How exactly was John the Baptist somehow Elijah????

[DennisTate]

I personally feel that this question has enormous potential to help Messianic Jews and Messianic Gentiles have a better relationship with the Orthodox and Chassidic Jewish communities.

And His disciples asked Him, “Why then do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?” 11 And He answered and said, “Elijah is coming and will restore all things; 12 but I say to you that Elijah already came, and they did not recognize him, but did [d]to him whatever they wished. So also the Son of Man is going to suffer [e]at their hands.” 13 Then the disciples understood that He had spoken to them about John the Baptist.

Matthew 17 NASB - The Transfiguration - Six days later - Bible Gateway

I am no expert but I do suspect strongly that the dream that Jacob had may provide us with a major clue to how John the Baptist could be termed Elijah by Rabbi Jesus/Yehoshua:

Genesis 28:12
New American Standard Bible (NASB)

12 He had a dream, and behold, a ladder was set on the earth with its top reaching to heaven; and behold, the angels of God were ascending and descending on it.

 

[ronshua]

Greetings DennisTate , read the verse again , it will answer your question . Here it is in the Young's Literal Translation .

10 And his disciples questioned him, saying, `Why then do the scribes say that Elijah it behoveth to come first?'
11 And Jesus answering said to them, `Elijah doth indeed come first, and shall restore all things,
12 and I say to you -- Elijah did already come, and they did not know him, but did with him whatever they would, so also the Son of Man is about to suffer by them.'
13 Then understood the disciples that concerning John the Baptist he spake to them

Just as our Anointed is FULL of The Spirit of YAHweh , John the Baptist was FULL of The Spirit of Elijah , by The Spirit .

John 14
8 Philip saith to him, `Sir, shew to us the Father, and it is enough for us;'
9 Jesus saith to him, `So long time am I with you, and thou hast not known me, Philip? he who hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how dost thou say, Shew to us the Father?


Peace .

 

[DennisTate]

Greetings DennisTate , read the verse again , it will answer your question . Here it is in the Young's Literal Translation .

10 And his disciples questioned him, saying, `Why then do the scribes say that Elijah it behoveth to come first?'
11 And Jesus answering said to them, `Elijah doth indeed come first, and shall restore all things,
12 and I say to you -- Elijah did already come, and they did not know him, but did with him whatever they would, so also the Son of Man is about to suffer by them.'
13 Then understood the disciples that concerning John the Baptist he spake to them

Just as our Anointed is FULL of The Spirit of YAHweh , John the Baptist was FULL of The Spirit of Elijah , by The Spirit .

John 14
8 Philip saith to him, `Sir, shew to us the Father, and it is enough for us;'
9 Jesus saith to him, `So long time am I with you, and thou hast not known me, Philip? he who hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how dost thou say, Shew to us the Father?


Peace .

Now that is an extremely interesting theory that frankly I have never heard before in my life!!!!!

I kind of like it!!!!!!

Ever since I was a teenager I was taught the theory that the final Elijah would probably be one of the two witnesses.......If that theory is true then this would make Elijah as well as the other witness some sort of metaphorical olive tree......which one would assume would mean that your understanding of this verse has at least some scriptural backing??????!!!!!!!

Revelation 11:3

And I will give [power] unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

 

[DennisTate]

Actually, in a way your idea is somewhat similar to what I was taught for years but your wording is significantly different.

What would you say regarding this verse in Zechariah regarding how even a feeble Jew will become similar to King David in the era of Moshiach/Messiah????

Zechariah 12:8

In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David [shall be] as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.

 

[bluemarkus]

he was elija thrugh his prophetic ministry, like elija was possessed by the HS so john the baptist was likewise. even tho they lived in different times and did different things and had different lives the same spirit worked through them likewise for the same longterm goal respectively.

 

[ronshua]

Greetings Brother , without reading a complete chapter , sometimes " saying " what is meant is difficult . In this case ,
10 And I have poured on the house of David, And on the inhabitant of Jerusalem, A spirit of grace and supplications, And they have looked unto Me whom they pierced, And they have mourned over it, Like a mourning over the only one, And they have been in bitterness for it, Like a bitterness over the first-born. Young's Literal Translation


What does Daniel 2 say to you ?


43 Because thou hast seen iron mixed with miry clay, they are mixing themselves with the seed of men: and they are not adhering one with another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.
44 ` days of these kings raise up doth the God of the heavens a kingdom that is not destroyed And in the-- to the age, and its kingdom to another people is not left: it beateth small and endeth all these kingdoms, and it standeth to the age.
45 Because that thou hast seen that out of the mountain cut hath been a stone without hands, and it hath beaten small the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king that which [is] to be after this; and the dream [is] true, and its interpretation stedfast.
46 Then hath king Nebuchadnezzar fallen on his face, and to Daniel he hath done obeisance, and present, and sweet things, he hath said to pour out to him.
47 The king hath answered Daniel and said, `Of a truth [it is] that your God is a God of gods, and a Lord of kings, and a revealer of secrets, since thou hast been able to reveal this secret.'


I would like to point out a few words , " and it standeth to the age ", " and its kingdom to another people is not left "

I receive the fullness , you must read the whole chapter .

Matthew 16:23
and he having turned, said to Peter, `Get thee behind me, adversary! thou art a stumbling-block to me, for thou dost not mind the things of God, but the things of men.'
Is Peter SATAN ?

John 20 ; 28 And Thomas answered and said to him, `My Lord and my God;' ( AND )
2 Tim.1:2 ; to Timotheus, beloved child: Grace, kindness, peace, from God the Father, and Christ Jesus our Lord!

Peace .

days of these kings raise up doth the God of the heavens a kingdom that is not destroyed And in the-- to the age

PS
3 and I will give to My two witnesses, and they shall prophesy days, a thousand, two hundred, sixty, arrayed with sackcloth;
4 these are the two olive [trees], and the two lamp-stands that before the God of the earth do stand;
5 and if any one may will to injure them, fire doth proceed out of their mouth, and doth devour their enemies, and if any one may will to injure them, thus it behoveth him to be killed.
6 These have authority to shut the heaven, that it may not rain rain in the days of their prophecy, and authority they have over the waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the land with every plague, as often as they may will.
Here are the KEYS !
" before the God of the earth " Whom is the god of the earth ?
" authority to shut the heaven " How does our Anointed save the repentant ?
" waters to turn them to blood " Hum a few bars , WASTED IN THE BLOOD .
" two olive [trees], and the two lamp-stands " TWO witnesses to two witnesses . YAHweh's way
3 Jesus answered and said to him, `Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born from above, he is not able to see the reign of God;'
25 the baptism of John, whence was it? -- from heaven, or from men?' And they were reasoning with themselves, saying, `If we should say, From heaven; he will say to us, Wherefore, then, did ye not believe him?

 

[DennisTate]

Greetings Brother , without reading a complete chapter , sometimes " saying " what is meant is difficult . In this case ,
10 And I have poured on the house of David, And on the inhabitant of Jerusalem, A spirit of grace and supplications, And they have looked unto Me whom they pierced, And they have mourned over it, Like a mourning over the only one, And they have been in bitterness for it, Like a bitterness over the first-born. Young's Literal Translation


What does Daniel 2 say to you ?


43 Because thou hast seen iron mixed with miry clay, they are mixing themselves with the seed of men: and they are not adhering one with another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.
44 ` days of these kings raise up doth the God of the heavens a kingdom that is not destroyed And in the-- to the age, and its kingdom to another people is not left: it beateth small and endeth all these kingdoms, and it standeth to the age.
45 Because that thou hast seen that out of the mountain cut hath been a stone without hands, and it hath beaten small the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king that which [is] to be after this; and the dream [is] true, and its interpretation stedfast.
46 Then hath king Nebuchadnezzar fallen on his face, and to Daniel he hath done obeisance, and present, and sweet things, he hath said to pour out to him.
47 The king hath answered Daniel and said, `Of a truth [it is] that your God is a God of gods, and a Lord of kings, and a revealer of secrets, since thou hast been able to reveal this secret.'


I would like to point out a few words , " and it standeth to the age ", " and its kingdom to another people is not left "

I receive the fullness , you must read the whole chapter .

Matthew 16:23
and he having turned, said to Peter, `Get thee behind me, adversary! thou art a stumbling-block to me, for thou dost not mind the things of God, but the things of men.'
Is Peter SATAN ?

John 20 ; 28 And Thomas answered and said to him, `My Lord and my God;' ( AND )
2 Tim.1:2 ; to Timotheus, beloved child: Grace, kindness, peace, from God the Father, and Christ Jesus our Lord!

Peace .

days of these kings raise up doth the God of the heavens a kingdom that is not destroyed And in the-- to the age

PS
3 and I will give to My two witnesses, and they shall prophesy days, a thousand, two hundred, sixty, arrayed with sackcloth;
4 these are the two olive [trees], and the two lamp-stands that before the God of the earth do stand;
5 and if any one may will to injure them, fire doth proceed out of their mouth, and doth devour their enemies, and if any one may will to injure them, thus it behoveth him to be killed.
6 These have authority to shut the heaven, that it may not rain rain in the days of their prophecy, and authority they have over the waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the land with every plague, as often as they may will.
Here are the KEYS !
" before the God of the earth " Whom is the god of the earth ?
" authority to shut the heaven " How does our Anointed save the repentant ?
" waters to turn them to blood " Hum a few bars , WASTED IN THE BLOOD .
" two olive [trees], and the two lamp-stands " TWO witnesses to two witnesses . YAHweh's way
3 Jesus answered and said to him, `Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born from above, he is not able to see the reign of God;'
25 the baptism of John, whence was it? -- from heaven, or from men?' And they were reasoning with themselves, saying, `If we should say, From heaven; he will say to us, Wherefore, then, did ye not believe him?

This sure reminds me of what Pastor Rick Joyner predicted after his visionary dream back in '95!


https://www.facebook.com/notes/west...umanity-by-pastor-rick-joyner/364239236933349


A message from Adam to all humanity by Pastor Rick Joyner.

“When the Lord’s people begin to love, He will use them to release His judgments. His judgments are to be desired. The whole world is groaning and travailing as it waits for His judgments, and when they come, the world will learn righteousness. What He is about to do, He will do through His people, and His people will stand as Elijah in the last days. Their words will shut up the heavens or bring rain; they will prophesy earthquakes and famines, and they will come to pass; they will stop famines and earthquakes.

“When they release armies in the heavens, armies will march on the earth.
When they hold back armies, there will be peace. They will decide where He shows mercy and where He shows His wrath. They will have this authority because they will love, and those who love will be one with Him. What you will see through that door is to help prepare you for what He is about to do through His people.

“I know authority. I also know the responsibility of authority. Because of the great authority that I was given, I am responsible for what has happened to the earth. Even so, the grace of God began to cover me, and God’s great redemption will soon swallow up my mistake. Peace will be taken from the earth, but you are called to help restore it. Peace prevails in heaven, and you are called to bring heaven to earth. Those who abide in His presence will know peace and will spread peace.

 

[ronshua]

Greetings DennisTate , I haven't a clue who your Pastor Rick Joyner is . I'll wager and don't ,
he's a book writing jessy . Buying & selling Darbyism wholesale .
That post was in July . Do you know what I posted ?
Peace .

 

[Gottservant]

A man is known by his personality, if then he adopts the personality of another, he is known by what he has adopted.

 

[DennisTate]

Greetings DennisTate , I haven't a clue who your Pastor Rick Joyner is . I'll wager and don't ,
he's a book writing jessy . Buying & selling Darbyism wholesale .
That post was in July . Do you know what I posted ?
Peace .

Hi RonShua! I am glad that you reminded me of your reply here.....I will definitely have to read this over again a few times.....but as for the calibre of what Pastor Rick Joyner claims to have been shown.....it is certainly some of the most powerful and logical writing that I have read in my 53 years!!!!


http://www.christianforums.com/t7695357/

Could God be the most emotional being in the universe????
This would seem to correspond with the Creator actually having thought up and choreographed an infinite number of Big Events over infinite time in the past as some physicists seem to believe has been the case!

Investing infinite time in the creation....would certainly tend to give the Creator a greater emotional attachment to all of us than we can begin to imagine...considering how young we are.

“When My Father moves His little finger, the whole universe trembles. To shake the nations with words does not impress anyone who dwells here. But when even the least of My brethren on earth shows love, it brings joy to My Father’s heart. When even the most humble church sings to My Father with true love in their hearts, He silences all of heaven to listen to them. He knows that one cannot help but to worship when they are beholding His glory here,but when those who are living in such darkness and difficulty sing with true hearts to Him, it touches Him more than all of the myriads of heaven can.

“Many times, the broken notes from earth caused all of heaven to weep with joy as they beheld My Father being touched. A few holy ones struggling to express their adoration for Him has many times caused Him to weep.Every time I see My brethren touch Him with true worship, it makes the pain and grief I knew on the cross seem like a small price to pay. Nothing brings Me more joy than when you worship My Father. I went to the cross so that you could worship Him through Me. It is in this worship that you, the Father and I are all one.” (Pastor Rick Joyner, chapter 15, page 85, The Vision)

 

[DennisTate]

A man is known by his personality, if then he adopts the personality of another, he is known by what he has adopted.

I just read an intriguing prophecy from Pastor David Wilkerson regarding how the spirit of Elijah will manifest in these latter days:

THE WATCHMEN on THE WALLS
by David Wilkerson

The Old Testament closes with this amazing prophecy of Malachi:
"Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of
the great and dreadful day of the Lord: and he shall turn the heart
of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their
fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse" (Malachi 4:5-6).

This prophecy was fulfilled in great measure in the ministry of John
the Baptist. An angel appeared to John´s father and prophesied
that his son would turn many in Israel to the Lord and that "he
shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias (Elijah), to turn
the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to
the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the
Lord" (Luke 1:17).

Jesus, speaking to His disciples about John the Baptist, said:
"And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come"
(Matthew 11:14). He added, "He that hath ears to hear, let him
hear" (verse 15). I believe Jesus was asking them to see the
spiritual significance of John's coming, as prophesied, in the
spirit and power of Elijah.

John was anointed with the same fearless Spirit and power which
was upon Elijah. He spoke openly about the sins of disobedient,
pleasure-seeking people of his day. Christ was soon to appear
and this mighty man of truth suddenly came on the scene to
prepare a people for the Lord. This wilderness prophet was sent
to turn the hearts of the people (which is the truest definition of
repentance) to the Lord. John preached repentance, restitution,
purity of heart, justice, and a practical walk of holiness to
correspond with an open confession of sins.

I believe the prophet Malachi, as well as other Old Testament
prophets, speaks of a company of holy people who will be raised
up just prior to Christ's second coming. They will minister under
the very same Spirit and power that rested upon Elijah and John
the Baptist.

This last-day Elijah company of believers will heed the prophecy
of Isaiah, "Cry aloud, spare not, lift up thy voice like a trumpet,
and shew my people their transgression, and the house of Jacob
their sins" (Isaiah 58:1). These are the watchmen upon the walls,
"which shall never hold their peace day nor night . . . and give
him no rest, till he establish, and till he make Jerusalem a praise
in the earth" (Isaiah 62:6-7).

 

[Torah Lishmah]

How exactly was John the Baptist somehow Elijah????

There is always the obvious answer. He wasn't.

I find the notion that John the Baptist was somehow "possessed" by Elijah's spirit one of the most bizarre teachings in all of the Christian scriptures.

 

[DennisTate]

There is always the obvious answer. He wasn't.

I find the notion that John the Baptist was somehow "possessed" by Elijah's spirit one of the most bizarre teachings in all of the Christian scriptures.

Torah Lishmah....can you or any of your children or grandchildren take a CD or DVD or stick.....insert it in a computer.....download a program or movie......and then remove that CD, or DVD or stick????????

Replicating the subconscious memories of a historical person to form a part of their "soul/human spirit" that is given to some sort of modern version of them at birth in a later time period....may be much more simple for HaShem/The G-d of Abraham.....than for your kids or mine to play around with techie stuff!!!!????

 

[Gottservant]

That's a good analogy actually, of the memory stick.

If a computer has a memory stick in it, it is quite possible to say "the computer is the memory stick" since they are connected (but you do not think for a minute that "being" the memory stick replaces the computer).

 

[Torah Lishmah]

Torah Lishmah....can you or any of your children or grandchildren take a CD or DVD or stick.....insert it in a computer.....download a program or movie......and then remove that CD, or DVD or stick????????

Replicating the subconscious memories of a historical person to form a part of their "soul/human spirit" that is given to some sort of modern version of them at birth in a later time period....may be much more simple for HaShem/The G-d of Abraham.....than for your kids or mine to play around with techie stuff!!!!????

I think you misunderstood me, Dennis. At no time have I ever said that the Creator is unable to do anything. My suggestion was not that He couldn't do it, but that He didn't do it. Big difference.

So, to reiterate, I find the notion that John the baptist was possesed by the spirit of Elijah [and therefore a fulfillment of prophecy] to be quite absurd. That is merely my personal opinion on the matter, and nothing more.

 

[Torah Lishmah]

I personally feel that this question has enormous potential to help Messianic Jews and Messianic Gentiles have a better relationship with the Orthodox and Chassidic Jewish communities.

Could you please explain what you mean by this statement? So far, I don't see it.

 

[xDenax]

I find the notion that John the Baptist was somehow "possessed" by Elijah's spirit one of the most bizarre teachings in all of the Christian scriptures.

I didn't know it was a Christian teaching.

 

[ChavaK]

So far, I don't see it.

Me neither....

 

[DennisTate]

That's a good analogy actually, of the memory stick.

If a computer has a memory stick in it, it is quite possible to say "the computer is the memory stick" since they are connected (but you do not think for a minute that "being" the memory stick replaces the computer).

I admit that I may have taken this scripture in the wrong direction....but basically I am wondering if the human spirit/soul in some way is one level of angel????!!!


Genesis 28:12 "And he dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it."

Is volunteering to become a human similar to the proverbial "camel going through the eye of the needle" which apparently meant that the camel got down on its knees and shimmied through a fairly low gate into a city!!!??

This ties in with the question of the pre-existence of the human spirit or soul??


Romans 9:13 "(For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that callethIt was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger."As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated."


In other words is God using the human experience to bring fallen angels to repentance and the restoration of their relationship with God at the same time that angels who perhaps did not fall develop even greater levels of humility and ability to teach.

Once our identity is created though....I believe that we are permanent and will continue to learn and learn and learn and become even more deeply in love with our Creator for eternity.

Does the human experience take angels up to a new level of sonship with God that they did not have before becoming human?????

If the Word/Logos can incarnate into a human body....why not an angel???

 

[DennisTate]

There is always the obvious answer. He wasn't.

I find the notion that John the Baptist was somehow "possessed" by Elijah's spirit one of the most bizarre teachings in all of the Christian scriptures.

Actually, I agree with you. John the Baptist was NOT Elijah...but it is possible that his human spirit/soul contained the subconscious memories of the historical Elijah which played a significant role in the type of personality and level of dedication that John the Baptist had??!!