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How Does One Reconcile These Two Verses?

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leecappella

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Deuteronomy 22:5 - The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God.

and​
1Samuel 16:7 - But the LORD said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart.

It would seem in the first verse, God is concerned about the outward appearance of men and women. In the second verse, God does not look at the outward appearance. The point of my post should be clear. How do you reconcile these two verses? As is the case in most of my points, I have already made a decision about this. I am merely throwing seeds to the birds and curious as to what some of you have to say. Thanks.

Ps. I can think of one other verse comparison like this, but I will let you ponder this one awhile. Thanks again!
 

Metanoia02

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There is no need to reconcile these verses because they do not contradict each other.

The first verse say not to cross dress. The second states that the Lord sees what is on the inside, the heart.

The first verse is so that you will not be a stumbling block for someone else, precisiely because they can NOT see the intentions of your heart the way the Lord can.

Peace
 
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leecappella

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Metanoia02 said:
There is no need to reconcile these verses because they do not contradict each other.

me: I didn't specifically say they contradicted one another. I implied that they seemingly did. I agree. They do not contradict each other.

metanoia02: The first verse say not to cross dress. The second states that the Lord sees what is on the inside, the heart.

me: That seems evident, but the second verse says more than the Lord sees what is on the inside. In context, it is implying that we as humans judge others by outward appearances. In the text's case, one of the sons was considered because of how he looked outwardly. The text then goes on to say that God was not considering that one particular son. Although the outward appearance of that one son may have suggested he was the one, there was likely a heart issue there and God chose not to pick him. The verse distinguishes that we as humans often judge others outwardly while God does not do as we humans do. That is, God does not judge us from what we look like on the outside, as was the case in this text. God judges us on our hearts.

metanoia02: The first verse is so that you will not be a stumbling block for someone else, precisiely because they can NOT see the intentions of your heart the way the Lord can.

me: I'll have to say I disagree with you on your estimation, but I am nonetheless interested in how you came to your conclusion. One could be a stumblingblock for another in any number of ways. Paul ate food offered to idol while some others did not! Please explain, if you want, how you came to this understanding. You seem to make a connection between what is in one's heart and crossdressing. In part, there is a connection, but what is your reason for implying the connection?Thanks.
 
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Metanoia02

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Let's look at the verses in a different order, this might shed additional light.

We know definitively from the verse from 1 Sam that the Lord does not look at the external but judges a man by his heart. This theme is repeated numerous times in both the Old and New Testement.

If we are then to look at the verse from Deut. We know that cross dressing is an abomination to God. With the understanding that God does not judge by outward appearance, we then must ask, "what is the purpose of the prohabition against cross dressing?" We know that God is in no way confused or fooled by outward appearances. If God can not be fooled who could be harmed by this behavior? I think it would be logical to assume that humans who do not have the ability to judge the heart or motivation of a person, could be decieved by the way one dresses. To appear as something you are not is deceitful. We do not decieve God, but we decieve our fellow man. This is the abomination.
 
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leecappella

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Metanoia02: If we are then to look at the verse from Deut. We know that cross dressing is an abomination to God. With the understanding that God does not judge by outward appearance, we then must ask, "what is the purpose of the prohabition against cross dressing?"

me: Yes, what is the purpose for the prohibition of crossdressing?

Metanoia02: I think it would be logical to assume that humans who do not have the ability to judge the heart or motivation of a person, could be decieved by the way one dresses. To appear as something you are not is deceitful. We do not decieve God, but we decieve our fellow man. This is the abomination.[/QUOTE]

me: Again, in part, I agree with you. We do not have the ability to know and judge the heart of a persons. And, yes, it is possible to be decieved by the way one dresses. That is, if we judge someone by the way they dress. It is definitely deceitful to appear as something you are not, but if the one who is dressed in clothes of the opposite is honest about their true gender, that is not deceitful. I do not believe that crossdressing was prohibited and called an abomination because it makes one appear as something they are not. I believe it was prohibited for another reason entirely.
 
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look

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No, silly! The abomination is trying to effect a change in your nature by cross dressing, thus appearing to be a member of the opposite sex.

These two verses are from two completely different subjects...

One tells us that as far as God calling people to a position of ministry, (King or Priest, or any of the five-fold ministries) He looks at a person's heart, not their accomplishments or abilities. He will use a person who is not strong in himself so God's strength and power can be manifested...

Whereas, the other tells us the civil and religious laws that were to govern His people and the penalties for violating any of them...

Why would you post a question that would have the result of causing a person to link two totally disparate subjects together? If you don't mind me asking, are you trying to score points for the alternative lifestyle? I don't ask that in a mean-spirited way... :confused:
 
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water_ripple

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leecappella said:
Deuteronomy 22:5 - The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God.

and​
1Samuel 16:7 - But the LORD said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart.


I think what God is saying in the first verse is that He detests people lying to others. In the sense that a man in a woman's garb or a woman in a man's garb will decieve others into thinking they are of a certain gender.

I think what God is saying in the second verse is do not look at an outward apperance and judge a person. Only God knows the hearts of men and women.
 
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leecappella

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look: No, silly! The abomination is trying to effect a change in your nature by cross dressing, thus appearing to be a member of the opposite sex.

me: And what reference do you have to verify that that is what the abomination was? For that matter, wouldn't someone who is gay be deceiving others by presenting themselves as if they were not, and vice versa?

These two verses are from two completely different subjects...

look: One tells us that as far as God calling people to a position of ministry, (King or Priest, or any of the five-fold ministries) He looks at a person's heart, not their accomplishments or abilities. He will use a person who is not strong in himself so God's strength and power can be manifested...Whereas, the other tells us the civil and religious laws that were to govern His people and the penalties for violating any of them...

me: Oh! So, God only looks at a persons heart in certain situations, not in all? I disagree, if that is what you are saying.

look: Why would you post a question that would have the result of causing a person to link two totally disparate subjects together? If you don't mind me asking, are you trying to score points for the alternative lifestyle? I don't ask that in a mean-spirited way... :confused:[/QUOTE]

me: The reason for my post was to see how others reconcile these seeming contradictory verses. I like to know the methods of others and how they study the bible as opposed to merely reading the bible. I am in no position to 'score points' for those who are gay. I can only express my opinion, whether you agree or disagree. That's one of the reasons for this forum. I will post my thoughts in detail on the issue later.
 
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leecappella

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Here are my thoughts on the issue at hand on this post:

First, let's look at the meaning of the term 'abomination'. In my Strong's concordance, there are several number references. Let's take a look:

#8441-something morally disgusting;an abhorrent thing;especially idolatry or an idol.
(Verse ref.: Genesis 43:32 and Genesis 46:34)

#6292-fetid ie. ceremonially unclean.
(Verse ref.: Leviticus 7:18)
fetid=an offensive smell.

#8263-figuratively and specifically, an idolatrous object that is viewed as filthy and intensely loathed and polluted.
(Verse ref.: Leviticus 11:10 and 11)

There are several other Strong's number references, but I will stick with these. All of the others mean pretty much the same thing: to smell bad, offensive morally, to loathe, to morally detest, disgusting, filthy, idolatrous, an idol, a detestation, grossly wicked or villainous, etc. Some of these include the term 'abominable' as well. In regards to the two verses that are in my original post:

Deuteronomy 22:5 - The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God.


and​
1Samuel 16:7 - But the LORD said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart.

I believe that God is always One who judges an individual on their heart and never on their outward appearance. In the case of Deuteronomy 22:5, this is a part of the old testament law right along with the levitical law, which contains many abominations. You may ask, why would God be concerned about the outward appearance as He seems to be in Deuteronomy 22:5? My answer is in it's context!

The context of Leviticus is idolatry. All things in it are things the Canaanites partook in, but Israel was not to partake in. Notice in one of the Strong's references above, Leviticus 11:10:

"And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you".

The term 'abomination' in this verse refers to an idolatrous object. In this case, that object or objects are "all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters". Particular kinds of water living things were considered idolatrous objects and to be avoided. They were looked upon as filthy and polluted. Now, the definition says figuratively, so these living things, or whatever else was considered an idolatrous object or action, may not have been idolatrous specifically or in and of themselves, but only figuratively or metaphorically or symbolically. That is, they were symbols of idolatry, but not in and of themselves.Why? Because they were things idol worshippers partook of. Leviticus is filled with such things. In my studious opinion, these things reminded God of a people who rejected Him for foreign gods and goddesses. So, the things they did and partook of left a bad smell in His nostrils and only reminded Him of their spiritual adultery. If an idolator did it or ate it, it was to be rejected by Israel. Some things were not necessarily a sin in and of themselves (ie. eating certain foods, sewing two different seeds in the same field, shaving one's beard, etc.), but they were off limits to God's people. Cross dressing was one of them.

I have read and heard the history on eunuchs and the orgy-like antics and rituals of pagan idol worshippers who castrated themselves to appear more like women. Namely, more like their goddess Ashtoreth:

1Kings 11:5-For Solomon went after Ashtoreth the goddess of the Zidonians, and after Milcom the abomination of the Ammonites.

In this verse, Milcom is called the abomintion of the Ammonites. That is another way of saying, Milcom the idol of the Ammonites. In the case of Ashtoreth, her followers were known for being males who castrated themselves and dressed in female clothing that resembled her. They even wore masks made to look like her. Male temple prostitutes (ie. sodomites) were the males who did this. They would engage in sex with the male worshippers that came to sexually sacrifice to Ashtoreth. This puts a whole new meaning on 'lying with mankind as with womankind'. The levitical reference in 18:22 refers to, in my opinion, these types of sex acts. These acts are what 1Kings 14:24 refers to as well and is why they were cast out: Because of the sodomites and the 'abominations' they did. Since the context of Leviticus is idolatry and the term 'abomination' is known for its meaning of idolatry and an idol, it all makes sense to me. God is morally disgusted, detested, abhorred, etc. with these levitical things that the Canaanites did because they are associated with idolatry. Cross dressing was a part of idolatrous practices. In light of 1Samuel 16:7, God looks at the heart, but not only in certain circumstances. Always! The intentions and motives of those in biblical times to do the things previously mentioned with honor, glory, and praise to false gods, doesn't it make sense that God would be feel as He did towards these things? In my view, God was not addressing those we know today as crossdressers or those we know today as gays. His issue was idolatry and all that idolaters did with their hearts and actions towards another god. Why do you think it's called adultery? If you are married and your spouse cheats on you with another, would you want anything that reminds you of their affair around you? Most probably would not. It is my belief that God did not either and that is why He rejected all things associated with the affair of the idolators with other gods. Just my take on it!
 
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ZiSunka

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leecappella said:
Deuteronomy 22:5 - The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God.

and​
1Samuel 16:7 - But the LORD said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart.

It would seem in the first verse, God is concerned about the outward appearance of men and women. In the second verse, God does not look at the outward appearance. The point of my post should be clear. How do you reconcile these two verses? As is the case in most of my points, I have already made a decision about this. I am merely throwing seeds to the birds and curious as to what some of you have to say. Thanks.

Ps. I can think of one other verse comparison like this, but I will let you ponder this one awhile. Thanks again!

Two separate things taken out of context.

The first one is an adminition for women to be satisfied with being women.

The second is an admonition for people not appraise each other by their looks.
 
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leecappella

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Some of my responses are in the quote box also.

lambslove said:
Two separate things taken out of context.

me: Not taken out of context. Just taken out of the bible for discussion!

lalmbslove: The first one is an adminition for women to be satisfied with being women.

me: And what about the men?

lambslove: The second is an admonition for people not appraise each other by their looks.
me: The outward appearance is not merely about one's looks.
 
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look

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And a practicing homosexual or lesbian is still sinning!!!

When the Moasic Laws were written, out in the wilderness, they didn't have this form of abomination in their midst.

Another thing to consider is, Deuteronomy was written just before the entrance into the promised land, Canaan, about 1645 B.C.

1 and 2 Samuel was written by four different people between the years of 1204 to 1035 B.C.

Hmm, this means that there is no basis for your line of reasoning, because at the time the law against cross-dressing was written, (including laying with the same sex, as the opposite sex) the children of Israel did not have any of those "temple prostitutes". They would not have been able to take any of the promised land, if they had allowed any of those type of people to live in their midst!!!

I knew this sounded as if this thread would take a turn in this direction, and you (leecappella) have confirmed it. You need to take your thoughts out of here and go over to "General Apologetics" where they belong...

Nice try, though.
 
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Actually, I would say that both verses are discussing what is going on inside a person. In the verse about not dressing as the opposite sex, we can't say it's about decieving others necessarily, because then we would have to say that dressing up in costumes for halloween would be sinful. Consider that the fruit we produce in our lives all stem from our true desires and heart. Sinful desires, bad fruit or actions. The Lord is commanding us not to dress as the opposite sex, because it stems from the inner desire to be/identify with the opposite sex. That is a problem. The outward appearance stems from the inner desire. Same with the verse about how the Lord judges the heart - it doesn't mean He's blind to outward appearances - it means He can see the root of desires, and the heart of man, and that is what he chooses to look at. In both cases, the inner desires are the central issue.
 
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TheOriginalWhitehorse

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leecappella said:
Deuteronomy 22:5 - The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God.

and​
1Samuel 16:7 - But the LORD said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart.

It would seem in the first verse, God is concerned about the outward appearance of men and women. In the second verse, God does not look at the outward appearance. The point of my post should be clear. How do you reconcile these two verses? As is the case in most of my points, I have already made a decision about this. I am merely throwing seeds to the birds and curious as to what some of you have to say. Thanks.

Ps. I can think of one other verse comparison like this, but I will let you ponder this one awhile. Thanks again!

For a man to wear women's clothing is a manifestation of the condition of his heart. It says he is in rebellion against the laws of God and the natural laws He created. But if you are to look and say some man will not be a good leader because he is short and not very good looking, this is not the way GOd judges. He looks at a man to see if he is obedient and holy. A man who wears women's clothes is neither obedient, nor holy.
 
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water_ripple

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leecappella said:
First, let's look at the meaning of the term 'abomination'. In my Strong's concordance, there are several number references. Let's take a look:

#8441-something morally disgusting;an abhorrent thing;especially idolatry or an idol.
(Verse ref.: Genesis 43:32 and Genesis 46:34)

#6292-fetid ie. ceremonially unclean.
(Verse ref.: Leviticus 7:18)
fetid=an offensive smell.

#8263-figuratively and specifically, an idolatrous object that is viewed as filthy and intensely loathed and polluted.
(Verse ref.: Leviticus 11:10 and 11)
In this sense since God says that it is wrong for a woman to wear a man's garb and vice versa couldn't the act of wearing opposite gender clothing be considered as an idol? #8263-figuratively and specifically, an idolatrous object that is viewed as filthy and intensely loathed and polluted.(Verse ref.: Leviticus 11:10 and 11) An idol that a person worships above God or more directly loves more than God?i.e. even though He says not to do this we do it anyway and enjoy?

On the subject of not judging others according to how they appear, this is not the right of human kind. This right belongs soley to God. For it is His eyes only that can see the righetousness of the heart. It is not our place as humans to pass judgement(and I am not attempting to pass judgement). It is our responsiblity as the children of God to spread His word, not to attempt to confuse others with verses that would say I will live a lifestyle not condoned by God. It means to be peaceable to others and not to spread hate. It does not condone however, a lifestyle of cross dressing. We are to be loving toward our fellow people and break down barriers of hate. We are not to confuse and make hate burn hotter. It is the job of humankind to love all of God's children and reserve our judgements. God is the one who judges. Lashing out at those who judge on outward apperances or those who wrong onself is only a natural human reaction. But, as Christians we are taught to rise above our hateful notions and love. Submit to the will of God. Hate, anger, and resentment do not breed love. These actions distroy and are the powerful tools used by satan to destroy the brotherhood of man.
 
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TheOriginalWhitehorse

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water_ripple said:
In this sense since God says that it is wrong for a woman to wear a man's garb and vice versa couldn't the act of wearing opposite gender clothing be considered as an idol? #8263-figuratively and specifically, an idolatrous object that is viewed as filthy and intensely loathed and polluted.(Verse ref.: Leviticus 11:10 and 11) An idol that a person worships above God or more directly loves more than God?i.e. even though He says not to do this we do it anyway and enjoy?

On the subject of not judging others according to how they appear, this is not the right of human kind. This right belongs soley to God. For it is His eyes only that can see the righetousness of the heart. It is not our place as humans to pass judgement(and I am not attempting to pass judgement). It is our responsiblity as the children of God to spread His word, not to attempt to confuse others with verses that would say I will live a lifestyle condoned by God. It means to be peaceable to others and not to spread hate. It does not condone however, a lifestyle of cross dressing. We are to be loving toward our fellow people and break down barriers of hate. We are not to confuse and make hate burn hotter. It is the job of humankind to love all of God's children and reserve our judgements. God is the one who judges. Lashing out at those who judge on outward apperances or those who wrong onself is only a natural human reaction. But, as Christians we are taught to rise above our hateful notions and love. Submit to the will of God. Hate, anger, and resentment do not breed love. These actions distroy and are the powerful tools used by satan to destroy the brotherhood of man.

Ouch. Actually, the Bible doesn't say this. There is no brotherhood of man. There is the fellowship of God's people, though.
 
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water_ripple

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Whitehorse said:
Ouch. Actually, the Bible doesn't say this. There is no brotherhood of man. There is the fellowship of God's people, though.

I am sorry for inflicting pain. I do not understand how this has hurt and I would appreciate a response as to why you were hurt. I noticed in my previous post read something like "I will not live a lifestyle condoned by God." I have edited this accordingly to the effect of(I cannot see this wording on my screen) "I will not live a lifestyle not condoned by God." This was due to a typo or me getting ahead of myself.

I thought all people were God's children. In this respect every person is entiltled to love without human judgement. I apologize if I used the wrong words.
 
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leecappella

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look: And a practicing homosexual or lesbian is still sinning!!!

me: I disagree! Note, I am disagreeing with you, not God.

look: When the Moasic Laws were written, out in the wilderness, they didn't have this form of abomination in their midst.

look: Another thing to consider is, Deuteronomy was written just before the entrance into the promised land, Canaan, about 1645 B.C.

look: 1 and 2 Samuel was written by four different people between the years of 1204 to 1035 B.C.

me: That is already understood but irrelevant to me. What does it matter if the book of Samuel mentions this heart vs outward appearance thing between the years 1204 and 1035 b.c.? It's not like God's view of the heart vs the outward appearance is only applicable during those years! It is God's character and, thus, was God's character before those dates.

look: Hmm, this means that there is no basis for your line of reasoning, because at the time the law against cross-dressing was written, (including laying with the same sex, as the opposite sex) the children of Israel did not have any of those "temple prostitutes". They would not have been able to take any of the promised land, if they had allowed any of those type of people to live in their midst!!!

me: Not sure of what your point is here. True, the sodomites (ie temple prostitutes) were driven out of the land by God for Israel, but I'm still not getting your point. The prohibition against these things was given prior to driving them out as God had instructed the children of Israel that he would do in Leviticus 18:24 (hebrew future tense) and as he had already done in 1Kings 14:24 (hebrew past tense).

look: I knew this sounded as if this thread would take a turn in this direction, and you (leecappella) have confirmed it. You need to take your thoughts out of here and go over to "General Apologetics" where they belong... Nice try, though.[/QUOTE]
me: General Apologetics=The branch of theology that is concerned with defending or proving the truth of Christian doctrines with non-believers.

Okay! And why do my thoughts need to go there? Am I trying to prove the truth of Christian doctrines with non-believers? Have I failed because you don't agree with me? Opposing you is not a crime before God:yawn:
 
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