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How does the idea that most of Gods creation he will have to burn forever bring glory to God?

Spiritual Jew

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I didn't say it had anything to do with annihilation. But, it certainly refers to being separated away from the presence of God, which your statement blatantly contradicts.

As for your claim that it's not talking about everlasting destruction, I don't buy your argument at all. When Jesus spoke of "this age" and "the age to come", He differentiated between temporal things of this age and eternal things of the age to come (Luke 20:34-36). So, an age can be eternal.

I follow the teaching of the early church fathers like Gregory of Nyssa the father of fathers, and others who taught Apokatastasis the renewal of all things, not just a few or small amount.
I follow the teaching of the Holy Spirit by way of the authors of the Bible.

Why are you twisting scripture to fit your doctrine? You need to deal with scripture honestly. Philippians 2:10-11 absolutely does NOT say every tongue will GLADLY confess that Jesus is Lord. Those who do acknowledge Jesus is Lord in this lifetime when today is the day and now is the time of salvation (2 Corinthians 6:2) will not GLADLY confess that Jesus is Lord. They will SORROWFULLY confess that Jesus is Lord out of regret that they didn't do it when today was the day and now was the time of salvation. It will be too late for them at that point since that will be after the time during which today is the day and now is the time of salvation. With Him being before them in all His glory they will not be able to deny that He is Lord, but they will NOT confess that GLADLY. You are just making that up to fit your doctrine, which is unacceptable.

What did God force Paul to do there that was against his will? I'm not saying that God never interacts with man, but where are you getting the idea that God forced Paul to do anything against his will?
 
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Hoping2

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It brings glory to God, because it is only those who reject His way out of that destruction who will suffer eternally.
All those who heeded His call, will live in a new paradise.
 
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bling

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In my view, with lots of Biblical support, I have given in the past, the second death is annihilation. This is a lengthy subject, I might find a one-hour lecture on it. There are degrees of punishment depending on how bad you were like we find in the Old Law, but not degrees of reward.
The lost sheep did not fall off a cliff, die and have the shepherd bring it back to life.
BUT YES! God still Loves those who went to hell and annihilation, but they all refused His help to the point of no how ever accepting God's help/Love/Charity of their own free will choice, meaning that would have to be other likely alternatives, like humans find on earth with the likely alternative of being pleasure seekers. Tell me after leaving earth what likely alternative would a person be able to choose other than following God?
The reason God allows people to go to hell and/or annihilation is not out of vengeance, justice or to help them in some way, but God allows these seekers of pleasure to provide an example to those still willing to accept God's help to do it sooner than later. It help me with my choice, did it help you?
 
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Richard T

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I hope everyone considers this purpose of God. Eph 3:10 “To the intent that now the manifold wisdom of God might be made known by the church to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places.” The church (remnant) is showing all the fallen angels up. That Jesus the man (inferior) was able to defeat Satan and all the fallen angels. That while we (man) were created lower than angels that we know are joint heirs with Jesus and children of God. Saving mankind was quite a feat but showing up the fallen angels that an inferior man could have authority over them through Jesus and become children is the ultimate humiliation. Yes, many humans are lost in the process. Some think that is all God's fault. But these are individual decisions that God allows. A parent does not always stop an adult child from their bad decisions. Sure we might like them to make great career choices, go to church, love God and others but many don't turn out that way. God does make a way of escape and helps, but man has help themselve and find a way in God to overcome. It might seem like some tough tests and they are, but the gift is free. How good the warranty for heaven might be for those that misuse their position is often debated but praise God there is a way of some sorts in every Christian faith. (Admitedly, though some churches concentrating on law or works are likely misleading)

Unlike the fallen angels, humans are tested before going to heaven. God tested Jesus His own son to the max and He shows us the way. Christians too bare some responsibilities to the unsaved. Sometimes we have a chance to do more as a witness. Even worse, most Christians, myself included do things once in awhile that even hurt others from coming to Christ. Even doing nothing too hurts others who could be shown an open hand. It can be our giving, our witness, our hypocrisy etc. So the church is responsible to an extent of the impact they have in each generation.
I am glad we have a place we can share as these are tough ideas that can impede our witness. I guess the recommendation is to quit focusing so much on the thought that some will be lost and focus more on the one's that we can help lend and hand in bringing them to Christ.
 
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Ivan Hlavanda

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Romans 9 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?

God as a Creator can do with His creation as He pleases.

Everything God does is to His glory. God punishing sinners justly is God gloryfying Himself. Does He not have a right to punish us for our evil?

Yes, God knew we would sin. But that was our choice. We are fully reponsible for our choices. God created this world without sin, but through our disobedience, sin entered world and all the evil and suffering with it. We have only our selves to blame.

The question is not why God punishes sinners, the questions is, why does He save anyone at all? Because all we do is evil.

But God showed His love to us by sending His Son on the cross. And even though we deserve hell, He provided a way of salvation.

That's why God allowed us to fall, so He can show His mercy, but also His just wrath.

All my Christians life I'm hearing people questioning God, why does He does this, why He does that, why hell etc. But no one ever asks why does God allow good to those who do evil? And why don't humans obey God?

So God is supposed to love us, but all we do is evil and we don't love God. Doesn't seem fair to me!

All we do is judge God for what He does, but one day, He will judge all of us. And then what?
 
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Aseyesee

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To speak like a man that tills the ground … What was the reason for God creating anything at all to begin with …
 
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bèlla

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The Parable of the Sower explains it perfectly. Each soil explains the persons condition and choices. Four were mentioned and only one yielded a harvest. The others could have done the same but they didn’t. Only 25% were committed to the Lord and it should give us pause. The majority won’t make it.

~bella
 
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bling

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You cannot assume 25%, 25%, 25% and 25%. It could be 1%, 1%, !% and 97% and still fit the parable.
 
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bling

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You start out with Eph. 3:10 suggesting this is “God’s purpose”. Reading the context we find:

Eph. 3: 7 I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God’s grace given me through the working of his power. 8 Although I am less than the least of all the Lord’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the boundless riches of Christ, 9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. 10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, 11 according to his eternal purpose that he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord. 12 In him and through faith in him we may approach God with freedom and confidence. 13 I ask you, therefore, not to be discouraged because of my sufferings for you, which are your glory.

First off: The fallen angels are not the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realm.

Why would God need to go through all this to “help” hell bound angels?

There would be powerful good beings in heaven wondering why Gentiles were treated so differently from Jews prior to the cross and so replacing the Jewish nation with the Church we have the unity desired, the mystery is made known.

The “intent of the Church”, does not equal God’s overall purpose.
You might want to read my post 23.

We are not being “Tested” but are here to obtain and use a purely charitable undeserved gift, which must be humbly accepted of our own free will as charity.

We have the privilege and honor of being part of God’s work (allowing the Spirit to work through us) to bring others to Christ, so they can make an informed choice. We are in the presence with God when He is glorified and share in His glory that way.
 
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bling

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To speak like a man that tills the ground … What was the reason for God creating anything at all to begin with …
God huge Love would have compelled God to make being which He could shower with gifts to become like He is (Loving), this is at a huge sacrifice for God and really not worth it, but I'm glad He did it.
 
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I struggle with this. The older I get, the more I'm leaning towards Hell as purgative rather than eternal. Or, at least, every human being given the chance to trust in Christ, at some point, before they finally enter eternity. Maybe at the last moment of life, or in an in-between moment between life and death. Just a hope, but an increasingly meaningful and real one for me.

There are a couple of good blog posts about this that I've saved :



I agree Scripture seems to hint at a somewhat broader capacity for salvation in Christ than many folks assume. I hope that's true.
 
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Aseyesee

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God huge Love would have compelled God to make being which He could shower with gifts to become like He is (Loving), this is at a huge sacrifice for God and really not worth it, but I'm glad He did it.

Is it a sacrifice? or was this the only language man could relate to God in ...
 
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Jeff Saunders

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God punishing sinners justly, eternal hell with no chance of ever repenting is not just.
Most people on earth have never even had to chance to see God for who he really is in this life, I know this from my own experience I have had the privilege of smuggling Bibles into communist countries and they went to places that had no idea of Gods truth, for generations they were ignorant, and they should be burned forever because God had them born in a land that did not know him, that's crazy.
Fortunately God pursues us, not our mortal body, once the mortal body is dead they will stand before God and see him as he truly is and then, no man can reject the pure love of God, all will bend the knee and confess with their tongue that Jesus is Lord. If this scripture is true then God must pursue all even after their mortal body is dead.
Yes God does punish sinners but its for correction in the next age.
 
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Jeff Saunders

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To speak like a man that tills the ground … What was the reason for God creating anything at all to begin with …
God/Jesus/Spirit have had a love relationship from all of eternity, he created this whole thing to come into that love relationship with them.
God wanting a love that is the highest knew that it must be out of free will, but for his creation to have free will they must have a choice, so he allowed us to do evil, God can do nothing that is not out of love, its his essence and being, knew that if he allowed evil in it would cause all kinds of pain and misery, so the plan was to have Jesus take on human for and become human and to die as a sinless man, he became sin and took it into himself, this was the plan before God created the cosmos. Jesus bought all humanity back to God, its been 6000 years or so and the process is still going on. In the end as 1 Cor 15:28 God will be all in all. At the end God will create a new heaven and new earth and the old order will be gone and all things will be new, and we all will live with God in an never ending life with him.
That is why God made man.
 
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Jeff Saunders

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Even in my days of teaching the western way of church, it always bothered me that a God of love, that I had encountered could burn his loved one forever, but all we had was the English translation to read, now with the internet we can look at the Greek words and how they were used 2000 years ago, now we can see that others in the early church used different definitions for some words and that is what made me convinced that God will not torture or annihilate His beloved creation, it goes against his nature and character.
Christian Universal Redemption is the only lense for me to read the Bible and make sense of the whole story, now I have questions but not nearly as many as before.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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Ultimate Reconciliation
Annhilationism
Eternal Torment

All three views have flaws to them, until there is a view that accounts for all the questions that scripture raises .. this issue will inevitably be a divisive one.
 
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Jeff Saunders

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Ultimate Reconciliation
Annhilationism
Eternal Torment

All three views have flaws to them, until there is a view that accounts for all the questions that scripture raises .. this issue will inevitably be a divisive one.
It is only divisive if we let our understanding of the infinite God build walls against others, these same views were around at the start of the church but they didn't really divide each other till Christianity became a religion of Rome, that is where the divisions seem to have started and have only gotten worse from then on.
Division is a choice we make, its easier for me to not have division because I see all of humanity as part of Jesus's body and all are my brothers and sisters in Christ even if they don't know it yet. God is not divided and we are invited into that same union.
 
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