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How does one know anything via faith?

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Chris B

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This is where the faith vs. divine faith distinction becomes particularly important. When you use the word "epistemology" in the OP you presumably mean a natural epistemology that operates apart from grace. Divine faith can certainly not be understood as an epistemology in that sense. It does not claim to be naturalistic.
Very true, but it is itself behaving as an epistemological grounding.
It is holding that "true knowledge" is something that can be known (as a divine gift) through faith (in the reality of the message that God is there and can impart such knowledge.)

This to a person of faith provides a modality of knowing...
I was using sight so I saw it.
I was using touch so I felt it.
I was using faith so ... I know it without seeing or touching it.

But being human means that the first two are not *perfectly* reliable.
(Hindus and Buddhists commonly refer to the error of seeing a rope and thinking it a snake. Touch is perhaps less easily fooled or misinterpreted, but it is very possible.)
Now is faith, working by this idea, proof from error or subject to it?
From within faith the question is of course settled, subjectively, for most individuals.
This doesn't help an awful lot from the outside, or from a detached position.
And clearly it is possible for a human being to have absolute and sincere faith (trust, conviction, commitment...) in something which is not true, not real. Examples abound without having to go anywhere near theological beliefs and their variety.
Why is faith allowed the exception from error?
Is that bound up in the nature of faith itself, which at least in some forms positively rules out faith self-doubting and self-examining?


Traditionally divine faith has been understood as an act of the intellect, albeit moved to assent by the will. Thus it is sui generis in its relation to the intellect and will. Yet recent times have seen a movement away from the intellectual, truth-oriented nature of faith (at least in liberal forms of Christianity). Such Christians would not want to associate faith with knowledge even in a loose sense.

"... as an act of the intellect; albeit..." That rang a bell.
St Thomas Aquinas.
"..for since to believe is an act of the intellect, assenting to the truth at the command of the will..."
Summa Theologica.
But this has to sit within Aquinas' framework of thought, not taken in isolation, because close to this we find:
"... since nothing false can be the object of faith, as was proved above,..." something I would profoundly disagree about unless, once more, the content of the word "faith" has varied without outward show.
("faith sense 4", "faith sense 2", would at least point up that differences exist.)

Soren Kierkegaard: [Faith] "an objective uncertainty held fast in an appropriation-process of the most passionate inwardness."

This from a philosophy textbook which, discussing faith, cites nine statements concerning faith, at least four of which contradict others in major ways.
It's not easy being the word and concept, "faith".

Chris
 
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Colter

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Some have posited faith as an epistemology here; that you can know something through faith in it.

For those making that claim, I have a simple question.

If you hold on faith that a particular god exists, and I hold on faith that your particular god does not exist, how do we determine which one of us is right? We cannot both be right; one of us must be wrong. But how, using faith, can we determine which of the two of us is in the wrong?

I see faith as the kind of trust a child has in a parent, while eventually the earth parent is found to be imperfect, the Universal Father is never wrong. God is a person and through faith we can know him.


"Faith is a living attribute of genuine personal religious experience. One believes truth, admires beauty, and reverences goodness, but does not worship them; such an attitude of saving faith is centered on God alone, who is all of these personified and infinitely more." UB
 
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Colter

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Where did I say that it was a lie?


You made a sweeping accusation about the motives of people who have living faith who cannot explain the inexplicable.

You claimed "Faith is an attempt to avoid having to justify one's claims; an attempt to exempt those claims from criticism."

I asked is that all your faith was when you were a Christian? Are you projecting what you were onto everyone else?
 
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Archaeopteryx

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You made a sweeping accusation about the motives of people who have living faith who cannot explain the inexplicable.

You claimed "Faith is an attempt to avoid having to justify one's claims; an attempt to exempt those claims from criticism."

I asked is that all your faith was when you were a Christian? Are you projecting what you were onto everyone else?
That's not how I would have described my faith at the time, no.
 
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paul becke

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Some have posited faith as an epistemology here; that you can know something through faith in it.

For those making that claim, I have a simple question.

If you hold on faith that a particular god exists, and I hold on faith that your particular god does not exist, how do we determine which one of us is right? We cannot both be right; one of us must be wrong. But how, using faith, can we determine which of the two of us is in the wrong?

You misunderstand. Christian faith is not an intelligence test but a test of our will, which is reflected in divinely-inspired wisdom (there is no other), the seat of which has always been understood to be the heart, although clearly it is not co-terminous with that organ of flesh and blood.

Were it not so, we might, indeed we almost certainly would, find the likes of Dr Mengele as a companion of ours in heaven - assuming we, ourselves, leave room for God's mercy. It must be borne in mind ,therefore, that what the secular version of intelligence defines potentially encompasses the deepest idiocy and darkest malice. In fact, in order for it to have positive value, the analytical, essentially worldly, intelligence must be founded and suffused with the light of the Holy Spirit. In other words, we know what we want to know - the philosophical school of voluntarism. This is made clear throughout the Bible. And indeed there are reasons to believe that we all know God exists, and even existed before we were born in this world.

It's not at all uncommon for otherwise quite sophisticated atheists to say, 'Well if I were God, I wouldn't allow such horrible things to happen!' What I call their 'argument from petulance'. In fact, it has been found that atheists are more bitter about God than believers. Of course, if they didn't believe God exists, they wouldn't get so emotional about it. Atheism is a fundamentalist religion; agnosticism, evidently not fundamentalist.

However, secular knowledge-faith forms a continuum corresponding with space-time. An example of secular knowledge-faith would be: When I come into a room, I cannot be certain that when I switch on the wall-switch, the light will come on, but I know it is highly likely and act accordingly. The conduct of our lives is founded on such faith-knowledge (I prefer this order), itself based on our everyday experience. Much of the time, we don't even need to to have such personal experience. I don't need to go to the US to know it exists and where it is situated on the globe. Indeed, without accepting the authority of a certain common knowledge, I could delude myself that having crossed the Atlantic and landed in New York, it was all an elaborate con. Without accepting a modicum of authority regarding much of our knowledge would then lead to such a potentially infinite regress.

A Christian faith-knowledge continuum corresponds with our secular one; they co-inhere, informing each other. However, when we, Christians, are 'under the blackjack', so to speak, being sorely tried, the temptation to discard our faith-knowledge concerning Christ and his teachings will manifest in our sorry wee hearts!

But since this life is not a (secular) intelligence test, but a spiritual one, the bottom line is that faith, as credence, hardly comes into it. As James says in his epistle, the devils believe and tremble. So, faith in the Christian sense implies a considerable element of commitment, the nature of which has changed in different epochs. In Jesus' own day, he would have been regarded by the religious authorities as no better than a trouble-making, indigent, itinerant preacher, and hence not 'respectable' in their eyes, 'not one of us duly-accredited, official custodians of the Law, but a rogue and a vagabond.' Worse, he seemed to be a sworn enemy of theirs, and the people, 'the riff-raff' in their eyes, were threatened with banishment form the Synagogue, which would have been no small blow to them in such a small, theocratic society, irrespective of their personal piety.

So, God's Judgment concerns primarily our heart, not our head, our wisdom, not our worldly, analytical intelligence, but our unitive spiritual wisdom. In the next life, no-one will lack for any analytical intelligence, a severely mentally-retarded person in this life being in no wise less intelligent than an Einstein.
 
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Colter

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That's not how I would have described my faith at the time, no.
Ok, fair enough. It just sounded like you were saying that if we can't give a satisfactory answer it's because we have something to hide as opposed to something we can't entirely explain.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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Ok, fair enough. It just sounded like you were saying that if we can't give a satisfactory answer it's because we have something to hide as opposed to something we can't entirely explain.
Not at all. I'm not assuming from the outset that someone who has faith is lying. That would be an uncharitable interpretation. I assume they are sincere in their belief.
 
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SkyWriting

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But how, using faith, can we determine which of the two of us is in the wrong?

You mean what kind of scale should you use to weigh the height of something? I don't see how your going to hear what you've written.
 
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JJM

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Sorry that this is late.

Since there is no good place within the flow of the reply for the following I'd like to start by stepping back for a second and briefly outline how human epistemology functions before proceeding. The following is largely the opinion championed and made prevalent in the modern era by Blessed Henry Cardinal Newman, but I do not believe that I lifted it initially from him directly. The human person comes to conclusions by considering probabilities between to logically opposing propositions (X and ~X). These conclusions come in the form of institutions as to the level of probability. Newman calls this the illative sense. Even within the context of formal logic, these intuitions are the source of our basic propositions, our acceptance of the legitimacy of a basing relation, and that a basing relation is functioning. Absolute epistemic certainty accrues only when the epistemic probability of X is actually 100% and ~X 0%. Justification accrues when based upon the circumstances both epistemic and otherwise it is morally legitimate for a subject to ascent to a proposition.

What is faith?

First I want to say that, except insofar as "faith" can some times mean the content of a religion or the religion itself, which is clearly not what we are here discussing, in a religious context "faith" always entails some sort of trust. The definition you give of faith only became prominent in the 17th or 18th centuries and was largely defunct by the end of the 19th century. It was also principally a definition used by opponents of religion. I return to my previous statement that perhaps you are not or have not been sufficiently ensconced in religion to really understand how the term functions. This is largely an assumption I admit. I do not know your history. To prove my point, I simply Googled "what is faith". Here are quotations from every listing on the first page with the exception of Wikipedia, who in my opinion has significant legal failures in its licensing schema:

"It was by faith that Abraham was made able to become a father, because he trusted God to do what he had promised." https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews+11&version=NCV

"faith in the testimony and authority of others whom we can trust . . . faith with respect to a thousand things which we take on trust" http://biblehub.com/hebrews/11-1.htm

"This definition of faith contains two aspects: intellectual assent and trust." http://www.gotquestions.org/definition-of-faith.html

"Perhaps the best word we can use to translate the Greek word “pistis” (usually translated faith) is the word “trust” or “trustworthy.” Suppose you tell a friend that you have faith in her. What does that mean? It means two things. First, you are sure the person you are talking to actually exists. And second, you are convinced she is trustworthy; you can believe what she says and trust in her character." http://rzim.org/a-slice-of-infinity/what-is-faith-2

"Faith is belief with strong conviction; firm belief in something for which there may be no tangible proof; complete trust in or devotion to." http://christianity.about.com/od/glossary/g/faith.htm

"We began with Hebrews 11:6 stating, “Without faith it is impossible to please God.” God wants you to learn to rely on Him—to trust Him completely in everything! You really do not have a choice if you want to please Him. Like any human father, God does not want you to fret, worry and agonize over your needs. In numerous places throughout His Word, He promises to provide for you in all circumstances. He will always take care of you. Do not doubt! Believe God! Trust Him! Wait on Him! Expect Him to keep all of His promises—and He will! Faith is your evidence!" http://rcg.org/books/wirf.html

"Faith in God is more than a theoretical belief in Him. To have faith in God is to trust Him, to have confidence in Him, and to be willing to act on your belief in Him." http://www.mormon.org/faq/what-is-faith

"The New Strong’s Expanded Dictionary of Bible Word says, 'Pistis is used of belief with the predominate idea of trust (or confidence) whether in God or in Christ, springing from faith in the same. "Faith" means trust, confidence, assurance, and belief'" http://lifehopeandtruth.com/change/faith/what-is-faith/

"'The main sense of the word 'faith' in the NT is that of trust or reliance... [Pistis] bears the sense not of faithfulness alone, but of the reliance and trust that is the basis of man's faithfulness, i.e., the faithfulness that expresses confidence in the faithfulness of God' (International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, Vol. 2, 1982, article, 'Faith')."http://www.freebiblestudyguides.org/bible-map/what-is-faith.htm

Enough with the shock and awe lets get to the numbers (and I know this is an insufficient data set but it's the amount of effort I'm willing to put into it). Having given these a cursory reading, 9/9 say that faith involves trust of some kind. 8/9 say/imply that it is principally trust and the ninth may imply that it can be simply trust. 6/9 say/imply that the primary object of this trust is not a proposition but a person, namely God. 5 of those 6 say/imply that propositional faith functions as a result of this personal faith, and the sixth says that at least in relation to the proposition "God is" its functions in principally important for the purpose of personal faith. only 4/9 couch it in terms of epistemic weakness and only 1/9 possibly implies that it lacks warrant. In short religious faith, as I have been saying, is not principally belief in a proposition and most importantly is not principally a belief in an unwarranted proposition.

Faith is principally trust. As such it is chiefly not an intellectual act though it will involve the intellect, but chiefly an act of the will. Trust can be put in persons, objects, or the truth of propositions. Christian faith at least is principally a trust in God as a person. The belief in any given proposition is largely a result of and/or in the service of this faith in the person. Insofar as it does pertain to the truth of a proposition faith is identical to belief. In this regard it is necessary for the holding of propositions. As you pointed out, yes we all have faith (at least though of us who haven't completely spiraled into a pit of sceptical despair). Insofar as assent is an act of the will faith is often reserved for that assent which are less certain as they require a greater act of the will and thus "more" faith. However not being certain and not being warranted are not the same thing. Still absolute certainty require faith just by a lesser act of the will. Still even if that were not the case, excluding a supernatural infallible faculty, which we will get to later, humans lack the capacity to know anything with absolute certainty, at least in this life, and thus must always act on faith. Your faith is not religious faith because it does not pertain to religious objects. The fact that Western Christians often imply that a supernatural aid is necessary to gain Christian faith is accidental to the faith itself. It is as though I were not capable of climbing stair and need to be carried by someone to get to the second floor. Being on the second floor is in no way defined by my needing to carried up the stairs. Still some times the word "faith" is used secondarily to refer to the means or aid by which we attain faith proper.

It is the use of faith in this manner which I was alluding to in number 4. Personally I'm opposed to using the word faith in manner (especially of the first kind), but I acknowledge it is often done and if The Cadet is to understand what these people are saying then he would need to understand it in this manner. Part of my initial response was to suggest that The Cadet may not be understanding those who suggest faith leads to knowledge because he does not understand what they mean by "faith" and how they understand it to lead to knowledge.

As I alluded to there are two basic ways that faith in this poor sense can be seen to function. The first is by a strengthening and guiding our our own natural capacities. This is typically seen with regard to strengthening at least as ultimately correcting the ills caused to our natural epistemic faculties caused by the Fall. Imagine two people are on some sort of survivalist television show and are expected to race through the wilderness from point A to point B, but one has been taking performance enhancing drugs and has the filmcrew constantly manipulating the situation in his favor. What the two will be doing is essentially the same, and the manner of judging between them will be essentially the same, but one will be at a distinct advantage. Likewise one person (A) whose faculties have been helped can argue with one (B) whose have not, because A is just doing normal reasoning, but unless B is capable of keeping up A will not be convincing to B. If their intuitive faculties are functioning differently then there remains no middle ground. B intuits one set of probabilities from the situation and A another. This is why your proposed conflict resolutions methods fall short. They will only resolve an issue insofar as the incorrect person is capable of and epistemically inclined towards making the same epistemic movements that the correct person has, if they lack the same capacity either qualitatively or quantitatively then they will not resolve the issue. This is true for all epistemic faculties.

When the aiding faith is understood as this strengthening and/or guiding type, faith proper is also often associated with authority as I hinted at before, where the trust is put in propositions based on ones trust the person telling you something. This is largely the meaning within the context of Hebrews 11:1. One's trust in God functions as evidence for one's belief that He will fulfill a promise. Again Hebrews 11:1 is not a definition but a relation of accidental qualities of in faith in God. And insofar as the trust in God is warranted the conclusions which follow from it are warranted.

The second way in which faith in this poor sense can function is by means of something like inspiration. It seems to me that this would have to function as a deep seated intuition that something is the case even though one could be aware that on the basis of natural epistemic activity it would not be justified. Think of it like asking someone how they know they should do x or y and they reply "I just know." When there is some sort of natural epistemic activity associated with this it typically revolves around the interpretation of signs. The a good analogy for our purposes is the faculty of sight. The purpose of the faculty of sight is to give epistemic content to the person seeing not to share it with someone else. If a seeing man and a blind man stand before a smooth two dimensional picture the seeing man can tell the blind man what it is a picture of. The blind man can choose to believe him or not. The seeing man can attempt to convince the blind man by a faculty other than sight that the blind man should believe him, but he can never transfer that sight to him. Nor does the the blind man's incapacity to see in any way diminish the seeing man's capacity. The blind man may even deny the capacity of of sight exists and may find the claim by the seeing man that the blind man is unaware of something because he cannot see unconvincing, but this doesn't change the legitimacy of the seeing man's claim nor make the seeing man unable to see. Likewise if two people capable of sight stand in the same place and one (A) sees something and another (B) does not, A might conclude from this alone that B has gone mad, that B's sight is not very good (he is mistaken about what is there), B is lying to him, or B is self-delusional. However, many people who claim this capacity also claim that it is of it's very nature an infallible faculty and one which is capable of self reference. Within the context of natural reason they claim this because it is the direct activity of God and God cannot lie to them (You may see here Chris B that I was not suggesting that God gets us out of the traps but that He makes them harder to get out of). Ignatius of Loyola seems to be of this opinion. If this is the case it is not a cop-out for A to assume the first two of the four options are no longer options. The only rational choice becomes that the person is lying to others or two himself. Your objections to the claims of person A are essentially the same. You claim that he is deluding himself essentialyl because he wants to have the faculty or because he wants the things he learns by it to be true. But person A's conclusions are not about convincing you they are about maintaining consistency within himself. Your primary objections seem to focus around the fact that the person is not giving what he sees as a lesser epistemic faculty pride of place within his epistemic framework, but why should he. Moreover because the truth of his own claims are so clear to him how could he concluded subjectively anything else other than by acknowledging the weakness of his own epistemic faculties and going to someone else with better faculties to be trained by him, in short by another form of faith. I should add self delusion and lying are regular activities within the human sphere. It may not be convincing to the person being accused to claim this about him but it is entirely legitimate internal conclusion. Especially within the context of self delusion, people do regularly engage in this (often without recognizing or at least acknowledging that it is happening), and the Christian message of sin influencing us makes this conclusion entirely consistent with the system as a whole.

This will have to be part I. I hope to answer more directly the questions of How does one know one has it, especially in the case of myself. I suppose how one resolves conflict has been largely answered but I may want to add somewhat to that. At the moment I need to get to work.

For the purposes of complying with forum rules regarding quotation:
http://www.thomasnelson.com/the-new-strong-s-expanded-dictionary-of-bible-words
http://solo.bodleian.ox.ac.uk/primo_library/libweb/action/display.do?tabs=detailsTab&ct=display&fn=search&doc=oxfaleph013721374&indx=1&recIds=oxfaleph013721374&recIdxs=0&elementId=0&renderMode=poppedOut&displayMode=full&frbrVersion=&dscnt=0&scp.scps=scope:(OX)&frbg=&tab=local&dstmp=1434028329682&srt=rank&mode=Basic&&dum=true&vl(304942529UI1)=all_items&tb=t&vl(1UIStartWith0)=contains&vl(353692469UI0)=any&vl(freeText0)=International Standard Bible Encyclopedia&vid=OXVU1
 
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Archaeopteryx

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Sorry that this is late.

Since there is no good place within the flow of the reply for the following I'd like to start by stepping back for a second and briefly outline how human epistemology functions before proceeding. The following is largely the opinion championed and made prevalent in the modern era by Blessed Henry Cardinal Newman, but I do not believe that I lifted it initially from him directly. The human person comes to conclusions by considering probabilities between to logically opposing propositions (X and ~X). These conclusions come in the form of institutions as to the level of probability. Newman calls this the illative sense. Even within the context of formal logic, these intuitions are the source of our basic propositions, our acceptance of the legitimacy of a basing relation, and that a basing relation is functioning. Absolute epistemic certainty accrues only when the epistemic probability of X is actually 100% and ~X 0%. Justification accrues when based upon the circumstances both epistemic and otherwise it is morally legitimate for a subject to ascent to a proposition.

What is faith?

First I want to say that, except insofar as "faith" can some times mean the content of a religion or the religion itself, which is clearly not what we are here discussing, in a religious context "faith" always entails some sort of trust. The definition you give of faith only became prominent in the 17th or 18th centuries and was largely defunct by the end of the 19th century. It was also principally a definition used by opponents of religion. I return to my previous statement that perhaps you are not or have not been sufficiently ensconced in religion to really understand how the term functions. This is largely an assumption I admit. I do not know your history. To prove my point, I simply Googled "what is faith". Here are quotations from every listing on the first page with the exception of Wikipedia, who in my opinion has significant legal failures in its licensing schema:

"It was by faith that Abraham was made able to become a father, because he trusted God to do what he had promised." https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews+11&version=NCV

"faith in the testimony and authority of others whom we can trust . . . faith with respect to a thousand things which we take on trust" http://biblehub.com/hebrews/11-1.htm

"This definition of faith contains two aspects: intellectual assent and trust." http://www.gotquestions.org/definition-of-faith.html

"Perhaps the best word we can use to translate the Greek word “pistis” (usually translated faith) is the word “trust” or “trustworthy.” Suppose you tell a friend that you have faith in her. What does that mean? It means two things. First, you are sure the person you are talking to actually exists. And second, you are convinced she is trustworthy; you can believe what she says and trust in her character." http://rzim.org/a-slice-of-infinity/what-is-faith-2

"Faith is belief with strong conviction; firm belief in something for which there may be no tangible proof; complete trust in or devotion to." http://christianity.about.com/od/glossary/g/faith.htm

"We began with Hebrews 11:6 stating, “Without faith it is impossible to please God.” God wants you to learn to rely on Him—to trust Him completely in everything! You really do not have a choice if you want to please Him. Like any human father, God does not want you to fret, worry and agonize over your needs. In numerous places throughout His Word, He promises to provide for you in all circumstances. He will always take care of you. Do not doubt! Believe God! Trust Him! Wait on Him! Expect Him to keep all of His promises—and He will! Faith is your evidence!" http://rcg.org/books/wirf.html

"Faith in God is more than a theoretical belief in Him. To have faith in God is to trust Him, to have confidence in Him, and to be willing to act on your belief in Him." http://www.mormon.org/faq/what-is-faith

"The New Strong’s Expanded Dictionary of Bible Word says, 'Pistis is used of belief with the predominate idea of trust (or confidence) whether in God or in Christ, springing from faith in the same. "Faith" means trust, confidence, assurance, and belief'" http://lifehopeandtruth.com/change/faith/what-is-faith/

"'The main sense of the word 'faith' in the NT is that of trust or reliance... [Pistis] bears the sense not of faithfulness alone, but of the reliance and trust that is the basis of man's faithfulness, i.e., the faithfulness that expresses confidence in the faithfulness of God' (International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, Vol. 2, 1982, article, 'Faith')."http://www.freebiblestudyguides.org/bible-map/what-is-faith.htm

Enough with the shock and awe lets get to the numbers (and I know this is an insufficient data set but it's the amount of effort I'm willing to put into it). Having given these a cursory reading, 9/9 say that faith involves trust of some kind. 8/9 say/imply that it is principally trust and the ninth may imply that it can be simply trust. 6/9 say/imply that the primary object of this trust is not a proposition but a person, namely God. 5 of those 6 say/imply that propositional faith functions as a result of this personal faith, and the sixth says that at least in relation to the proposition "God is" its functions in principally important for the purpose of personal faith. only 4/9 couch it in terms of epistemic weakness and only 1/9 possibly implies that it lacks warrant. In short religious faith, as I have been saying, is not principally belief in a proposition and most importantly is not principally a belief in an unwarranted proposition.

Faith is principally trust. As such it is chiefly not an intellectual act though it will involve the intellect, but chiefly an act of the will. Trust can be put in persons, objects, or the truth of propositions. Christian faith at least is principally a trust in God as a person. The belief in any given proposition is largely a result of and/or in the service of this faith in the person. Insofar as it does pertain to the truth of a proposition faith is identical to belief. In this regard it is necessary for the holding of propositions. As you pointed out, yes we all have faith (at least though of us who haven't completely spiraled into a pit of sceptical despair). Insofar as assent is an act of the will faith is often reserved for that assent which are less certain as they require a greater act of the will and thus "more" faith. However not being certain and not being warranted are not the same thing. Still absolute certainty require faith just by a lesser act of the will. Still even if that were not the case, excluding a supernatural infallible faculty, which we will get to later, humans lack the capacity to know anything with absolute certainty, at least in this life, and thus must always act on faith. Your faith is not religious faith because it does not pertain to religious objects. The fact that Western Christians often imply that a supernatural aid is necessary to gain Christian faith is accidental to the faith itself. It is as though I were not capable of climbing stair and need to be carried by someone to get to the second floor. Being on the second floor is in no way defined by my needing to carried up the stairs. Still some times the word "faith" is used secondarily to refer to the means or aid by which we attain faith proper.

It is the use of faith in this manner which I was alluding to in number 4. Personally I'm opposed to using the word faith in manner (especially of the first kind), but I acknowledge it is often done and if The Cadet is to understand what these people are saying then he would need to understand it in this manner. Part of my initial response was to suggest that The Cadet may not be understanding those who suggest faith leads to knowledge because he does not understand what they mean by "faith" and how they understand it to lead to knowledge.

As I alluded to there are two basic ways that faith in this poor sense can be seen to function. The first is by a strengthening and guiding our our own natural capacities. This is typically seen with regard to strengthening at least as ultimately correcting the ills caused to our natural epistemic faculties caused by the Fall. Imagine two people are on some sort of survivalist television show and are expected to race through the wilderness from point A to point B, but one has been taking performance enhancing drugs and has the filmcrew constantly manipulating the situation in his favor. What the two will be doing is essentially the same, and the manner of judging between them will be essentially the same, but one will be at a distinct advantage. Likewise one person (A) whose faculties have been helped can argue with one (B) whose have not, because A is just doing normal reasoning, but unless B is capable of keeping up A will not be convincing to B. If their intuitive faculties are functioning differently then there remains no middle ground. B intuits one set of probabilities from the situation and A another. This is why your proposed conflict resolutions methods fall short. They will only resolve an issue insofar as the incorrect person is capable of and epistemically inclined towards making the same epistemic movements that the correct person has, if they lack the same capacity either qualitatively or quantitatively then they will not resolve the issue. This is true for all epistemic faculties.

When the aiding faith is understood as this strengthening and/or guiding type, faith proper is also often associated with authority as I hinted at before, where the trust is put in propositions based on ones trust the person telling you something. This is largely the meaning within the context of Hebrews 11:1. One's trust in God functions as evidence for one's belief that He will fulfill a promise. Again Hebrews 11:1 is not a definition but a relation of accidental qualities of in faith in God. And insofar as the trust in God is warranted the conclusions which follow from it are warranted.

The second way in which faith in this poor sense can function is by means of something like inspiration. It seems to me that this would have to function as a deep seated intuition that something is the case even though one could be aware that on the basis of natural epistemic activity it would not be justified. Think of it like asking someone how they know they should do x or y and they reply "I just know." When there is some sort of natural epistemic activity associated with this it typically revolves around the interpretation of signs. The a good analogy for our purposes is the faculty of sight. The purpose of the faculty of sight is to give epistemic content to the person seeing not to share it with someone else. If a seeing man and a blind man stand before a smooth two dimensional picture the seeing man can tell the blind man what it is a picture of. The blind man can choose to believe him or not. The seeing man can attempt to convince the blind man by a faculty other than sight that the blind man should believe him, but he can never transfer that sight to him. Nor does the the blind man's incapacity to see in any way diminish the seeing man's capacity. The blind man may even deny the capacity of of sight exists and may find the claim by the seeing man that the blind man is unaware of something because he cannot see unconvincing, but this doesn't change the legitimacy of the seeing man's claim nor make the seeing man unable to see. Likewise if two people capable of sight stand in the same place and one (A) sees something and another (B) does not, A might conclude from this alone that B has gone mad, that B's sight is not very good (he is mistaken about what is there), B is lying to him, or B is self-delusional. However, many people who claim this capacity also claim that it is of it's very nature an infallible faculty and one which is capable of self reference. Within the context of natural reason they claim this because it is the direct activity of God and God cannot lie to them (You may see here Chris B that I was not suggesting that God gets us out of the traps but that He makes them harder to get out of). Ignatius of Loyola seems to be of this opinion. If this is the case it is not a cop-out for A to assume the first two of the four options are no longer options. The only rational choice becomes that the person is lying to others or two himself. Your objections to the claims of person A are essentially the same. You claim that he is deluding himself essentialyl because he wants to have the faculty or because he wants the things he learns by it to be true. But person A's conclusions are not about convincing you they are about maintaining consistency within himself. Your primary objections seem to focus around the fact that the person is not giving what he sees as a lesser epistemic faculty pride of place within his epistemic framework, but why should he. Moreover because the truth of his own claims are so clear to him how could he concluded subjectively anything else other than by acknowledging the weakness of his own epistemic faculties and going to someone else with better faculties to be trained by him, in short by another form of faith. I should add self delusion and lying are regular activities within the human sphere. It may not be convincing to the person being accused to claim this about him but it is entirely legitimate internal conclusion. Especially within the context of self delusion, people do regularly engage in this (often without recognizing or at least acknowledging that it is happening), and the Christian message of sin influencing us makes this conclusion entirely consistent with the system as a whole.

This will have to be part I. I hope to answer more directly the questions of How does one know one has it, especially in the case of myself. I suppose how one resolves conflict has been largely answered but I may want to add somewhat to that. At the moment I need to get to work.

For the purposes of complying with forum rules regarding quotation:
http://www.thomasnelson.com/the-new-strong-s-expanded-dictionary-of-bible-words
http://solo.bodleian.ox.ac.uk/primo_library/libweb/action/display.do?tabs=detailsTab&ct=display&fn=search&doc=oxfaleph013721374&indx=1&recIds=oxfaleph013721374&recIdxs=0&elementId=0&renderMode=poppedOut&displayMode=full&frbrVersion=&dscnt=0&scp.scps=scope:(OX)&frbg=&tab=local&dstmp=1434028329682&srt=rank&mode=Basic&&dum=true&vl(304942529UI1)=all_items&tb=t&vl(1UIStartWith0)=contains&vl(353692469UI0)=any&vl(freeText0)=International Standard Bible Encyclopedia&vid=OXVU1
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riona

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I think it's... I want to say funny, but I don't mean it in a rude way, so I'll just say interesting... that I've noticed a trend on this site that when people can't (or don't want to? I don't know for sure) answer the OP question they start nitpicking at the words used instead.

Some have posited faith as an epistemology here; that you can know something through faith in it.

For those making that claim, I have a simple question.

If you hold on faith that a particular god exists, and I hold on faith that your particular god does not exist, how do we determine which one of us is right? We cannot both be right; one of us must be wrong. But how, using faith, can we determine which of the two of us is in the wrong?

I did have to google "epistemology" and this what the #2 definition that makes sense to me.. Epistemology is the investigation of what distinguishes justified belief from opinion.

I'm guessing, Cadet, that you're saying something like 'my belief in my god makes me right and you wrong because your god is different than mine and I don't believe in it'... so you're wanting to know why my belief is justified and not an opinion?

If that is the case, my answer would be- it's not.
Unfortunately I don't believe I've ever heard of anything in the bible that can be proven beyond the shadow of a doubt. It's all about having faith in what can't be proven I think... I guess I always thought that's what faith was.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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What is faith?

First I want to say that, except insofar as "faith" can some times mean the content of a religion or the religion itself, which is clearly not what we are here discussing, in a religious context "faith" always entails some sort of trust. The definition you give of faith only became prominent in the 17th or 18th centuries and was largely defunct by the end of the 19th century. It was also principally a definition used by opponents of religion. I return to my previous statement that perhaps you are not or have not been sufficiently ensconced in religion to really understand how the term functions. This is largely an assumption I admit. I do not know your history.
This is an unjustified assumption. I was a Christian for most of my life.

To prove my point, I simply Googled "what is faith". Here are quotations from every listing on the first page with the exception of Wikipedia, who in my opinion has significant legal failures in its licensing schema:
The problem with this approach is that you are going to get several definitions, many of them not relevant to the discussion at hand.

"Faith is belief with strong conviction; firm belief in something for which there may be no tangible proof; complete trust in or devotion to." http://christianity.about.com/od/glossary/g/faith.htm
Of all the definitions, this is probably the one closest to 'faith' as we are discussing it.

"We began with Hebrews 11:6 stating, “Without faith it is impossible to please God.” God wants you to learn to rely on Him—to trust Him completely in everything! You really do not have a choice if you want to please Him. Like any human father, God does not want you to fret, worry and agonize over your needs. In numerous places throughout His Word, He promises to provide for you in all circumstances. He will always take care of you. Do not doubt! Believe God! Trust Him! Wait on Him! Expect Him to keep all of His promises—and He will! Faith is your evidence!" http://rcg.org/books/wirf.html

"Faith in God is more than a theoretical belief in Him. To have faith in God is to trust Him, to have confidence in Him, and to be willing to act on your belief in Him." http://www.mormon.org/faq/what-is-faith
This is rather silly. One must first believe that a God exists before "trusting" him, no?

"The New Strong’s Expanded Dictionary of Bible Word says, 'Pistis is used of belief with the predominate idea of trust (or confidence) whether in God or in Christ, springing from faith in the same. "Faith" means trust, confidence, assurance, and belief'" http://lifehopeandtruth.com/change/faith/what-is-faith/
This is probably the worst definition; it conflates faith with belief, even though not all beliefs are held "on faith."

Enough with the shock and awe lets get to the numbers (and I know this is an insufficient data set but it's the amount of effort I'm willing to put into it). Having given these a cursory reading, 9/9 say that faith involves trust of some kind. 8/9 say/imply that it is principally trust and the ninth may imply that it can be simply trust. 6/9 say/imply that the primary object of this trust is not a proposition but a person, namely God. 5 of those 6 say/imply that propositional faith functions as a result of this personal faith, and the sixth says that at least in relation to the proposition "God is" its functions in principally important for the purpose of personal faith. only 4/9 couch it in terms of epistemic weakness and only 1/9 possibly implies that it lacks warrant. In short religious faith, as I have been saying, is not principally belief in a proposition and most importantly is not principally a belief in an unwarranted proposition.
I'm not sure why we should put any stock in this at all. You searched through a few dictionary definitions and found, unsurprisingly, that the word 'faith' has multiple senses. Well, yeah, we already knew that. But we're interested in one specific usage, not all possible usages.

Faith is principally trust. As such it is chiefly not an intellectual act though it will involve the intellect, but chiefly an act of the will. Trust can be put in persons, objects, or the truth of propositions. Christian faith at least is principally a trust in God as a person.
One must first believe that the person one purports to trust actually exists.

The belief in any given proposition is largely a result of and/or in the service of this faith in the person. Insofar as it does pertain to the truth of a proposition faith is identical to belief. In this regard it is necessary for the holding of propositions. As you pointed out, yes we all have faith (at least though of us who haven't completely spiraled into a pit of sceptical despair).
If you want to use faith as a synonym for 'confidence', then yes, we all have 'faith'. But the level of confidence we have in a proposition may or may not be warranted.

Insofar as assent is an act of the will faith is often reserved for that assent which are less certain as they require a greater act of the will and thus "more" faith. However not being certain and not being warranted are not the same thing. Still absolute certainty require faith just by a lesser act of the will. Still even if that were not the case, excluding a supernatural infallible faculty, which we will get to later, humans lack the capacity to know anything with absolute certainty, at least in this life, and thus must always act on faith.
Why would one need to have absolute certainty in order to not act on faith? What about having a good reason? Given that even the best evidence doesn't guarantee a certain outcome, this view equates a decision made in light of good evidence as being as much an act of "faith" as a decision made on the basis of no evidence. Both a surgeon and a homeopath are exercising "faith," on this view, even if one bases her decisions on evidence and the other acts despite the evidence.

As I alluded to there are two basic ways that faith in this poor sense can be seen to function. The first is by a strengthening and guiding our our own natural capacities. This is typically seen with regard to strengthening at least as ultimately correcting the ills caused to our natural epistemic faculties caused by the Fall. Imagine two people are on some sort of survivalist television show and are expected to race through the wilderness from point A to point B, but one has been taking performance enhancing drugs and has the filmcrew constantly manipulating the situation in his favor. What the two will be doing is essentially the same, and the manner of judging between them will be essentially the same, but one will be at a distinct advantage. Likewise one person (A) whose faculties have been helped can argue with one (B) whose have not, because A is just doing normal reasoning, but unless B is capable of keeping up A will not be convincing to B. If their intuitive faculties are functioning differently then there remains no middle ground. B intuits one set of probabilities from the situation and A another. This is why your proposed conflict resolutions methods fall short. They will only resolve an issue insofar as the incorrect person is capable of and epistemically inclined towards making the same epistemic movements that the correct person has, if they lack the same capacity either qualitatively or quantitatively then they will not resolve the issue. This is true for all epistemic faculties.
I'm sorry, but to me this seems like a convoluted way of saying, "Well, if they thought like me, they'd agree with me!" It doesn't quite address the spirit of my question.

When the aiding faith is understood as this strengthening and/or guiding type, faith proper is also often associated with authority as I hinted at before, where the trust is put in propositions based on ones trust the person telling you something. This is largely the meaning within the context of Hebrews 11:1. One's trust in God functions as evidence for one's belief that He will fulfill a promise. Again Hebrews 11:1 is not a definition but a relation of accidental qualities of in faith in God. And insofar as the trust in God is warranted the conclusions which follow from it are warranted.
On what basis is it warranted?

Likewise if two people capable of sight stand in the same place and one (A) sees something and another (B) does not, A might conclude from this alone that B has gone mad, that B's sight is not very good (he is mistaken about what is there), B is lying to him, or B is self-delusional.
Why does A presume that the fault must lie with B? In this hypothetical, A presumes himself to be infallible. Is A infallible?

Your primary objections seem to focus around the fact that the person is not giving what he sees as a lesser epistemic faculty pride of place within his epistemic framework, but why should he.
No, my question centres around why he has privileged this one particular "faculty."
 
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variant

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Your premise is in error thus your conclusion. We are definitely not "told to accept hearsay as an authoritative dictate..." unless you are speaking of the Bible itself. Based on your jab that doesn't seem to be your tact. Yes the hearsay is the initial pointer, but is in no way "authoritative". I take it this is your visceral reaction in unbelief. That's understandable.

Well actually, yes most of the Bible is most definitely and indeed hearsay, you were presenting the hearsay of the hearsay as an authentic method for getting to truth.

There is an ethereal part. It is the "hearing God's voice" in what we get from scripture. And no, I'm not speaking of a literal voice. This is topic I've learned is fruitless to debate or attempt to convey or convince. It's between you and God after you've examined the scripture.

God is remarkably silent in my experience. I apparently don't have the skill set to dull my skepticism with talk of "hearing God" when reading things like the Bible the Koran, the Bagavagita or the Book of Mormon.

People end up having the kind of religious trust in these books and not others, based upon some factors that I can only begin to poke an explanation at.

They do get rather haughty about it though, case in point, you. I have plenty of experiences where believers will tell me what God thinks based upon some writing or another.

It's understandable that you would defend your inherently weak position by attacking me personally though, It's the usual basic defensive reaction to the fear you feel in the weakness of your position.

Contrary to many I don't find a requirement in scripture to "defend the gospel" or convince only to provide some clarification where there is openness.

I didn't ask you to, my tact here is that faith isn't valid as a justifiable truth determination method.
 
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outsidethecamp

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I didn't ask you to, my tact here is that faith isn't valid as a justifiable truth determination method.

Nevertheless, from a Christian standpoint, faith is extremely valid and justifiable for many in receiving Christ and knowing the truth.

Whatever your conclusions end up being, faith in Jesus Christ is never confirmed by the "wisdom of men".
1Co_2:5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

You will most likely find that you are "beating at windmills", because you are trying to provide explanation for something that exists in another dimension from the one you are currently living in. Very, very close to you is another dimension, (the word is nigh thee, Rom 10:8) which is a spiritual dimension but more real than your world, because the things in your world are passing away, and the things in this other world are eternal. The best one can do who has no experience, is theorize. Totally understandable.

"Faith IS the evidence of things not seen". Heb 11:1.
 
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variant

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Nevertheless, from a Christian standpoint, faith is extremely valid and justifiable for many in receiving Christ and knowing the truth.

Truth is truth, there aren't "christian" facts that are justified differently than other facts.

You will most likely find that you are "beating at windmills", because you are trying to provide explanation for something that exists in another dimension from the one you are currently living in. Very, very close to you is another dimension, (the word is nigh thee, Rom 10:8) which is a spiritual dimension but more real than your world, because the things in your world are passing away, and the things in this other world are eternal. The best one can do who has no experience, is theorize. Totally understandable.

Unsupported assertions.

"Faith IS the evidence of things not seen". Heb 11:1.

No, faith is not evidence. It is an attitude that people take when they don't have enough evidence to support their beliefs.
 
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Chris B

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If one believes in the authenticity of the facts accounted in the Biblical passage in question (factualness) then one is not depending on a spiritual bogey man but ones own acceptance of the sensibleness within that context.
Agreed.
Then the question as to whether in acceptance or rejection of message (here, the biblical one) there is a divine hand or power at work...

Romans 10:17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

But there is a tinge of spiritual mystery here that is difficult to comprehend so we usually hear something like "but you're getting mystical there. God hasn't spoken to me."

I was more dismissive of mysticism when I was younger. I still have my scepticism but not from a priori rejection of mysticism as a mode to true knowledge. It's more complicated.

[/QUOTE]
Paul answers that in the next passage "But I say, Have they not heard? Yes truly, their sound went into all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world."
Nothing ethereal there just one person after another passing on the good news.[/QUOTE]

"Paul answers" is phrased from within the faith, I think.
"Is Paul right to say that?" would be something almost exclusively said from outside that position.

Is "This is true" an answer given to faith, or the answer faith itself generates?
I find the two difficult if not impossible to separate.

Has God spoken to me? that wanders away from the topic. It would appear He has not spoken effectively to me, which is peculiar, and leads to a branching set of possibilities (off topic!)
 
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Chris B

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Well, most people stake their life and death on what or who they believe. I have staked mine on the fact that Jesus Christ rose from the dead and I have believed His words, and received "the earnest of His spirit". A transaction has taken place in me that I am pretty sure about. Am I mistaken? If I am, then my faith is in vain, just as Paul penned below. But, if I am not mistaken...

Understood.
With a clear understanding of the issues, and on as much evidence as I could gather, weighed as carefully as I know how, I have come to the opposite conclusion. Yes, and I'm betting my life and hypothetical afterlife on it.
I can't really do anything else and live with myself.

But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. 1Co 15:12-14

Very much so, and then follows a verse that some Christians seem not to know when they maintain that in believing they have "nothing to lose":

19 If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men most to be pitied.

Not nothing to lose at all, as Paul weighs it. Almost the reverse.

But follows on immediate Paul's confident declaration, as you quote:

"But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 1Co 15:20"

This is then settled, from within faith.
From the outside I'm still left with "but is he right to say that?"

Chris
 
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Chris B

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...But in faith, BOTH COULD BE RIGHT. Of course, if you do not have faith, this would be impossible to you. Because you treat faith as law or science. You have to understand this from the position of one who has faith.

And, if you understand what the function of faith really is, then this result is perfectly logic.

"But in faith, BOTH COULD BE RIGHT"
but in faith could both still be wrong?

I can't treat faith as law or science because both of those admit the possibility of error.
(though this principle is, as might be expected, not practised to perfection.)
There may be exceptions but "faith encompassing the possibility of error" seems rare.

This is principally what worries me about faith (and varied faiths).
When it delivers an inability to think "Yes,of course I don't think I am, but I just could be wrong."
When in that hard form I maintain that it is a conviction which has the potential to drive out a person's humanity. In the name of pure and absolute truth.
 
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