How does one come to believe something?

[bhsmte]

You use the word right in a broad sense, I am using it to describe only what I said. That I believe you do not want to be a Christian and that God has left you to your own devises.
You claim that you do not believe in scripture or the bible as fact and that you would like me to demonstrate why I believe they are real.
Your own words make my statement correct, in what you yourself have said. Is it a universal truth? Could be because so far all secularist who have come into this thread to talk to me have told me what you have said.
Am I trying to prove that the statement is truth in and of itself? not exactly, just that it is possible for someone like yourself to agree with it if you see it from another perspective, and you have.

Makes no sense.

Clearly, I had no problem being a Christian for 40 years, so it wasn't some hate for Christianity that caused my change. It was a simple accumulation of knowledge I did not have before, that led me to believe that I was wrong about the belief.

You see, people can change their beliefs as they acquire knowledge and I see this as a sign of strength to acknowledge new information, vs simply denying anything that may go against a belief. So, I couldn't fool myself into believing the theology any longer and needed to be honest with myself, quite simple really.

But, you can go on convincing yourself that my motivation is simply "not wanting to be a Christian" vs just realizing, my belief was wrong and I don't do well, with holding onto beliefs I believe are wrong.

 

[bhsmte]

I keep saying, O.K. like it helps and it honestly doesnt.

He is pointing out why atheist excel at somethings Christians dont, which in turn is pointing out the better one or superior.
Better being the best choice of words.

Would you say a physician is superior at diagnosing medical issues vs someone who does not have the same education? Would you say a Phd biologists is superior at understanding evolution and the evidence, vs someone not educated in the same fashion?

Some people are superior to others in some categories of knowledge and expertise and that is reality.

 

[Mattao]

O.K., let's take these one at a time.

Makes no sense.

Clearly, I had no problem being a Christian for 40 years, so it wasn't some hate for Christianity that caused my change. It was a simple accumulation of knowledge I did not have before, that led me to believe that I was wrong about the belief.

Again, you are putting words in my mouth
I Never said, you have some kind of hate for Christianity. Just that there is something that keeps you from being one.
More specifically, that there is a reason you dont want to be one and then I used a scripture that says the same thing to back up what I said. I never made any suggestions as to why you dont want to be one, all I said was that you dont.
The scripture is also just as vague, that there is a reason you dont want to be one and that God has left you to those reasons.

You see, people can change their beliefs as they acquire knowledge and I see this as a sign of strength to acknowledge new information, vs simply denying anything that may go against a belief. So, I couldn't fool myself into believing the theology any longer and needed to be honest with myself, quite simple really.

Well, there you have it! There are your reasons, I didnt put them there, I didnt suggest what they were, you did and by defualt you made me right because all I said was, that you didnt want to be a Christian and now you've told me why.

But, you can go on convincing yourself that my motivation is simply "not wanting to be a Christian" vs just realizing, my belief was wrong and I don't do well, with holding onto beliefs I believe are wrong.

Thats not for me to say, all I am saying is that you dont want to be a Christian and that what you're saying is making me correct.
If you are asking my personal reasons for being a Christian?
I would say, I have been filled with the Holy Spirit and no longer require proof because God has given it to me.
But that isnt an argument and has nothing to do with the OP or this thread, just that it answers your question. If in fact you asked one.

 

[Mattao]

Would you say a physician is superior at diagnosing medical issues vs someone who does not have the same education? Would you say a Phd biologists is superior at understanding evolution and the evidence, vs someone not educated in the same fashion?

Some people are superior to others in some categories of knowledge and expertise and that is reality.

I always thought that grammatically, if you were to say an atheist in the broad sense were better at some things then a Christian in the broad sense that using the word superior would be over kill.
Thanks for clearing that up.

 

[bhsmte]

O.K., let's take these one at a time.

Again, you are putting words in my mouth
I Never said, you have some kind of hate for Christianity. Just that there is something that keeps you from being one.
More specifically, that there is a reason you dont want to be one and then I used a scripture that says the same thing to back up what I said. I never made any suggestions as to why you dont want to be one, all I said was that you dont.
The scripture is also just as vague, that there is a reason you dont want to be one and that God has left you to those reasons.

Well, there you have it! There are your reasons, I didnt put them there, I didnt suggest what they were, you did and by defualt you made me right because all I said was, that you didnt want to be a Christian and now you've told me why.


Thats not for me to say, all I am saying is that you dont want to be a Christian and that what you're saying is making me correct.
If you are asking my personal reasons for being a Christian?
I would say, I have been filled with the Holy Spirit and no longer require proof because God has given it to me.
But that isnt an argument and has nothing to do with the OP or this thread, just that it answers your question. If in fact you asked one.

I can only speak for myself, but I want to live a life in which I believe in as manny correct things as possible and don't believe in as many incorrect things as possible.

How do I do this? By being open to acquiring new knowledge I did not possess before and being willing to admit when I was wrong and letting objective evidence be the guide.

I can't believe the theology, because I can't reconcile it with reality. If you can, knock yourself out.

 

[bhsmte]

I always thought that grammatically, if you were to say an atheist in the broad sense were better at some things then a Christian in the broad sense that using the word superior would be over kill.
Thanks for clearing that up.

Everyone is superior to someone else in regards to something. What that something is, depends on each person.

 

[Mattao]

I can only speak for myself, but I want to live a life in which I believe in as manny correct things as possible and don't believe in as many incorrect things as possible.

How do I do this? By being open to acquiring new knowledge I did not possess before and being willing to admit when I was wrong and letting objective evidence be the guide.

I can't believe the theology, because I can't reconcile it with reality. If you can, knock yourself out.

How about this question.
Would you say that you cant deny yourself and that you are only being true to who you are?
That it's all part of your personality?

 

[bhsmte]

How about this question.
Would you say that you cant deny yourself and that you are only being true to who you are?
That it's all part of your personality?

It is part of my psyche, to be honest with myself and to not engage in mind games with myself when it comes to beliefs.

Have you ever changed your mind on something big, when you acquired new knowledge you did not possess before?

 

[Mattao]

Have you ever changed your mind on something big, when you acquired new knowledge you did not possess before?

Of course.
And not to throw a monkey wrench in this line of thinking, because I've taken a deep look at myself, but I've also come to realize that there are 2 sides to every story. It isnt exactly truth all by itself that convinces people because if it were it would be easy to convince everyone of the same thing. Truth is what you make it, and I "believe" that you would say that as much to me as I would to you.

 

[bhsmte]

Of course.
And not to throw a monkey wrench in this line of thinking, because I've taken a deep look at myself, but I've also come to realize that there are 2 sides to every story. It isnt exactly truth all by itself that convinces people because if it were it would be easy to convince everyone of the same thing. Truth is what you make it, and I "believe" that you would say that as much to me as I would to you.

Depends how you are wired to think; analytical vs intuition and your individual psyche, how you go about evaluating information and how it impacts how beliefs are arrived at.

 

[jonesdon]

To lumberjohn/atheist (post #237) who says "I'm not waiting for anything. If God wants me to believe, he can present good evidence. In the meantime, I'll continue not believing. I'll use the exact same standards you use to assess all religions other than Christianity"

==== RESP: Of course, to believe (or not) is your choice. You didn't address my reasons -- i.e. God being the better choice. "Exact same standards"? Hmmm, pretty cocky (presumptuous) for someone who doesn't know this Newbie.

When you mention your "neutral" -- I see 1) being stuck in neutral, 2) a cop-out, being wishy washy, by agreeing w "everybody". 3) everything is nothing -- i.e. no foundation or standards.

BTW: Why all religons but Christianity? Judaism, Islam, and others are also montheistic. So, you have a vendetta against (only) Christianity?

P.S. I guess your other atheistic compatriots have no response to my post #226. Are my statements & questions too hard?

 

[bhsmte]

==== Where did I say the Christian God? I just said, by the logic, one God. This could be Christian, Jewish, Muslim, or other. Why not other gods? Because more than one ultimate is a contradiction. My "neutral" is logic.

So, you're waiting for (physical, scientific) evidence of God? Good luck! But I'm always optimistic -- maybe God'll knock you down like Paul, or completely out, before you believe? Or, are you just too stubborn for even this?

Compelling argument? Patience, patience, donkey, I've just started! ;-) Oh yes, I'll be talking reality also. To kick this off -- is a mental concept a reality? Does it really exist?

Can you show us your personal interpretation that a God exists is reliable?

Also, I understand some Christians like to resort to the old; if you don't believe in God, he may do something bad to you argument, but it just reeks of desperation.

 

[jonesdon]

Can you show us your personal interpretation that a God exists is reliable?

Also, I understand some Christians like to resort to the old; if you don't believe in God, he may do something bad to you argument, but it just reeks of desperation.

 

[jonesdon]

I said God is a choice, I think a better one. Then, I've asked lumberjohn (w/o response), but is a mental concept a reality? Does it really exist? You say?

Hmmm. What do you mean by "old"? If Christ's example & msgs, then, "yes". "If you don't believe in God" -- God is the judge. Yes, in the OT, God does something bad to you. in the NT, the loving fatherly God wants you to come home (as the prodigal son). Argument? Nope, the opposite of desperation -- called "hope".

 

[bhsmte]

I said God is a choice, I think a better one. Then, I've asked lumberjohn (w/o response), but is a mental concept a reality? Does it really exist? You say?

Hmmm. What do you mean by "old"? If Christ's example & msgs, then, "yes". "If you don't believe in God" -- God is the judge. Yes, in the OT, God does something bad to you. in the NT, the loving fatherly God wants you to come home (as the prodigal son). Argument? Nope, the opposite of desperation -- called "hope".

If someone came to you with another religious belief and told you; God would do something bad to you, because you don't believe in his religion, would you take him seriously?

 

[Davian]

==== Where did I say the Christian God? I just said, by the logic, one God. This could be Christian, Jewish, Muslim, or other. Why not other gods? Because more than one ultimate is a contradiction. My "neutral" is logic.

So, you're waiting for (physical, scientific) evidence of God? Good luck! But I'm always optimistic -- maybe God'll knock you down like Paul, or completely out, before you believe? Or, are you just too stubborn for even this?

Compelling argument? Patience, patience, donkey, I've just started! ;-) Oh yes, I'll be talking reality also. To kick this off -- is a mental concept a reality? Does it really exist?

This smelled of apologetics, which would get this thread closed quickly, but since you have asked again:

I am ignostic on the topic of gods. If you are claiming that a "god" was needed as a "starting point", you will need to define what you mean by "god" and show why such a thing was needed, and how you know this.

I am not asking for evidence for gods; I would ask that you define what you mean by the term in a testable, falsifiable manner.

As for your last question, it would follow that you define "mental concept" for the purposes of this discussion, so that we can compare it to how you have defined "god".

 

[Davian]

...
Of course, to believe (or not) is your choice.
...

In what way is belief a choice? Can you consciously decide to believe that Earth is being visited by extraterrestrial aliens, or that Bigfoot exists? And then, later in the week, decide otherwise?

 

[Wayne R.]

Let me know when you are done making excuses for why you can't.

"Let me know when you are done making excuses for why you can't." LOLOLOL

 

[jonesdon]

If someone came to you with another religious belief and told you; God would do something bad to you, because you don't believe in his religion, would you take him seriously?

=== REPLY: Sure, I would take them serious - that they believe this. But, I trust in my own faith & relationship w God -- and I wouldn't do this to another. My God is not vindictive -- like in the OT (or Qur'an) as the Jewish (& Islamic) religions.

OK. So, are you going to answer my questions? Including why God is not the better choice (of no God) as in post #187)?

 

[bhsmte]

=== REPLY: Sure, I would take them serious - that they believe this. But, I trust in my own faith & relationship w God -- and I wouldn't do this to another. My God is not vindictive -- like in the OT (or Qur'an) as the Jewish (& Islamic) religions.

OK. So, are you going to answer my questions? Including why God is not the better choice (of no God) as in post #187)?

I need a reason to believe in a God. I don't just believe because it is one alternative and we don't have the answer to everything, so we inject a God to explain what we don't know - yet.

And which God are you referring to? Do you have a description of this God you believe in, or do you just say; I believe in a God?