How does Mary protect us?

Ephfourfive

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There's still nothing in your enchilada that proves that Mary remained a virgin for the whole of her life. In fact, she was biologically a non-virgin simply by giving birth to Jesus, and yet your fond wish is that she still retained her virginity.

The way that the legend which gave rise to this doctrine got around that "problem" was to posit that she gave birth through her side! And that's the stuff of "Sacred Tradition" that some people put up against the authority of Scripture.

:rolleyes:

Virgin Birth
14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Miraculous conception
Miraculous birth

And both creeds testifies to the Virgin birth
 
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Albion

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Virgin Birth
14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Well then, you are still claiming that because she was a virgin when she conceived Jesus, she must therefore have remained a virgin for the rest of her life.

Nothing suggests that this is the case. Not Scripture, not even logic.
 
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prodromos

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No, it doesn't. It "implies" only that she didn't immediately understand how she could get pregnant, seeing that she, being only betrothed to Joseph, had not had sexual relations up to that point in time.
The archangel's announcement does not refer to that point in time but to some time in the future. He didn't say "you have conceived", he said "you will conceive".It is no different to when God told Abraham that his wife Sarah will bear him a son. Sarah didn't conceive for a couple of months because Isaac wasn't born until almost a year later. Thus, when Mary asks how it can be since she is not knowing a man, she is referring to the future just as the archangel did. Her question does not make sense if she fully expected to be having sexual intercourse with Joseph in the near future.
 
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Ephfourfive

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Hi and in 2 Tim 3:16 God breathed all scripture and nothing MORE unless I missed the MENO , or you have a verse ??

dan p

God breathed the church of Christ and the authority of Peter and the apostles too
John 20:21-23
 
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Ephfourfive

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Well then, you are still claiming that because she was a virgin when she conceived Jesus, she must therefore have remained a virgin for the rest of her life.

Nothing suggests that this is the case. Not Scripture, not even logic.

Anything consecrated to God cannot be used for a profane purpose

Ezekiel 44:2 “This gate shall remain shut; it shall not be opened, and no one shall enter by it; for the Lord, the God of Israel, has entered by it; therefore it shall remain shut.”

Song of Solomon 4:12 A garden inclosed is my sister, my spouse; a spring shut up, a fountain sealed.
 
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Ephfourfive

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"She was an ordinary human being like all the rest of us. She lived and died as a converted Christian filled with the Holy Spirit. She is one of multitudes in Paradise awaiting the second coming of Christ. She is not a god"

I agree with you in that, the rest is just wrong.

According to you, where did the "pagan" influence come from and why do you insult a Saint like Constantine?

Calling Mary ordinary is like calling the ark of the covenant just another box!

Lk 1:43 mother of God
Lk 2:30 mother of our salvation
Lk 1:30 found the favor or salvation lost by Adam
Lk 1:28 the Lord is with her
Lk 1:28 full of grace
Lk 1:49 immaculate conception
Isa 14:7 matt 1:21-23 perpetual virgin
 
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Albion

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The archangel's announcement does not refer to that point in time but to some time in the future. He didn't say "you have conceived", he said "you will conceive".
Very well, it refers to her having already found favor with God and having already been chosen to bear the Son of God.

The latter event would, as you say, be in the future. That would be the near future. But this is nothing like the claim I've been contending against by which the archangel's statement is supposed to refer to the rest of Mary's life!

Thus, when Mary asks how it can be since she is not knowing a man, she is referring to the future just as the archangel did. Her question does not make sense if she fully expected to be having sexual intercourse with Joseph in the near future.
I disagree.
 
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Albion

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Anything consecrated to God cannot be used for a profane purpose
You consider sex to be profane, then?

Profane, even though God chose his Son to be born of a human woman as all the rest of us are? It would have been entirely possible for Jesus to have been discovered like Moses was and then raised to adulthood by human parents, you know. But that wasn't the divine plan.
 
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Ephfourfive

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You consider sex to be profane, then?

Profane, even though God chose his Son to be born of a human woman as all the rest of us are? It would have been entirely possible for Jesus to have been discovered like Moses was and then raised to adulthood by human parents, you know. But that wasn't the divine plan.

No not profane in itself
It is a blessing from God for normal marriage

But anything consecrated to the service of God must be pure and Holy and only for His service
 
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prodromos

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I disagree
Which is your perogative. It is nevertheless a valid understanding of the text, and the behaviour of Jesus' brethren towards Him is consistent with being His older brothers.
You can't simply dismiss it and claim there is no support in Scripture for Mary's perpetual virginity.
 
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Albion

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It is nevertheless a valid understanding of the text, and the behaviour of Jesus' brethren towards Him is consistent with being His older brothers.
You can't simply dismiss it and claim there is no support in Scripture for Mary's perpetual virginity.
Unless there is some, we all should do exactly that.

And the theory you recounted for us is not at all persuasive. If a virgin is told by God or an angel or just about anyone in authority that she's going to give birth, her initial reaction is likely to be "How's that possible?"

The idea that she instead assesses what might happen during the whole of her life to come before making sense of the message is not convincing.

Obviously, the idea that she is apt to become pregnant at some time or other in the next twenty years like almost every other woman wouldn't be particularly surprising and certainly is nothing that would require an angel to deliver the news! ;)

If the Eastern Orthodox traditionally have seen the matter as you have laid it out for us here, however, then we can let it go at that.
 
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prodromos

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And the theory you recounted for us is not at all persuasive. If a virgin is told by God or an angel or just about anyone in authority that she's going to give birth, her initial reaction is likely to be "How's that possible?"
She isn't just a virgin, she is a virgin, betrothed to a man named Joseph, and her response isn't just "How's that possible?", she adds, "since I am not knowing a man". She knows how women usually conceive, yet she questions that possibility for her.
The idea that she instead assesses what might happen during the whole of her life to come before making sense of the message is not convincing.
I find your rebuttal to be even less so.
Obviously, the idea that she is apt to become pregnant at some time or other in the next twenty years like almost every other woman wouldn't be particularly surprising and certainly is nothing that would require an angel to deliver the news! ;)
We're not talking about modern Western culture where women put off having children for a decade or so to focus on their careers. In 1st century Palestine it would have been normal for a young bride to fall pregnant immediately after her marriage.
If the Eastern Orthodox traditionally have seen the matter as you have laid it out for us here, however, then we can let it go at that.
How magnanimous of you.
 
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Albion

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She isn't just a virgin, she is a virgin, betrothed to a man named Joseph, and her response isn't just "How's that possible?", she adds, "since I am not knowing a man".
All of that simply recounts the scene as I portrayed it in my previous post.

We're not talking about modern Western culture where women put off having children for a decade or so to focus on their careers.
Nor does that change anything about Mary and Joseph or what I stated before.
 
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Ephfourfive

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To Jesus thru Mary!

Let us see what the Saints say on the subject of Mary!

St. Bernard: "God has filled Mary with all graces, so that human beings may receive through her, as through a channel, every good that comes to them.
" Mary is an aqueduct filled to capacity, that others may receive of her fullness. Before the birth of Mary there was no constant flow of graces, because this aqueduct did not exist."
Holofernes, to gain possession of the city of Bethulia, ordered the aqueducts to be destroyed. So too the devil tries with all his power to destroy in souls devotion to the Mother of God, for if this channel of grace is closed, he has no trouble in gaining possession of them.
So St. Bernard continues: "See the tender devotion our Lord wants us to have for Mary , so that she may be honored. He has poured into her the fullness of every good, so that we might acknowledge that whatever hope or grace or other token of salvation we possess, we receive it through her fullness."
St. Antonine says the same thing: "Whatever grace the world has received has come down from Heaven through her."
And St. Bonaventure: " As the moon, standing between the sun and the earth, transmits to the earth whatever light it receives from the sun, so Mary stands between God and human beings and pours His grace upon us."
Again, the Church hails her as the "happy Gate of Heaven." And St. Bernard comments thus: "Just as every rescript of grace or of pardon that is sent by a king passes through the palace gates, in the same way every grace that comes from Heaven to the world passes through the hands of Mary."
St. Bonaventure says Mary is called "the Gate of Heaven because no one can enter that blessed Kingdom without passing through her."
The fullness of grace was in Christ as in the head, from which it flows to the whole body, and in Mary as in the neck, through which it flows. 35
Since the fullness of the Divine Nature dwelt in Mary's womb, the Blessed Virgin thereby acquired a kind of jurisdiction over all graces, for all the streams of Divine grace flow from her womb as from the ocean of Divinity which was within her. So says St. Bonaventure.
Repeating the same idea in more distinct terms, St. Bernardine of Siena asserts that from the moment when this Virgin Mother conceived the Divine Word in her womb, she acquired a special jurisdiction, so to say, over all the graces of the Holy Spirit. No creature has since received any grace from God except through the hands of Mary.
Another author speaks about this theme in a commentary on a passage of Jeremiah, in which the prophet, referring to the Incarnation of the Eternal Word and to Mary His Mother, says that the woman must encompass the man (Jer. 31:22).
He states: "No line can be drawn from the center of a circle without passing through the circumference. Similarly, no grace proceeds from Jesus, the center of every good thing, without passing through Mary, who encompassed Him when she received Him into her womb."
St. Bernardine of Siena says that for this reason all gifts, all virtues, and all graces are dispensed through Mary's hands to anyone she pleases, when she pleases, and as she pleases.
Richard of St. Lawrence also accepts that God wills that every good He bestows on His creatures should pass through Mary's hands.
Therefore, the Venerable Abbot of Celles exhorts all to go to the Blessed Virgin, because through her the world is to receive every good.
It is quite clear that when these Saints and authors tell us in such terms that all graces come to us through Mary, they do not mean simply that we received Jesus Christ, the source of every good, through Mary (as a certain writer pretends).
They mean that God, Who gave us Jesus Christ, wills that all graces that have been, are, and will be dispensed to human beings to the end of the world through the merits of Jesus Christ, should be dispensed by the hands and through the intercession of Mary.
A shoot shall sprout from the stump of Jesse, and from his roots a bud shall blossom. The spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him (Is. 11:1,2).
St. Bonaventure makes a beautiful comment on these words: Whoever yearn to possess the grace of the Holy Spirit, let them seek for the Bud in the Shoot (that is, for Jesus in Mary). For by the Shoot we find the Bud, and by the Bud the Holy Spirit . . . And if you long to have this Bud, bend down the Shoot of the Bud by prayer.
Since a man and a woman cooperated in our ruin, it was proper that another man and another woman should cooperate in our redemption, and these two were Jesus and His Mother Mary. 36
There is no doubt that Christ alone was more than sufficient to redeem us. Yet it was much more becoming that the two sexes should work together to repair the evil which the two had worked together to bring about. So St. Albert the Great calls Mary the "Co-helper of Redemption."
Our Blessed Lady made this revelation to St. Bridget: "Adam and Eve sold the world for a single apple; my Son and I bought it back with a single heart."
God was able to create the world out of nothing, but He is unwilling to restore it without the cooperation of Mary. 37
No person can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him (Jn. 6:44). In similar words, says Richard of St. Lawrence, Jesus speaks of His Mother: "No one comes to Me unless My Mother draws that person by her prayers."
Jesus was the fruit of Mary. Whoever wants the fruit must go to the tree. Whoever wants Jesus must go to Mary. whoever finds Mary will most certainly find Jesus.
Are we then going to scruple to ask her to save us when (as St. Germanus says) no one is saved except through her?
St. John Damascene had no hesitancy in addressing our Lady in these words: "Pure and Immaculate Queen, save me, and deliver me from eternal damnation. St. Bonaventure called Mary the salvation of those who invoke her.
Cassian tells us, without. qualification, that "the whole salvation of the human race depends on the great favor and protection of Mary." Whoever is protected by Mary will be saved; whoever is not will be lost.
Thus, Richard of St. Lawrence had good reason for saying: " As a stone falls into the abyss when the ground goes from under it, so a person deprived of Mary's help falls first into sin and then into Hell."
St. Bonaventure says: "God will not save us without the intercession of Mary." And again: " A child cannot live without a nurse to suckle it; neither can a person be saved without the protection of Mary."
And St. Germanus exclaims: "No one, O most holy Mary, can know God but through you. No one can be saved or redeemed but through you, O Mother of God. No one obtains mercy but through you, O full of all grace! . . .
"Human beings cannot be free from the effects of the concupiscence of the flesh, unless you open the way for them . . . Then what will become of us if you abandon us, O Life of Christians?"
But, a certain author objects, if all graces come through Mary, then when we ask the intercession of other Saints, they have to have recourse to the mediation of Mary. But no one, he argues, has ever believed or dreamed of such a thing.
As to believing it, I answer that there is no problem at all. What difficulty can there be in believing that God, to honor His Mother, after making her Queen of all Saints and wishing to have all graces pass through her hands, should also will that the Saints come to her to obtain favors for their clients?
Take, for one example, what Suarez says: " Among the Saints, we do not make use of one to intercede with the other, because they are all of the same order. But we do ask them to intercede with Mary, because she is their Sovereign and Queen.
Or consider St. Bonaventure: "Whenever the Most Blessed Virgin goes to God to intercede for us, she commands all the angels and Saints to accompany her because she is their Queen, and to unite their prayers to hers."
And as to saying that no one ever dreamed of such a thing, I find that St. Bernard, St. Anselm, St. Bonaventure, Suarez, and others expressly teach this doctrine. 

Luther said that he "could not endure the thought that the Church of Rome should call Mary, who is only a creature, 'our hope,' for God alone [he said], and Jesus Christ as our Mediator, is our hope." But the Church does teach us to invoke Mary on all occasions and call her our hope: "Hail, our hope!"
Certainly God is the only source and dispenser of every good, and the creature without God is nothing, and can give nothing.
But if our Lord has so arranged matters --- as we have already shown --- that all graces pass through Mary as through a channel of mercy, we not only can but must maintain that she, through whose means we receive God's graces, is truly our hope.
Listen to what the Saints say. My children, she is my greatest confidence and the whole foundation of my hope! (St. Bernard) O Lady, with all my heart I have placed my hope in you and, with my eyes fixed on you, I look for my salvation from you! (St. John Damascene)
Mary is the whole hope of our salvation. (St. Thomas) O most holy Virgin, receive us under your protection, for we have no hope of salvation but through your means! (St. Ephrem)
This is the will of God, that we should receive every good thing from her hand, says St. Bernard. Therefore he advises us to recommend ourselves to Mary whenever we look for any favor, and then we are bound to receive it by her means.
Though you yourself do not deserve the favor from God (he says), Mary is deserving of it. "Because you were unworthy of the gift, it was given to Mary, that through her you might receive whatever you have . . . And whatever you offer to God, make sure to commend it to Mary, unless you wish to be refused.
 
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