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It happens. I've done it. Take your time.Oh ok. Sorry about that. Apparently I thought I was responding to another of David's posts to me and didn't notice it was you. I needed more coffee I guess, lol. Gimme a few and I'll give you a proper response. Or go ahead and ask your questions.
Matthew 13 actually tells us just the opposite. The weeds are removed first.Actually it is not.
Jesus and the angels are coming to the earth for the final harvest. Matthew 13
"Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels."
Jesus is literally on the earth redeeming lost souls. The church has already been removed. Jesus gave you the interpretation of the parable. Jesus also claimed in Matthew 25, that He would be sitting on a throne in Jerusalem, and the angels would be gathering people out of all nations to stand in judgment. The Second Coming brings Jesus and the angels to the earth, while removing the church from the earth.
That is the reason why the church is not here on earth during the final harvest.
Actually it is not.
Jesus and the angels are coming to the earth for the final harvest. Matthew 13
"Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels."
Jesus is literally on the earth redeeming lost souls. The church has already been removed. Jesus gave you the interpretation of the parable. Jesus also claimed in Matthew 25, that He would be sitting on a throne in Jerusalem, and the angels would be gathering people out of all nations to stand in judgment. The Second Coming brings Jesus and the angels to the earth, while removing the church from the earth.
That is the reason why the church is not here on earth during the final harvest.
Just posted what the word says.1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
If you have this event happening first, can you not see that the text indicates so shall we ever be with the Lord? Yet, you have the church physically one place and have Christ physically another place, which then contradicts--- and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Not to mention, what happens if we factor the following in as well?
John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
How does what you are proposing equal this---that where I am, there ye may be also?
That point of interest was that Peter's mention of the day of the Lord coming as a thief (2 Pet. 3:10) is not referring to
the time 1260 days mentioned in Revelation 12:6.
Peter's application of the day of the Lord coming as a thief is 1260 days + 1,000 years + "a little while" (Rev. 20:3, 7) afterwards His parousia spoken in the other verses I mentioned about "a thief " or "a thief in the night."
First tell me if you do not agree that 2 Pet. 3:10 pertains not to the end of the twelve hundred and sixty days mentioned in Rev. 12:6.
That aside then since I'm not actually promoting soul sleep as of yet, just pondering it's possibility for now, assuming you read my other posts in this thread, what are your thoughts involving what I posted per post #75 and post #80? As to post #75, do you still think Pretribbers are making better sense out of the Jewish wedding customs than Post-tribbers are? Apparently, you do. Therefore, you maybe need to explain why you do, despite that the author of that article pointed out, Pretribbers are making havoc of the Jewish wedding customs per their interpretations.
As to post #80, do Pretribbers take the Pretrib rapture to be meaning the last trump involving 1 Corinthians 15:51-57? Because, like I pointed out, unless Pretribbers take it to involve the last trump, no one can put on bodily immortality in the meantime. This obviously presents a major problem for Pretrib if the Pretrib rapture is not meaning this same last trump in question. It would mean the church is being translated to heaven in mortal bodies rather than immortal bodies, as if that is reasonable or something. No it's not reasonable, because even Christ Himself, when He ascended into heaven, He did not do that in a mortal body, He did that in an immortal body.
The Parousia begins with the secretive rapture of those who are ready, watching, and vigilantly abiding in His presence pre-great tribulation time. The Parousia begins with Jesus rapturing them suddenly as a minority and remnant not to the but to the thirds heavens.I think it's easy to confuse the two events (Rapture/2nd Coming) as one event. But they are two events. The Parousia is the 2nd Coming and the Rapture is not, He comes for His bride alone. 2nd Coming = Jesus returns to the earth...Rapture = He comes in the air and we meet Him there.
Thankyou. But this event Peter speaks of is at least one thousand years plus whatever "little while" Satan is loosed from his thousand year2 Peter 3:10-14
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
(Footnote (2nd Peter
- 3:10 Other manuscripts read will be burned up; one early manuscript reads will be found destroyed.)
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
You have many joyful days ahead of you thento thoroughly dive into all the details of what Revelation reveals.14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless....KJV
Now I'm no Rabbi but this is something I have studied quite a bit about the rapture because of so much disagreement about it. I admit that I have not studied Revelation near as much as the rest of the scriptures but I'll take a whack at it.
I did read your comments here. I reserve response now. Maybe latter.If you keep on reading past verse 10 you will see in v12 it mentions the day of God, not the same phrasing as v10. Why would that be? (He just might be refrencing something else?!) The chapter sounds like instructions to live in peace, without spot or blemish and blameless Which in other scriptures is how the bride will be, without spot or blemish. (She has mad e herself ready and washed her clothes and is withut spot or blemish. (This qualifies her to be raptured.)
Geez, in v16 it says:
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction..../KJV
So I incline towrds disagreeing that the 1260 days is talking about the bride in Revelation 12:6. In v1 of that chapter it tells you who it is talking about. It does sound like there is some symbolism going on but I think it is clear that it's not talking about, her, the Bride. Many of God's people will be left behind in the raoture because they are not ready yet and need more refining and learning. I think that is a refrence to those remaing christians upon the earth after the rapture who are caught up in the 1260 days of the great tribulation.
Starting to get long, I'll stop here but I have a lot more to say, lol.
Then the Parousia continues as this minority of resurrected and then living remnant accompany Christ down from the third heavens
to hover over the earth, near the earth in a cloudy pavillion. The majority of saints who were not taken pre-tribulation who are living
will pass through the great-tribulation to be taken "to the air" visibly at the end of the three and one half year time.
Therefore the Parousia extends from the first pre-tribulation secretive rapture through the great tribulation until the open rapture
at the end of the great tribulation. So there is not one taking up in rapture. There is more than one. This is what most students of
the Bible miss. Some who have seen this have been referred to as being of the school of Selective Rapture.
I get to a secretive pre great tribulation rapture easily.I agree with most of your post except this here. I don't how you got here from which scriptures. SO I'ma chew on this for a bit.
I get to a secretive pre great tribulation rapture easily.
I get to a public post tribulation rapture with logic applied to other verses.
But here is a little corner study of the matter. In Revelation 14 the total crop of God is divided into
Firstfruits and Harvest. Read the chapter today and notice how it is arranged.
Verses 1 - 5 is about fruits that mature and ripen EARLY and first - Firstfruits.
They are seen having been raptured to Heaven before the following events of the great tribulation.
Verses 6-7 is about the angel in the sky supernaturally announcing an eternal gospel to fear God the Creator.
This is during the great tribulation as Antichrist proclaims that he is god.
This eternal gospel warns all on earth that only God the Creator of the heavens and earth is the God to be worshipped.
And the resulting calamities in the cosmos are warnings that His judgement upon the world is coming.
And I saw another angel flying in mid-heaven, having an eternal gospel to announce to those dwelling on the earth, even to every nation and tribe and tongue and people,
Saying with a loud voice, Fear God and give Him glory because the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who has made heaven and earth and the sea and the springs of waters. (vs. 6,7)
Verse 8 is about God indirectly using by His sovereignty to destruction of apostate Christiandom. In other words Antichrist's
hatred for the apostate Christiandom, particularly the Roman Catholic Church and all her Reformation "daughters" who came out of her.
This destruction of apostate Christiandom occurs at the beginning of the great tribulation when Antichrist exalts himself that he alone
is God and attacks to destroy any other object of worship.
And another angel, a second one, followed, saying, Fallen, fallen is Babylon the Great, who has made all the nations drink of the wine of the fury of her fornication!
Verses 9-12 is the warning to those who are left on earth not to succumb to the threats of Antichrist.
Though many will die under his persecution, they faithfully rather be maytred than take his mark or number.
Verses 14-16 is reaping of Christ of the Harvest of believers who passed THROUGH this great tribulation and ripened through it.
This is the public rapture of the majority which most are familiar with. But the key to understanding is that they all are
the crop of Jesus - Firstfruits who were ready to rapture early and Harvest who were made ready for rapture by the time
of the end of the great tribulation. Firstfruits and Harvest are about the growth and development of Christ's life
within people.
Verses 17-20 are about the final battle where Christ vanquishes the grapes of wrath at Armageddon.
So in this chapter 14 we have an overview of the last days as corner study or window.
Basically - and early rapture BEFORE the great tribulation.
This followed by the major events of the great tribulation.
This followed by a rapture of the remaining crop at the end of the great tribulation (plus the battle at Armageddon).
Firstfruits are raptured as before the great tribulation starts as early matured ones. These are a remnant and minority.
Harvest is the rapture of those who ripened under the heat of the great tribulation. These are the rest and majority.
The Parousia begins with the secretive rapture of those who are ready, watching, and vigilantly abiding in His presence pre-great tribulation time. The Parousia begins with Jesus rapturing them suddenly as a minority and remnant not to the but to the thirds heavens.
That is not the same event. That is at the end of the great tribulation at the last trumpet.Hardly secret. 1Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
So you are saying when Jesus says "all in the tombs" He really meant some in the tombs?One of the important things we need to do when reading God`s word, or the newspaper etc is to find out `who is talking to whom. ` All your John scriptures reveal that Jesus was talking to the Jews regarding their resurrection - the last day.
Because you have kept the word of My endurance, I also will keep you out of the hour of trial, which is about to come on the whole inhabited earth, to try them who dwell on the earth. (Rev. 3:10)
It is a promise of rapture to those who have learned to keep the word of His endurance through daily trials.
Not being a Greek to English translator I will reserve that recommendation to those better qualified.endurance actually translates as patience in the original language. And we know what the word is, His Logos, the written word. It sounds like He is almost calling it the word of His patience to us...
Might that be a better translation of it? He is very patient and longsuffering so all we have to do is obey! Obey everything in the word.
All believers in Jesus, dead or alive at the time.We know from 1 Thess. that the rapture takes place almost simultaneously when Jesus raises His physically dead believers up out of their graves. All those who are in their graves are actually caught up first, then those who are still alive in their physical bodies at that time, and on that day get caught up right after them.
So we can clearly see that the rapture takes place on the day of the resurrection of all His saints who have died(as far as their physical existence is concerned) in Him.
Not sure what your problem is? If the Rapture happens at the last day and that is before the last seven years how is that a problem? That does not mean there are no more days after that. It means that is called the last day. That is not the only time people will be raised up I would think. If Jesus returned down TO the earth after the seven years was over, there would be untold millions of new believers that would need to join us who were taken up before that time. Then at the end of the 1000 years, after that, more saints need rescuing before the whole world is burned up and a new earth created for us. Then even after the millennial saints are rescued, everyone else that ever lived are raised to stand before GodSo when did Jesus tell us several times that He is going to “raise the dead”?
Jhn 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Jhn 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Jhn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Jhn 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
Jhn 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
Wow, this must be too simple for a lot of people to understand?
This is absolutely false. Jesus was not just talking about the resurrection of the Jews in John 6, but rather all of those who believe in Him whether Jew or Gentile.Hi William,
One of the important things we need to do when reading God`s word, or the newspaper etc is to find out `who is talking to whom. ` All your John scriptures reveal that Jesus was talking to the Jews regarding their resurrection - the last day.
If we're currently "at" the last day then does that mean you think that the dead are already being resurrected since Jesus said He will resurrect the dead who believed in Him at the last day (John 6:40)?Not "on" the last day, but "at" the last day. We currently are "at" the last day, right before the millennium starts.
In what sense would "the last day" actually be the last day in that scenario? In other words, why would it be called "the last day" if there are many days after that?All believers in Jesus, dead or alive at the time.
Not sure what your problem is? If the Rapture happens at the last day and that is before the last seven years how is that a problem? That does not mean there are no more days after that. It means that is called the last day.
You would think? Should you go by what you think or by what scripture teaches? What did Jesus say about this?That is not the only time people will be raised up I would think.
If Jesus returned down TO the earth after the seven years was over, there would be untold millions of new believers that would need to join us who were taken up before that time. Then at the end of the 1000 years, after that, more saints need rescuing before the whole world is burned up and a new earth created for us. Then even after the millennial saints are rescued, everyone else that ever lived are raised to stand before God
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