Why is it that gentiles always seem to know just exactly what Jews are thinking, and how they will react [even though they are frequently wrong]? I still have no clue as to how John the Baptist supposedly being possesed by Elijah's spirit, and Jacobs dream will "help Messianic Jews and Messianic Gentiles have a better relationship with the Orthodox and Chassidic Jewish communities?" I'm sorry, but I'm completely lost on that one.


Jews already have verifiable proof of the existence of the human soul. The Torah. Also, before you take the liberty of speaking on behalf of all Jews, and their doctrinal beliefs, perhaps you should, at the very least, do some research. The resurrection of the dead most certainly is not the most important doctrine in Judaism. It isn't even close.

I am glad you made this suggestion!

I was surprised to read this:


Afterlife

Olam ha[bless and do not curse]Ba (afterlife) is rarely discussed in Jewish life, be it among Reform, Conservative, or Orthodox Jews. This is in marked contrast to the religious traditions of the people among whom the Jews have lived. Afterlife has always played a critical role in Islamic teachings, for example. To this day, Muslim terrorists who are dispatched on suicide missions are reminded that anyone who dies in a jihad (holy war) immediately ascends to the highest place in heaven. In Christianity, afterlife plays a critical role; the vigorous missionizing efforts of many Protestant sects are rooted in the belief that converting nonbelievers will save them from hell.

Jewish teachings on the subject of afterlife are sparse: The Torah, the most important Jewish text, has no clear reference to afterlife at all.

I have read some articles on what some Rabbi's teach and got the impression that NDE accounts would soon draw Jews and Christians closer together!!??


Beverly Brodsky - near-death experiences
 
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DennisTate

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Fireinfolding

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I was looking at this myself, and I do realize, that Isaiah is quoted, even though the same words can be found in Malichi in respects to sending "my messenger" (before me). And so I have been looking at these things, this is as far as I have gotten. I have other smaller things but these are a few I was looking at in making comparisons between Elijah and John, seems quite a few matches, yet still some other questions, I am hoping as I continue I will have more to add.

I'll just start from here though...

Mal 3:1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me.

John 1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.

Matthew 11:10 For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.

The birth of John was on this wise

Luke 1:13 But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John.

Luke 1:14 And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth. For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord,

Luke 7:28 For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.

Luke 1:15 And shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb. And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God.

Luke 1:16 And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

Matthew 11:14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.


Mal 4:5-6 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.


Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

Mat 3:7-8 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:

Mat 3: 9-10 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. And now also the ax is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

Mat 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

Mal 3:5 And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts.

Matthew 23:14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation

James 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

Luke 19: 43 For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side, And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.

John come baptizing that he might be revealed to Israel, both having part in fulfulling righteousss... For thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness.

Mat 17:12 But I say unto you,That Elijah is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.

Mat 17:13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things

Whereas it also says...

Mat 11:13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.

Mat 11:14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elijah, which was for to come.

Luke 1:17 And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elijahs, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.


He shall go "before him" (the Lord) and John's testimony was of "he cometh after me" (the Lord)


Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

Whereas here...

Mal 4:6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

Then we have...

Mat 21:32 For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him.

Then of this part...

Lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

The only one I see cursing is Elisha (which come after Elijah) those children

Whereas again

He shall go "before him" (the Lord) and John's testimony was of "he cometh after me" (the Lord)

2Kings 1:7 And he said unto them, What manner of man was he which came up to meet you, and told you these words?

2Kings 1:8 And they answered him, He was an hairy man, and girt with a girdle of leather about his loins. And he said, It is Elijah the Tishbite.

Mark 1:6 And John was clothed with camel's hair, and with a girdle of a skin about his loins; and he did eat locusts and wild honey;

Luke 7:24 And when the messengers of John were departed, he began to speak unto the people concerning John, What went ye out into the wilderness for to see? A reed shaken with the wind?

Luke 7:25 But what went ye out for to see? A man clothed in soft raiment? Behold, they which are gorgeously apparelled, and live delicately, are in kings' courts.

Luke 7:26 But what went ye out for to see? A prophet? Yea, I say unto you, and much more than a prophet.

Luke 7:27 This is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.

Luke 1:76 And thou, child, shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare his ways;


John 3:28 Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him.

Isaiah 40:1 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.

Prov 16:17 The highway of the upright is to depart from evil: he that keepeth his way preserveth his soul.

Mat 3:1 In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea,

Mat 3:3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

Mat 21:32 For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him.

Mal 4:6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

John said...

Mat 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:

Hebrews said...

Heb 6:7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:

Wheres of these...

Luke 7:30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.

Heb 6:8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.


Again...

Mal 4:6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

And Elisha who followed after Elijah and who received a double portion of the Spirit of Elijah was the one who cursed the children of the city

2Kings 2:24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.

These two bear witness of each other this way

Luke 1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

Luke 7:28 For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.

Luke 7:33 For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, He hath a devil.

Luke 7:34 The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!

Luke 7:35 But wisdom
is justified of all her children.

Mat 11:14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.

Mat 17:12 But I say unto you, that Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.

Mat 17:13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

These (and others) are what I have been looking at, however I am not finished, just a few that seem comparable and I go back in and add to them. For instance Elijah and Elisha (they two) as John and Jesus (together) Jesus said were to fulfil all righteousness. Now John was filled with the Holy Ghost (by birth) but Jesus was conceived of the Holy Ghost. Yet Jesus come out to be baptized of John even as Elijah asked Elisha, "what is it that I can do for you"? And Elisha says, I want a "double portion" of your Spirit right? Whereas when Jesus come to John (to be baptized) John forbade Jesus (Knowing he was the Lords Christ). Jesus said to suffer it to be so for now for it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then what happened at Johns baptism? The heavens opened and the Holy Ghost descended upon Jesus. John was born filled with the Holy Ghost (and Jesus conceived of the same. The double portion of thy Spirit (the Holy Ghost John was filled with from the womb) is shown descending upon Jesus (or Johns baptism) the Elijah for to come. Like, "heres the sign" . Theres a few other cool comparisons in their order, but dead men coming to life is in touching the bones of Elisha too. Likewise the lepers being cleansed as shown in Namaan. More then I can fit on one post. However they do seem to show a patern between them.

For instance here...

For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things

So of John (Jesus said)

If ye will receive it, this is Elijah, which was for to come.

Because Jesus also said....

For all the prophets and the law prophesied "until John"

Even Jesus says, it "becometh us" to fulfil all righteousness, speaking of the two together (in that sense).

Which is interesting (keeping in mind Elijah being before Elisha) and John before Jesus because here it says...

And it came to pass, when they were gone over, that Elijah said unto Elisha, Ask what I shall do for thee, before I be taken away from thee.

And Elisha (who follows after Elijah) says

I pray thee, let a double portion of thy spirit be upon me.

Yet of John we know... He shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

But Jesus Christ was actually conceived of the Holy Ghost

And its right here (specifically so) John forbids Jesus

But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?

And, Jesus said

"Suffer it for now" in that it behooveth us (both) in fulfilling all righteousness (for John came in the way of righteousness)

"and then" John did suffer Him

And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water:

And, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he (John) saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: (the sign given to John so he would know)

And likewise ...

John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.

Whereas even here...

Again the next day after John stood, and two of his disciples;

And looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of God!

And the two disciples heard him speak,

and they followed Jesus.

Whereas even here...

When the sons of the prophets which were to view at Jericho saw him, they said, The spirit of Elijah doth rest on Elisha.

And they came to meet him, and bowed themselves to the ground before him.

Likewise....As John points out Jesus (these hearing John) the Elijah for to come (Elisha coming after Elijah)

Jesus turns...

Then Jesus turned, and saw them following, and saith unto them,

What seek ye? They said unto him, Rabbi, (which is to say, being interpreted, Master,) where dwellest thou?

He saith unto them, Come and see.

And likewise...

And they (others) came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him.

Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him.

And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

Then after the vision on the mount, where Elias and Moses appeared, he tells them not to tell the vision to any man until he is risen from the dead, which causes them to ask...

His disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?

And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.

But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.

Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

Jesus saying...

If ye will receive it, this is Elijah, which was for to come.

And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers,

lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

Whereas its Elisha (who follows after Elijah) who is shown turning back and cursing the mocking children of the city in the name of the LORD.

Thats what I am looking at, because it speaks of being nigh unto the cursing. I just find this so interesting, have to continue to look at this and add to it as I can though.

Maybe some of these can be helpful to someone, maybe not, like I said, Im still proving these out myself and its certainly not complete, I just have what I am seeing in part
 
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Fireinfolding

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That was too long (I know) and so unrefined, yes, I still need to work on it and tie other things into it. I start off with like 15 things written differently and then I go back in and try to put them together.

I didnt do so well with this one (I know) lots of repeats, could have been half the length lol (sorry all)
 
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Eliwho

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That was too long (I know) and so unrefined, yes, I still need to work on it and tie other things into it. I start off with like 15 things written differently and then I go back in and try to put them together.

I didnt do so well with this one (I know) lots of repeats, could have been half the length lol (sorry all)

Watch you talkin' bout, Willis?
I couldn't put it down till the end.:thumbsup:
 
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Fireinfolding

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Watch you talkin' bout, Willis?
I couldn't put it down till the end.:thumbsup:

I thought you was being sarcastic lol. Like that was too... cute (but really meant long) lol Which it was actually (no worries, I think so) but I could cut it, I just have more to add into. I took this one up this week but I set it aside to refine it later. I sorta do that (Im all over the place) cant concetrate on one thing too long. Always putting stuff aside and returning them (at some point). And I hate to post them before they are touched up a bit better, so I wouldnt blame ya anyhow lol

Thanks bro
 
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DennisTate

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That was too long (I know) and so unrefined, yes, I still need to work on it and tie other things into it. I start off with like 15 things written differently and then I go back in and try to put them together.

I didnt do so well with this one (I know) lots of repeats, could have been half the length lol (sorry all)

I just read all of it and it is very helpful to have all of those scriptures put together at one time!!!!!

What do you personally think of the idea that in the latter days many many many many people will have some sort of an Elijah calling on their lives??????!!

http://www.christianforums.com/t7690408/


When the Lord’s people begin to love, He will use them to release His judgments. His judgments are to be desired. The whole world is groaning and travailing as it waits for His judgments, and when they come, the world will learn righteousness. What He is about to do, He will do through His people, and His people will stand as Elijah in the last days. Their words will shut up the heavens or bring rain; they will prophesy earthquakes and famines, and they will come to pass; they will stop famines and earthquakes.
(Pastor Rick Joyner)
 
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Fireinfolding

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I just read all of it and it is very helpful to have all of those scriptures put together at one time!!!!!


Thank God, and thank you too DennisTate I'm glad they will be helpful to someone, God bless you guys, and thanks too for being kind to my droning on and on :hug:
 
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Fireinfolding

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Hi again Dennis, saw you edited in there. I would rather be quiet on that and let the men speak on those sorts of things. But you can see the baton passed onto John onto Christ (who was preferred before) and Jesus Christ onto His Disciples (His body) that much is clear:thumbsup:
 
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DennisTate

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Hi again Dennis, saw you edited in there. I would rather be quiet on that and let the men speak on those sorts of things. But you can see the baton passed onto John onto Christ (who was preferred before) and Jesus Christ onto His Disciples (His body) that much is clear:thumbsup:


I am of the opinion that the extreme danger of our time period will cause it to become necessary for large numbers of people to become more and more and more like King David and/or Elijah!!!


Zechariah 12:8 "In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David [shall be] as God, as the angel of the LORD before them."
 
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Lulav

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A message from Adam to all humanity by Pastor Rick Joyner.

“When the Lord’s people begin to love, He will use them to release His judgments.


  1. To believe this is to believe in talking to the dead, a big no-no in the Torah
  2. Why would this be to 'all humanity'? billions don't know this 'pastor Rick' from Adam (tongue in cheek purposeful):p doesn't make sense
  3. When the L-RD's people begin to love? Right there is a huge red flag. Those who are his people are so because they love. It is a commandment. So that disqualifies this 'message' as well
  4. When people start to love, G-d is going to them use them to kill others? Hurt others? What kind of 'Love' is that? I can tell you what kind it isn't, the kind that comes from the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
 
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Lulav

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I personally feel that this question has enormous potential to help Messianic Jews and Messianic Gentiles have a better relationship with the Orthodox and Chassidic Jewish communities.



Matthew 17 NASB - The Transfiguration - Six days later - Bible Gateway

I am no expert but I do suspect strongly that the dream that Jacob had may provide us with a major clue to how John the Baptist could be termed Elijah by Rabbi Jesus/Yehoshua:

Genesis 28:12
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
I can't figure out where you were going with this?

What is this major clue you suspected? That maybe since Jacob saw angels coming and going at this place that people that died could do the same thing, Elijah not dying though but being taken to heaven, therefore he came back from heaven???:confused:
 
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