How does Trent align to scripture?

[myfavoritmartin]

1. CANON 9: "If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema."
2. COMPARED TO SCRIPTURE...
3. "Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin" (Rom. 3:20).
4. "Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" (Rom. 3:24).
5. "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law" (Rom. 3:28).
6. "For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness" (Rom. 4:3).
7. "Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ" (Rom. 5:1).
8. "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God" (Eph. 2:8).
9. "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost" (Titus 3:5).

1. CANON 12: "If any one shall say that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in the divine mercy pardoning sins for Christ's sake, or that it is that confidence alone by which we are justified ... let him be accursed."
2. COMPARED TO SCRIPTURE...
   1. "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name" (John 1:12).
   2. "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law" (Rom. 3:28).
   3. 'For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness" (Rom. 4:3).
   4. "Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; 27Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the peoples': for this he did once, when he offered up himself" (Heb. 7:25-27).
   5. "For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day" (2 Tim. 1:12).
3. Canon 14: "If any one saith, that man is truly absolved from his sins and justified, because that he assuredly believed himself absolved and justified; or, that no one is truly justified but he who believes himself justified; and that, by this faith alone, absolution and justification are effected; let him be anathema."
4. COMPARED TO SCRIPTURE...
   1. "For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness" (Rom. 4:3).
   2. "Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ" (Rom. 5:1).
5. Canon 23: "lf any one saith, that a man once justified can sin no more, nor lose grace, and that therefore he that falls and sins was never truly justified; or, on the other hand, that he is able, during his whole life, to avoid all sins, even those that are venial,- except by a special privilege from God, as the Church holds in regard of the Blessed Virgin; let him be anathema."
6. COMPARED TO SCRIPTURE...
   1. "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him" (John 3:36).
   2. "And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day" (John 6:40).
   3. "And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand" (John 10:28).
   4. "That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord" (Rom. 5:21).
   5. "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us" (1 John 2:19).
   6. "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God" (1 John 5:13).
7. Canon 24: "If any one saith, that the justice received is not preserved and also increased before God through good works; but that the said works are merely the fruits and signs of Justification obtained, but not a cause of the increase thereof; let him be anathema." COMPARED TO SCRIPTURE...
8. 1. "O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 2This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?" (Gal. 3:1-3)
   2. "Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. 2Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. 3For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law" (Gal. 5:1-3).
9. Canon 30: "If any one saith, that, after the grace of Justification has been received, to every penitent sinner the guilt is remitted, and the debt of eternal punishment is blotted out in such wise, that there remains not any debt of temporal punishment to be discharged either in this world, or in the next in Purgatory, before the entrance to the kingdom of heaven can be opened (to him); let him be anathema."
10. COMPARED TO SCRIPTURE...
    1. "Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ" (Rom. 5:1).
    2. "And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; 14Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross" (Col. 2:13-14).
11. Canon 33: "If any one saith, that, by the Catholic doctrine touching Justification, by this holy Synod inset forth in this present decree, the glory of God, or the merits of our Lord Jesus Christ are in any way derogated from, and not rather that the truth of our faith, and the glory in fine of God and of Jesus Christ are rendered (more) illustrious; let him be anathema.
    
    

[URL="http://www.carm.org/catholic/trent.htm"]http://www.carm.org/catholic/trent.htm[/URL]
EDITED TO ADD:COMPARED TO SCRIPTURE... FOR THOSE WHO DIDN'T UNDERSTAND THIS.

 

[ScottBot]

I find it convenient that you omitted Trent's Scriptural basis for these canons and inserted your own. Afraid of comparing Scripture to Scripture?

I'd do it, but the rest of my night is booked. I am sure that Trento will be along and make this point and do it well.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

I find it convenient that you omitted Trent's Scriptural basis for these canons and inserted your own. Afraid of comparing Scripture to Scripture?

I'd do it, but the rest of my night is booked. I am sure that Trento will be along and make this point and do it well.

I would encourage you to post them for discussion.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

I find it convenient that you omitted Trent's Scriptural basis for these canons and inserted your own.

I'll go to vatican.va and see if I can find these.

 

[PaladinValer]

Typical Protestant retorts...

VCs may emphasize works more than most Apostolic Christians, but at least they understand living faith <edit>.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

I find it convenient that you omitted Trent's Scriptural basis for these canons and inserted your own. Afraid of comparing Scripture to Scripture?

.

1. CANON 9: "If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema."
   1. "Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin" (Rom. 3:20).
   2. "Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" (Rom. 3:24).
   3. "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law" (Rom. 3:28).
   4. "For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness" (Rom. 4:3).
   5. "Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ" (Rom. 5:1).
   6. "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God" (Eph. 2:8).
   7. "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost" (Titus 3:5).

Start with canon 9 I've looked, please show me scott where there is any scriptural attachment to this?

 

[myfavoritmartin]

but at least they understand living faith which is something Evangelicals do not.

Go ahead vler explain what you mean by this, because I can tell you I DO KNOW and understand what A TRUE living faith is, so please explain what you mean.

 

[PaladinValer]

Tell me...what does the Greek imply when it talks about "faith." Is it passive or is it active?

Take that information and apply it to what St. James' Epistle discusses about dead faith.

Apostolic Christians get it. Evangelicals do not.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Tell me...what does the Greek imply when it talks about "faith."

I don't know greek, what I do know is assurances based on a clear promise from scripture is stronger than objections which are raised by a lack of information.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Tell me...what does the Greek imply when it talks about "faith." Is it passive or is it active?

Take that information and apply it to what St. James' Epistle discusses about dead faith.

Apostolic Christians get it. Evangelicals do not.

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Hebrews 11:29 to-Faith/pistei <4102> They crossed-over/diebhsan <1224> (5627) the Red Sea as thru Dry: which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned.

Luke 16:26 And on all of these, between Us [NC Faith/Life/Spirit] and Ye [OC Law/Death/Flesh] a great chasm/casma <5490> hath been established, so that those willing to cross-over/diabhnai <1224> (5629) hence toward ye not be able to, no yet thence toward us may be ferrying/diaperwsin <1276>.

 

[PaladinValer]

I don't know greek, what I do know is assurances based on a clear promise from scripture is stronger than objections which are raised by a lack of information.

Ah, so you simply read the Bible as it is written in English and simply ignore the importance neuances that are found in the actual languages in which the Bible is written in...

Don't you think it would be wise to make sure your understanding of the Holy Bible is accurate not necessarily to the English but of the Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic?

That's the problem wth the Bible. People, especially Evangelicals, soak it all up as they see it, forgetting that it isn't native to the English language.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

That's the problem wth the Bible. People, especially Evangelicals, soak it all up as they see it, forgetting that it isn't native to the English language.

You know what pv everytime I do a bible study I view it from no less than 4 vastly different translations and I use scripture to help interpret scripture and I use my strongs to help me understand those words. You KNOW what pv? my CLEAR understanding comes from that. Anything further is digging and twisting to suit ones own doctrine.

 

[Catholic Christian]

The source link in the OP is not a Catholic source, and the document has been altered. This is therefore a forgery and a lie. This is not valid theology - it is forgery and misinformation.

 

[Catholic Christian]

The source link in the OP is not a Catholic source, and the document has been altered. This is therefore a forgery and a lie. This is not valid theology - it is forgery and misinformation.

Here is the Council Documents:
http://www.dailycatholic.org/history/19ecumen.htm

 

[TraderJack]

Lets see, whether it is a Roman source or not is irrelevant.

The real question is, does the OP correctly cite the canons from Trent listed.

Here is the first one as cited by the OP;

The following canon is from the 6th Session on Justification

CANON 9: "If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema."

Here is the canon as given from the Roman source provided in the link; http://www.dailycatholic.org/history/19ecumen.htm

CANON IX.-If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema.

Wow, amazing, they are IDENTICAL.

So, one has to ask, where is this "alteration" and "lie" which has been falsely charged?

1. "Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin" (

   Rom. 3:20).
   [*]"Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" (Rom. 3:24).
   [*]"Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law" (Rom. 3:28).
   [*]"For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness" (Rom. 4:3).
   [*]"Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ" (Rom. 5:1).
   [*]"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God" (Eph. 2:8).
   [*]"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost" (Titus 3:5).

Me thinks that the Roman accuser has made a terrible mistake in reading, by confusing the canon cited at the top with the response to the canon from the Scriptures made immediately above.

But, lets see if the other canons from Trent cited by the OP are identical to those from the Roman source.

 

[TraderJack]

As it is cited by the OP:

CANON 12: "If any one shall say that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in the divine mercy pardoning sins for Christ's sake, or that it is that confidence alone by which we are justified ... let him be accursed."

Again, here is the 12th canon as rendered in the Roman source provided by the accuser.

CANON XII.-If any one saith, that justifying faith is nothing else but confidence in the divine mercy which remits sins for Christ's sake; or, that this confidence alone is that whereby we are justified; let him be anathema.

Amazing! Absolutely astounding!

Again, they are IDENTICAL!

So, where is this "alteration", "lie", "forgery" so falsely accused?

It does not exist.



"What we have heah, is failure to read properly"

Again, the false accuser has made the fatal mistake of failing to read the OP properly, and rather hysterically jumping to a false conclusion by confusing the Biblical responses that follow the canon as correctly cited.

Here are the Biblical responses to the 12th canon as correctly cited:

1. "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name" (John 1:12).
2. "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law" (Rom. 3:28).
3. 'For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness" (Rom. 4:3).
4. "Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; 27Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the peoples': for this he did once, when he offered up himself" (Heb. 7:25-27).
5. "For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day" (2 Tim. 1:12).

The accuser has made a terrible mistake.

Lets see if the other canons rendered by the OP are identical to the canons rendered by the Roman source.

 

[TraderJack]

Canon 14: "If any one saith, that man is truly absolved from his sins and justified, because that he assuredly believed himself absolved and justified; or, that no one is truly justified but he who believes himself justified; and that, by this faith alone, absolution and justification are effected; let him be anathema."

Here is the same canon as rendered by the provided Roman source;

CANON XIV.-If any one saith, that man is truly absolved from his sins and justified, because that he assuredly believed himself absolved and justified; or, that no one is truly justified but he who believes himself justified; and that, by this faith alone, absolution and justification are effected; let him be anathema.

Well josh my britches. Incredible!

Once again, they are IDENTICAL!

<staff edit>

"How does Trent align to Scripture?"

Therefore, the OP presents the canons from Trent and then below the canon the Scriptures by comparison.

If the OP were read correctly, seeing what is actually said rather than seeing something that does not exist, a rush to make false accusations could have been avoided.


All the other canons rendered by the OP are identical to those rendered in the provided Roman source, so no need to post them all.

I am confident that the point is made already of the failure to read properly leading to the making of false accusations.

 

[TraderJack]

Canon 23 of the 6th Session of Trent on Justification as rendered by the OP:

Canon 23: "lf any one saith, that a man once justified can sin no more, nor lose grace, and that therefore he that falls and sins was never truly justified; or, on the other hand, that he is able, during his whole life, to avoid all sins, even those that are venial,- except by a special privilege from God, as the Church holds in regard of the Blessed Virgin; let him be anathema."

Canon 23 as rendered by the provided Roman source:

CANON XXIII.-lf any one saith, that a man once justified can sin no more, nor lose grace, and that therefore he that falls and sins was never truly justified; or, on the other hand, that he is able, during his whole life, to avoid all sins, even those that are venial,-except by a special privilege from God, as the Church holds in regard of the Blessed Virgin; let him be anathema.

Once again, exactly the same.

The OP by comparison and in opposition to canon 23, just as the OP designates, follows the canon with the Scriptures:

1. "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him" (John 3:36).
2. "And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day" (John 6:40).
3. "And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand" (John 10:28).
4. "That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord" (Rom. 5:21).
5. "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us" (1 John 2:19).
6. "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God" (1 John 5:13).

 

[PaladinValer]

You know what pv everytime I do a bible study I view it from no less than 4 vastly different translations and I use scripture to help interpret scripture and I use my strongs to help me understand those words.

You mean you don't consider the original languages?

How...Pre-Vatican II Roman Catholic of you!

Futhermore, your use of circular reasoning disqualifies any validity to your argument.

You KNOW what pv? my CLEAR understanding comes from that. Anything further is digging and twisting to suit ones own doctrine.

Like what you are doing now, not consulting what is truly pertenant to understanding what the Holy Bible is actually talking about and instead using whatever translation(s) that fit(s) your fancy and theology?

The key is the Greek in this case. I'm calling your bluff here. Prove your accusation and defend it against my very valid point or retract it. If you are unwilling to defend your position, then perhaps you shouldn't state it to begin with.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

You mean you don't consider the original languages?

How...Pre-Vatican II Roman Catholic of you!

Futhermore, your use of circular reasoning disqualifies any validity to your argument.



Like what you are doing now, not consulting what is truly pertenant to understanding what the Holy Bible is actually talking about and instead using whatever translation(s) that fit(s) your fancy and theology?

The key is the Greek in this case. I'm calling your bluff here. Prove your accusation and defend it against my very valid point or retract it. If you are unwilling to defend your position, then perhaps you shouldn't state it to begin with.

start a thread on whatever the point is your trying to make, the point of this thread is to show that the counsil of Trent is contradictory to scripture...
If you don't understand just back up a couple posts TJ explains it nice and thorough to CC.

Good luck!