How does one come to believe something?

[Arsenios]

Wouldn't it be better to say, doesn't mean they are there? By your way of thinking, anything exists that can't be proven otherwise. Why not accept the null hypothesis?

Because it is not an hypothesis...

I might just as well close my eyes and tell you there is nothing to see...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Take three guesses...

Is this the Mutt and Jeff Show??

Arsenios

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

...

All of which boils down to, 'it makes no sense at all, but it's true!'

I'd hoped for a philosophical argument, but never mind.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Is this the Mutt and Jeff Show??

It looks that way.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Thanks - I'll pass...

Inevitably. Just keep the faith.

 

[Arsenios]

Inevitably. Just keep the faith.

I cannot keep what I do not have...

I don't follow a lot of side trails...

I am a tracker...

I try not to be a side-tracker...

But you can keep trying...

I mean, inevitably might be a tad strong...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

It looks that way.

It does -

Big dog bites...

Little mutt yaps...

Arsenios

 

[ScottA]

All of which boils down to, 'it makes no sense at all, but it's true!'

I'd hoped for a philosophical argument, but never mind.

Perhaps the only way it would make sense to you, is if you pretend you are a timeless god and then imagine your own tale - then ask yourself, "If you are timeless, and the tale has a timeline, how is that possible?"

My guess is, your answer would be, "I am timeless, but my tale has a timeline - what's the problem?"

 

[ToddNotTodd]

Christianity understands ALL gods other than the Christian God as demons...

And Hinduism might understand that the Christian god is actually a Hindu demon and not a god. That's not the point.

The point that you still don't seem to be getting is that what you used as evidence of your god existing (life changing experiences) can be equally used for any god existing. Vishnu, Ammon, Zeus, etc. Unless you're suggesting that the argument only applies to Christianity. If that's the case you have to show how it can't apply to any other deity. Which I don't see as being possible.

Demonic encounters can also be life-changing...

So can anything not supernaturally related. Which makes your original argument invalid to begin with as, like I've already said, you'd have to show how mundane experiences can't be life changing. And since evidence of the contrary exists, you can't do such a thing.

Now, with that out of the way, do you have any actual evidence that any god exists or not?

 

[Ana the Ist]

Perhaps the only way it would make sense to you, is if you pretend you are a timeless god and then imagine your own tale - then ask yourself, "If you are timeless, and the tale has a timeline, how is that possible?"

My guess is, your answer would be, "I am timeless, but my tale has a timeline - what's the problem?"

There's no real problem if you understand that "timeless" is a nonsensical word in the context you're using it.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

No need - IF one is open minded, it can be easily empirically ascertained...

As has recently been done in the medical field...

I did it myself - Secretly prayed for some, and not for others, when I first became a Christian - I didn't believe this pray for me garbage - And then simply payed attention to how their lives progressed... I was shocked at the results...

And it is something you can do in the privacy of your very own mind!

Arsenios

They've already done a study about prayer. It didn't turn out well for theists:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/31/health/31pray.html

Now, I'm sure the theists will all claim that there's something wrong with the study. But all of the ex Christians here have probably tested prayer. I know I have.

It doesn't work.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

No, you just called potential facts not facts at all...simply because YOU yourself did not have the proof. And now after defining truth as only limited to your own knowledge...you accuse me of doing the same, simply because you aren't in the know.

There's no such thing as a "potential fact". If something is a fact, it's a fact. If something hasn't been shown to be a fact, it's not a fact.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Hey Hitchslap, my definition proposes that since it's a fact that you've made that claim, your claim is evidence. It does not propose that since it's a fact that you made that claim, your claim is true. There is a big difference

To make it more clear, consider the difference between following claims:

Claim 1) "His claim is true, since it's a fact that he made a claim"

Claim 2) "His claim is evidence, since it's a fact that he made a claim"

Can you see and understand the difference? I'm claiming #2, not #1.

Hope that helps

Evidence of what? That he made a claim?

No one here is doubting that you make a bunch of unevidenced claims.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

I'd hoped for a philosophical argument, but never mind.

"Look, if I argue with you, I must take up a contrary position."
"Yes, but that's not just saying 'No it isn't.'"
"Yes it is!"

I'm coming more and more to the conclusion that trying to argue with most of the Christians here is exactly like experiencing Monty Python's Argument Clinic sketch in real life.

 

[ScottA]

There's no real problem if you understand that "timeless" is a nonsensical word in the context you're using it.

timeless

[tahym-lis]

• Synonyms
• Examples
• Word Origin

See more synonyms on Thesaurus.com
adjective
1.
without beginning or end; eternal; everlasting.

 

[ScottA]

There's no such thing as a "potential fact". If something is a fact, it's a fact. If something hasn't been shown to be a fact, it's not a fact.

You are right, I was too kind - his position, is simply ridiculous. Potential facts indeed!

 

[Ana the Ist]

timeless

[tahym-lis]

• Synonyms
• Examples
• Word Origin

See more synonyms on Thesaurus.com
adjective
1.
without beginning or end; eternal; everlasting.

That's not the context you're using...because nothing about that definition suggests a being that doesn't experience time in the exact same way as you and I.

Do you want to try again? Or just give up now?

 

[Arsenios]

Now, with that out of the way, do you have any actual evidence that any god exists or not?

Yes - ALL life-changing encounters not carnally attributable...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

All of the ex Christians here have probably tested prayer.
I know I have. It doesn't work.

Ex-married people say the same about marriage...
And none of them study successful marriages...
What IS a Girl to DO??

Arsenios

 

[Ana the Ist]

Yes - ALL life-changing encounters not carnally attributable...

Arsenios

I think you meant "no".