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How does it feel?

Veritas

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oworm said:
Yes it is true that the USA has not come under the same intensity of relativism as is evident in Europe. Post modern thinking is rife on a scale which is quite unprecedented. The rise of liberalism in the church marked the beggining of the decline and we have sunk into the morass of decadence matched only by the citys of Sodom and Gommorah. What is evil is being called good now and what is good is evil.

Finally! I thank you for your thoughtful and sincere reply. You should know though, that there is a very hostile movement underway in the States to eliminate God from public discourse. It won't succeed because the religious views of most of the population won't allow it. With Christmas coming up, there will be the usual outcry from the anti-Christian forces to deny public displays of creches and other religious symbols of the season. And I'm sure you're aware of the PC police that don't want the word "God" mentioned in public schools or anywhere else for that matter. We are constantly having to contend with the ACLU aka American Civil "Liberties" Union. But just as is always the case, when people feel persecuted, they become more fervent in their faith and there has been a steady backlash. America was founded on Christian principals and by Christian men.

So in a way was Europe. Sadly though, the EU wants no mention of God or the role Christianity plays in peoples lives. The pope was greatly distressed before his death that the EU constitution was not going to take his suggestion to include Christianity in it's document. This is not to imply that there is no religious faith of some people in Europe, but based on the evidence, it's clear that God has a shrinking role in nations and peoples. As an example, countries like Italy and France that are supposedly "Chrisitian" has below replacement rate birth rates. And in Germany, nearly 60% of women of child-bearing age do not have children. Whatever happened to be fruitful and multiply? Although it's beyond the scope of this discussion, there are dire economic results associated with this type of situation in socialistic countries which rely on heavy taxation to provide for their populations at all stages of life.
 
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Tangnefedd

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So in a way was Europe. Sadly though, the EU wants no mention of God or the role Christianity plays in peoples lives. The pope was greatly distressed before his death that the EU constitution was not going to take his suggestion to include Christianity in it's document. This is not to imply that there is no religious faith of some people in Europe, but based on the evidence, it's clear that God has a shrinking role in nations and peoples. As an example, countries like Italy and France that are supposedly "Chrisitian" has below replacement rate birth rates. And in Germany, nearly 60% of women of child-bearing age do not have children. Whatever happened to be fruitful and multiply? Although it's beyond the scope of this discussion, there are dire economic results associated with this type of situation in socialistic countries which rely on heavy taxation to provide for their populations at all stages of life.

The EU represents a great many faiths so it would be very wrong to single out one and give it prominance.

The world, as a whole, is over populated, why on earth should anyone reproduce for the sake of it? Many women have careers and don't want kids, which is fine. Others want a managable number of children so they can fit them around a career which is fine too. Thank goodness women are no longer expected to produce kids all through their childbearing years.
 
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Buttermilk

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Veritas said:
This is not to imply that there is no religious faith of some people in Europe, but based on the evidence, it's clear that God has a shrinking role in nations and peoples.

Just because people don't go to "organised" church services does not mean that God has a shrinking roll. Statistics show that many people do have Faith and practice it, but not within a church setting because they are so disillusioned with churches - I am not refering to any particular denomination I mean across the spectrum.


As an example, countries like Italy and France that are supposedly "Chrisitian" has below replacement rate birth rates. And in Germany, nearly 60% of women of child-bearing age do not have children.

And that makes the countries involved less Christian, why? :scratch:
 
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stranger

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Jer said:
By saying they do not have the baptism of the holy spirit you are judging them and so becoming wrong.


Each could judge for themselves whether they really have ALL truth of God and so know if they were baptised with the spirit or not ... and I only observe that all the people I talk to about it ADMIT THEMSELVES that they do not have ALL truth of God and know of no-one that does apart from Jesus and perhaps the saints...

Thus the judgment is not mine, I judge no-one , but the judgment is just and by people of themselves... but most do NOT realise the IMPLICATION ... that the scripture states in Jesus' own mouth that not having all truth of God indicates that one has not the baptism of the spirit that Jesus and the saints recieved ... again the statement is from Jesus , not by my judgment , I do no wrong by observing that almost all people I know of admit that they do not have ALL truth of God and repeating Jesus' statement about what that means ...



Now I'm not saying you're worse than anyone else for this, but it's an example of how we CANNOT live a life without judging people


Thus you are misled, I choose to obey Jesus and NOT judge people and one CAN live that way although it requires restraint ... why would Jesus say to not judge if we could not do it?

I am no saint, not least because I have not all truh of god, but you are very mistaken on this point, possibly even trying to justify that you judge people , and that is a mistake that Jesus explained


and so it shows that there are no saints who according to the reasoning outlined above will be raised at the first judgement
.


No it doesn't, there are saints, many of the disciples of Jesus for instance , some received the baptism of the spirit at the first Feast of weeks after Jesus' death for instance ... and Jesus lists the 144,000 saints from all time ... on average then but about 2000 alive at any one time on the earth , scattered amongst all nations ...


Also do you think we should go out and witness?

Clearly only the saints have all truth to witness, and Jesus and Paul only sent out the saints to do so, so why should sinners want to witness when they do not have all truth [and do not know whom they would be sent to either ... Jesus and Pauls ent their disciples to the house of Israel , why do sinners then go witness whatever they witness that is incomplete and comes at least partly from men , not God , to just anyone? It doesn't make any sense if they were trying to do what Jesus told his saints to do, cearly no-one without spirit baptism could...

Thus one comes to a very different conclusion about what is being done by christian missionaries and evangelists and so forth

Mt 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Mt 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Ac 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Most people who go out to 'witness' that I know of simply do not even know what the HOUSE of ISRAEL is !!!


Do you think we should bother doing good things? Because according to the logic that all will be raised to Christ then it doesn't matter about either. We will be raised with Him. I can go out there and kill 20 people, rape some people, and whatever else I want, as I will be forgiven with everyone else. Is that Just?


You forgot many things in what you call 'logic', the price of sin is paid in the wages of sin, death, but there is also the matter of how much deep woe men feel and the sense of having lost everything for sake of nothing ,when God confronts them with their real sins in life, all of them... it is so terrible a truth about ourselves , for God knows even the sin we will not admit to ourselves, that we cannot bear to hear it ... so much so that if god broke out on a man with His truth that it would kill most men [as happened in the OT] ...thus through jesus there is a better way for sinners, death and resurrection to a new life in the righteous new earth , all truth given in baptism of the spirit of all men, an oportunity to be righteous saints for all , a trial of that , and judgment of one's success at the end in the great judgment day of God...redemption for countless many [Rev 7:9-10] where this earth yielded but the few who go by the narrow way [Rev 7:3-8]

There is also the terrible day of the Lord after Jesus returns, a time when very many sinners see the cobnsequence of their sins come to fruition in the destruction of what we vainly call our 'way of life' [that is but a way of death!] ,that is indeed something terrible to men and due mot least to our habitual institutionalised sin that men just ignore because we are so familar with it ... most men do not even realise that the basis of our money system, compound interest, is a sin to God, it takes from the poor to give to the rich , continually .. it is not a fair balance and makes all men do in buying and selling evil simply because it is not fair and is taking from the poor instead of giving to the poor..

thus there is far more than one's salvation to consider in life and sin...



[BIBLE]1Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. Romans 13[/BIBLE]

The authorities , despite their corruption as sinners and service to Satan are just as integral to God's purpose, plan, will as any other sinners, it is not for the saints to disrupt God's plan ... that does not mena however that authorities are not judged for their sin , nor goes it mean that they are just [as for instance, it was authorities that unjustly crucified Jesus, but it had to happen and Jesus submitted himself to the false authority and injustice of sinful men who put on the false hats of human authotrity above that of God ...

That clearly declares that there will be judgement in this life. Does that mean that the authorities will not have the chance to be saints because they have to judge people? It clearly says there that God wants them to judge people who do wrong.

A short study of human justice readily revelas that it does not work very well, it does not rehabilitate criminal very effectively at all and rather corrupts people further whilst they are confibed with mostly only other criminals for company... also we know that the judgments are demonstrably false sometimes , the law is blind and does not even make every effort to justice ...
thus judges are indeed subject to judgement and will be faced with their sin and with the fact that they chose to judge men against the law of love that says they cannot do so until they are perfect and know all truth...

Thus God forbears sinful man in this earth FOR sake of HIS purpose and plan, that includes putting up with the disastrous judgments of sinful men and the decision of men to judge others in institutions... it does NOT mean that the saints should not submit themselves to unjust judgments, any more than Jesus did not submit himself to false judgment by sinners ...

The reason given in scripture is that to suffer injustice willingly for ultimate sake of others is a NECESSARY part of the perfection of the saints ...
 
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meebs

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Veritas said:
Although religious faith is constantly under attack in the US, it's still a rather religious country. I'm wondering though, what it feels like for you British folks to live in a country that is non- and even anti-religious. Europe as a whole has become quite Godless and I find that troubling. Years ago I lived in Austria and the only people that went to church were tourists and old people. I felt out of place being so young at the time. How did Europe get this way? And how do people handle crisis and trouble in their lives without a faith background?

Youve obviously not been to the right place.

To be honest i sometimes feel that some aspects of our lives are still run too much by the church and by the opinions of relgieous leaders.

There are still many christians here and their voice is heard.

I dont mean badly btw - i respect their opinion as much as anybody elses...
 
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steverock

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i think that the Church in this country has shot itself in the foot long ago to be honest.
the reason why there are declining church attendences is because the Church bowed out to the pressure to become more and more liberal during the last century. people lost respect for the Church for doing that and so became disillusioned with it, hence lower church attendences.
if the Church actually stood up for what is in the Bible and didnt twist it around to fit in with current social trends then im sure, although some people may not like it, people will probably respect the Church and know that it stands for something rather than just having become an irrelevance in this society.

however, i still think that it certainly isnt dead in the UK or Europe. i think that the UK in particular is starting to see the benefits of christianity ahead of the liberal, anything goes attitude. remember the program "No Sex Please, We're Teenagers" that was on a few weeks ago? the people in that program could see why the bibles advice of no sex before marriage makes sense. it isnt there to spoil peoples fun, its to protect future, meaningful relationships, stops STIs spreading, stops teenage pregnancies and abortions, etc. thats just one of the examples of the bible having it right yet again but society having ignored it because the Church lost all of it reputation when it stopped taking a stance on issues. hopefully the program went a long way to promoting christianity to people who think that it stops people living their lives.
 
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Buttermilk

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steverock said:
the reason why there are declining church attendences is because the Church bowed out to the pressure to become more and more liberal during the last century. people lost respect for the Church for doing that and so became disillusioned with it, hence lower church attendences.

I am a liberal and hence obviously that is NOT the reason I am disillusioned. Churches in general, IMHO, are the biggest thing to turn people off Faith.


anything goes attitude.
That is not the Christian liberal stance :)
 
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steverock

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Buttermilk said:
I am a liberal and hence obviously that is NOT the reason I am disillusioned. Churches in general, IMHO, are the biggest thing to turn people off Faith.



That is not the Christian liberal stance :)

here is what i meant by liberal to avoid confusion: too much compromise with social changes which affects peoples translation of the bible, resulting in a watered down christianity so it doesnt offend anyone.
you may not have the same definition but that is what i meant by it just so you know :)

i think that over the last century the Church has backed down too many times rather than stand up for what the bible says to make sure they dont offend anyone. i think that has, generally, been a major reason why people have lost respect for the Church. obviously im not claiming to know THE answer to the problem because im not that smart and there will be loads of different reasons for the decline in church attendence but IMO this is one of the main reasons.

when i said "anything goes attitude" i meant it from a secular point of view not a christian liberal in that context. :thumbsup: sorry bout that - should've made myself clearer :)
 
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Martin^^

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This thread raises the question of how we can measure the ‘godliness’ of a nation.

On one level, it is irrelevant. If people are to be judged on their behaviour and moral choices as individuals, it does not matter if the country they live in is ‘godly’ or ‘anti-religious’. Is Russia a more godly country now that churches are not oppressed? There seems to be even more crime and immorality than there was under the Soviet regime, although they now have political and religious freedom.

True, the US was partly colonized by religious people fleeing persecution in Europe. But they did not seek to found a religious nation – they started with the principle of keeping church and state separate. Freedom of religious expression did not come from building religion into the constitution, but by keeping the state apparatus neutral on matters of religion.

It is also dangerous to assume that we can measure the moral temperature of the nation by counting the number of churchgoers. Church attendances were very high in 17th and 18th century Britain, but Catholics and Protestants were imprisoning and executing each other – were things better then?
 
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Buttermilk

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ScottishJohn

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Buttermilk said:
Not that I am aware of, but that is not to say that there aren't football players who are Christians.

lol when I was wee it was Brian Irvine (Aberdeen) who was our Christian football idol!

He went to Deeside Christian Fellowship. They used to play our church at football every year. The guy who owned Cordiners Garages went to Deeside so they used to turn up with a professional on the team and sponsored strips, and our church fielded a 50 + average age team playing in cut off denims! Funny thing was we always wiped the park with them! :D
 
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Bonhoffer

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Veritas said:
Although religious faith is constantly under attack in the US, it's still a rather religious country. I'm wondering though, what it feels like for you British folks to live in a country that is non- and even anti-religious. Europe as a whole has become quite Godless and I find that troubling. Years ago I lived in Austria and the only people that went to church were tourists and old people. I felt out of place being so young at the time. How did Europe get this way? And how do people handle crisis and trouble in their lives without a faith background?
Its quite bad. Its not so much that British society is actively anti-God, its more that they are quite ignorant of Him. Ignorance of Christianity is more a problem than planned opposition to it. So many young people dont know a thing about Jesus, the Bible or Europes Christian heritage. Something like 50% of Brits didnt know that Easter was to do with the death and ressurection of Jesus. In fact in one study a teenage girl thought Easter was something to do with hanging rabbits on a cross. There is no Christian foundation to British society any more and this is why I believe there has been a moral decline. There is a lot of emptiness in peoples lives and the New Age has been trying to step in and fill the gap. People have a lot of misconceptions about Christianity, Christians and the church. Born again Christians have been marginalised in peoples minds as another weird group like trainspotters and Trekkies. The common perception of the church is one of 'boring elderly vicars preaching in ancient church buildings to small groups of old women who sing dull hymns and knit cardingans'. We are not taken seriously by many people. The media takes more of an interest in Islam and the fashions of David Beckham than it does in Britains historic faith. In fact they probably mention Davids name more often than they mention Jesus Christ.
A fifty years ago there would have been a large amount of people who had heard the gospel and chosen to stubbornly reject it. But in the 21st century so few people have been presented with the true gospel that they havent had the opportunity to reject it. Many people either dont know that theres a gospel or are confused about what the gospel is. Although Britain is certainly secular it isnt that atheistic when compared to other western countries like France. The faith of the typical Brit could best be described as 'some vague belief in God'.

However despite the many problems there are some good things about the UK and I see some hope for British Christianity. Organised opposition to Christianity is not as militant as it is in countries like France. There is religious freedom in the UK and few people are openly hostile towards us. People tend to tolerate us, even though this is often done by ignoring us.
There is a notable rise in some of the more contemporary evangelical churches. A small handful of churches are growing, whilst many of the older and more traditional denominations are struggling.
Although many churches are mediorce, there are some real gems too.

Although I dislike the stronghold that liberal theology has on the church, we have benefited in many ways from having a more liberal mindset than the US Bible-belt. British Christians are very charitable and get involved in social issues. Church-goers are very compassionate over here. Virtues such as love, understanding and respect for people who are different from us are key messages preached and lived by the church. Of course this has been twisted to become politically correct overtolerance and the condoning of sin, but this is probably better than the bigoted zealotry of people such as Fred Phelps. Christian extremism is a rarity, although it would help for the UK church to become a bit more radical. We are also very good at explaining and reasoning our beliefs, although some have taken to comprimising the Bible in order to do this.

There is also a strong presence of black Christians in the UK. Black people tend to be very religious and it is estimated that they make up to half of the church going numbers in London. The black Christian community has had a largely positive effect on the UK church.

There is also the phenomenal success of the Alpha course which was birthed in the Church of England. I also believe that a secular government actually suits the gospel better than a religious state would. Christianity works better when it is freed from the hands of corrupt governments. I think that Britains welfare state and human rights laws make it a more humane country than the US. I believe that social democracy is far more Christian than the right-wing laisz-faire Bush administration that so many US evangelicals strongly support.

America, or at least the South, is far too religious for my liking. The US is too much the other way. The church in the UK and the church in the US seem to represent the two opposite extremes of Christianity. Whilst British Christianity tends to be humanistic, liberal, ineffective and too polite; American Christianity is catogrised as being judgemental, legalistic, brash and loud! I hate the way that Gods name is used to justify immoral foreign policies and to oppress people. I find all these pro-lifers who support the death penalty to be hypocrical. I think I prefer having my country run by agnostic humanists than by religious Pharisees.

(please note: I love America and Americans. I just have issues with the US like I have issues with the UK)
 
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ScottishJohn

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I think we are just suffering a hangover from Victorian artificial Christianity. I think the idea that any society is ever predominantly Christian is a myth, and that most societies both before and after Christ have a very similar level of immorality, and just vary in terms of how the view those acts and whether they try to cover them up, or not.

Look at it this way: For instance, in Scotland we have according to the census approx 77% Christians, yet only 11% go to church. (rough stats based on faulty memory - think they are nearly right!)

So either we look at this as an awful thing, or we say - hey if we were in business we would be looking at anything from an 89% market share up for grabs ie an opportunity!
 
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Bonhoffer

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Buttermilk said:
Not that I am aware of, but that is not to say that there aren't football players who are Christians.
Taribo West(Plymouth Argile; ex-Derby country and former Nigerian international)
Stuart Elliot (Hull City FC striker and Northern Ireland international)
Gavin Peacock (former Chelsea, Charlton, QPR and Newcastle player. He now commentates)
Tim Howard (former Man Utd keeper and a US international)
Marvin Andrews (Rangers defender. He seeks faith healing whenever he gets injured.)


Also Ceril Regis the former West Brom star and now a coach!
 
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Martin^^

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Veritas said:

I have never heard of prayers being said by any UK professional soccer team. Most teams are too multicultural to allow for any common religious ceremony to be held. The last instance of faith matters getting involved in soccer that I recall was the controversial use of a faith healer by England coach, Glen Hoddle:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sport/football/177584.stm

The reaction he received would discourage anyone else from mixing faith and football, I think...

However, there used to community singing before FA cup finals, which included hymns such as Jerusalem and Abide With Me - I don't know if these still happen, maybe someone else can advise?
 
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Bonhoffer

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Tangnefedd said:
Render unto Caesar and all that, faith is personal and should not be mixed with the secular imo!

Yes, I believe that seperation of church and state is a biblical concept.
However even if God does prefer governments to be secular, that doesnt mean that Christians should avoid getting involved in politics or that politicians should ignore the UKs Christian heritage. I think that it is best for politics to start from a Christian worldveiw and to be built on true Christian values. If our politics is inspired by the teachings of Jesus then it easier to reject evil idealogies like fascism, racism, radical feminism and communism. I still think that parliament should open up in prayer and that MPs should be encouraged to prayer for the issues that the government faces. However this shouldnt be compulsory and atheist MPs should be free to choose not to pray. My ideal government would be a secular one that just happens to be full of born again Christians.

The problem of theocracy is that it is very rare what it proports to be. If theocracy means a nation led by God then I'm all for that. I believe that after the second coming the redeemed will all be living in a theocracy led by Jesus Christ. I also believe that God wanted Israel in certain sections of its history to be a theocracy. God choose men like King David to be theocratic kings.
But modern day theocracy is not a nation state run by God, but a nation state run by corrupt religious leaders who use the name of God to get people to follow their own agenda. People can become very powerful if they can convince the public that they are Gods representive on earth and therefore infallible. They can threaten trade union leaders that God will kill their wives if the unions dont disband. They can claim that God told them to invade another country and dismiss peace activists as heretics. They can threaten eternal damnation for anyone who refuses to back their plans. Theocracy can be very dangerous because wicked people can claim Gods authority for themselves. Most governments, whether secular or religious, are in truth pretty Godless, but at least secular states are honest about it.
Secular governments may ignore God, but at least they dont take His name in vain and twist His words to suit their own agenda.
 
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Bonhoffer

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However I do believe that seperation of church and state should be a consistant policy.
I recently heard that a UK council have spent £100,000 on a firework display for a Divili festival. This is a violation of seperation of church and state. I also think that secular schools should be banned from promoting Halloween and from studying Harry Potter(unless the children are taught about the concerns that some people of faith have with the books).
 
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Steve_SandbachBaptist_UK

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Jer said:
I would say that a number of Americans are going to church because it's the social norm, rather than from true faith. But I also think there are a lot more christians out there who are real christians as well. So many in the UK claim they are christian but they don't live it, and haven't looked at a bible or been in a church or that type of thing.

The reason we are more secular I think is because the christians here are generally lazy. We have our own little religious bubble which we live in and there is no way you are going to get us out of it. Also we are watering down the faith so much that it's not different from anything else. Oh, all ways will get you to hevean and stuff like that, when Jesus said He is the only way.

An all round excellent post (in my opinion ;) ) but these sections seem to ring true... in some cases. I'm just glad that God has placed me in not one but two churches where at least some people live for God completely and have a passion for reaching out. :)

Steve

 
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