How does the Reformed view defend against these scriptures?

[ChristIsSovereign]

No doubt. I bet those reformers knew nothing about that.

Those are in the Bible? I bet if the reformers had seen those, they would have had a different view.

Not are they only in the Bible, they ARE the Bible. Just an ancient Bible.

 

[RC1970]

Do note that I would appreciate it if this discussion were to focus only on the verses provided and not trail off into something else. I'm looking for the Reformed's exegetical rebuttals and so you must forgive me if I preserve mild skepticism toward responses that are considerably on-the-spot eisegesis. Attempts are still welcomed. Remember to be charitable.

I'll be using (ESV) a version so Standard that Standard is its middle name.

1 Timothy 2:3-6
3 This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior,
4 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
6 who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

2 Peter 3:9
9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

1 John 2:2
2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

These verses are strongly suggestive of Unlimited Atonement, including the infamous John 3:16.

Matthew 22:14
14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

Now, unless God is in the business of practicing redundancy, (He is not Hebrews 13:8) this verse suggests Resistible Grace. Not to mention Matthew 18:10-14 the Parable of the Lost Sheep.

Matthew 10:38
38 And whoever does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.
Luke 9:23
23 And he said to all, "If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me.
Mark 8:34
34 And calling the crowd to him with his disciples, he said to them,"If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.

It's easier if I deal with each instance of Scripture separately.

So, let me start with 1 John 2:2

"He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world."

If you understand what "propitiation" means then the phrase "whole world" could not possibly be referring to everyone in the world. Right? Unless you are a universalist.

The Apostles often use all inclusive language to refer to different classes of people such as Jew vs. Gentile, rich vs. poor, male vs. female, etc.

This universal language is where the Church gets it's concept of "catholicity". The Nicene Creed contains the line "one, holy, catholic and apostolic" for example.

This is the same for 1 Timothy 2:3-6, where the greater context is referring to classifications of people and not individuals.

In 2 Peter 3:9, the immediate antecedent of the words "any" and "all" is the word "you" which is clearly referring to the people to whom the letter was written, namely the "beloved" or, in other words, believers.

This is consistent with the Reformed understanding that Christ died for all believers throughout the whole world and not for all people.

 

[ChristIsSovereign]

It's easier if I deal with each instance of Scripture separately.

So, let me start with 1 John 2:2

"He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world."

If you understand what "propitiation" means then the phrase "whole world" could not possibly be referring to everyone in the world. Right? Unless you are a universalist.

The Apostles often use all inclusive language to refer to different classes of people such as Jew vs. Gentile, rich vs. poor, male vs. female, etc.

This universal language is where the Church gets it's concept of "catholicity". The Nicene Creed contains the line "one, holy, catholic and apostolic" for example.

This is the same for 1 Timothy 2:3-6, where the greater context is referring to classifications of people and not individuals.

In 2 Peter 3:9, the immediate antecedent of the words "any" and "all" is the word "you" which is clearly referring to the people to whom the letter was written, namely the "beloved" or, in other words, believers.

This is consistent with the Reformed understanding that Christ died for all believers throughout the whole world and not for all people.

Read the last post with the Greek Lexicons. I hope that gives some food for thought.

 

[Hammster]

Not are they only in the Bible, they ARE the Bible. Just an ancient Bible.

That's amazing.

 

[ChristIsSovereign]

That's amazing.

I left Calvinism because of deeper studies of the Word and because I felt the Holy Spirit convict me of intellectual pride. I would condemn others who dared to oppose Calvinism and that directly went against the Scriptures having to do with sectarianism.

Is Calvinism true? No. Is Arminianism true? No.

The solemn truth is that we will never truly understand soteriology until we get to Heaven and perhaps ask God how He does His picking and choosing and whatever it is.

 

[Hammster]

I left Calvinism because of deeper studies of the Word and because I felt the Holy Spirit convict me of intellectual pride. I would condemn others who dared to oppose Calvinism and that directly went against the Scriptures having to do with sectarianism.

Is Calvinism true? No. Is Arminianism true? No.

The solemn truth is that we will never truly understand soteriology until we get to Heaven and perhaps ask God how He does His picking and choosing and whatever it is.

If you really left Calvinism, then why are you acting as if it doesn't have an answer to the verses you posted?

 

[RC1970]

Read the last post with the Greek Lexicons. I hope that gives some food for thought.

Do you have a specific problem in mind? Or, are you saying that I should have given my answer in Greek?

 

[REM]

Do note that I would appreciate it if this discussion were to focus only on the verses provided and not trail off into something else. I'm looking for the Reformed's exegetical rebuttals and so you must forgive me if I preserve mild skepticism toward responses that are considerably on-the-spot eisegesis. Attempts are still welcomed. Remember to be charitable.

I'll be using (ESV) a version so Standard that Standard is its middle name.

1 Timothy 2:3-6
3 This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior,
4 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
6 who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

2 Peter 3:9
9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

1 John 2:2
2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

These verses are strongly suggestive of Unlimited Atonement, including the infamous John 3:16.

Matthew 22:14
14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

Now, unless God is in the business of practicing redundancy, (He is not Hebrews 13:8) this verse suggests Resistible Grace. Not to mention Matthew 18:10-14 the Parable of the Lost Sheep.

Matthew 10:38
38 And whoever does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.
Luke 9:23
23 And he said to all, "If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me.
Mark 8:34
34 And calling the crowd to him with his disciples, he said to them,"If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.

Romans 2:4 (KJV)
4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

Acts 18:10 (KJV)
10 For I am with thee, and no man shall set on thee to hurt thee: for I have much people in this city.

Romans 9:13-18 (KJV)
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.


Without God there is no one that will seek him, none.
Saul of Tarsus would still be persecuting Christians unless our Lord hadn't chosen him. All the Apostles were chosen.
The whosoever will are those people that God has drawn otherwise it ain't happening. Period.

 

[ChristIsSovereign]

Do you have a specific problem in mind? Or, are you saying that I should have given my answer in Greek?

Neither. Just read the posts about the Greek Lexicons of those verses. Don't answer in Greek. I won't be able to understand.

On a random note, I'm neither Calvinist nor Arminian. The debates, I believe, are fruitless and circular and come to no true conclusion.

 

[dqhall]

Do note that I would appreciate it if this discussion were to focus only on the verses provided and not trail off into something else. I'm looking for the Reformed's exegetical rebuttals and so you must forgive me if I preserve mild skepticism toward responses that are considerably on-the-spot eisegesis. Attempts are still welcomed. Remember to be charitable.

I'll be using (ESV) a version so Standard that Standard is its middle name.

1 Timothy 2:3-6
3 This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior,
4 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
6 who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

2 Peter 3:9
9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

1 John 2:2
2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

These verses are strongly suggestive of Unlimited Atonement, including the infamous John 3:16.

Matthew 22:14
14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

Now, unless God is in the business of practicing redundancy, (He is not Hebrews 13:8) this verse suggests Resistible Grace. Not to mention Matthew 18:10-14 the Parable of the Lost Sheep.

Matthew 10:38
38 And whoever does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.
Luke 9:23
23 And he said to all, "If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me.
Mark 8:34
34 And calling the crowd to him with his disciples, he said to them,"If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.

I am not sure what you mean by the reformed church. Do they have a constitution, a statement of purpose, or articles of incorporation? Who could speak for them?

I understand God may not desire any should get lost or fail, yet people are suffering. There have been 329 homicides in Chicago year to date. 80 were murdered in June. More were maimed or wounded.

Why is this necessary?
Matthew 3:10 "Even now the axe lies at the root of the trees. Therefore, every tree that doesn't bring forth good fruit is cut down, and cast into the fire."

 

[Hammster]

Neither. Just read the posts about the Greek Lexicons of those verses. Don't answer in Greek. I won't be able to understand.

On a random note, I'm neither Calvinist nor Arminian. The debates, I believe, are fruitless and circular and come to no true conclusion.

And yet, here you are.

 

[sdowney717]

2 Peter 3:9 - "The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance."

Who is the "you" in the first part of the verse? Isn't Peter referring to "you believers"? So, then, it's not a stretch to understand the next pronoun "any" as a reference to "any of you" and the adjective "all" as also modifying "you" ("all of you believers").



Thanks for inviting me to do so.



You think it contradicts TULIP but no one who holds to TULIP or teaches TULIP believes that it contradicts. So where does the problem lie? Perhaps you've misunderstood the implications of TULIP.



No reformed teacher believes that people are totally passive in their salvation or that salvation happens to them in contradiction to their will or even without their will being involved. Our free choice to embrace Jesus is a very important part of our salvation and any good reformed teacher would have no problem saying this.

Yes, Peter writes his letters to the beloved elect, who will obtain salvation, God is not willing that any of those He gives to Christ be lost.

John 6
39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

 

[ChristIsSovereign]

And yet, here you are.

I am not debating anything, to be honest... I'm not 'anything'ism at all.

Frankly if the Calvinist/Arminian debate was a giant stone, I'd want God to cast His lightning upon the stone so it'll read, "Thus saith the LORD, thou debateth fruitlessly."

 

[GingerBeer]

1 Timothy 2:3-6
3 This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior,
4 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
6 who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

2 Peter 3:9
9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

1 John 2:2
2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

Simple! Just insist that "all" means "all sorts [of people]" and that "world" means "people from every part of the world".

 

[sdowney717]

Simple! Just insist that "all" means "all sorts [of people]" and that "world" means "people from every part of the world".

I don't know if your being facetious, trying to be funny or serious.

Matthew 5:37 [Full Chapter]
But let your ‘Yes’ be ‘Yes,’ and your ‘No,’ ‘No.’ For whatever is more than these is from the evil one.

Examples of all
Revelation 5:9
And they sang a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll, And to open its seals; For You were slain, And have redeemed us to God by Your blood Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,

Matthew 8:11
And I say to you that many will come from east and west, and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.

 

[GingerBeer]

I don't know if your being facetious, trying to be funny or serious.

Matthew 5:37 [Full Chapter]
But let your ‘Yes’ be ‘Yes,’ and your ‘No,’ ‘No.’ For whatever is more than these is from the evil one.

Examples of all
Revelation 5:9
And they sang a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll, And to open its seals; For You were slain, And have redeemed us to God by Your blood Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,

Matthew 8:11
And I say to you that many will come from east and west, and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.

My reply is accurate. It is how many who are Reformed in theology deal with "all" and "world" in the verses mentioned.

 

[Hammster]

My reply is accurate. It is how many who are Reformed in theology deal with "all" and "world" in the verses mentioned.

Are the definitions incorrect?

 

[GingerBeer]

Are the definitions incorrect?

They are tailored by the theology to fit the verses.

 

[Hammster]

They are tailored by the theology to fit the verses.

Are the definitions incorrect? It's a simple yes or no question.

 

[GingerBeer]

Are the definitions incorrect? It's a simple yes or no question.

Nothing about bible interpretation is simple. People argue about it all the time.

'All" does not usually mean "All sorts of people" and "world" does not usually mean "people from all over the world"