Freakconformist said:
So by the Holy Spirit we are justified in our condemnation? I think not.
I realise that you "think not", but I submit that this is possibly because you heard or read other people talk or even teach that way and perhaps never got around to thinking: "Condemned to what?" ...
thus I ask that you consider that the wages of sin is simply [mortal] death , that is what sinners are condemned to, to die, that is all ... in death one is freed from past sin, the price is paid ...
but all who die go to hell, just as even Jesus went to hell at death [Acts 2:31] ...
but through Jesus we all have now a solution to death, as Jesus showed, all who die are guaranteed resurrection , the first resurrection for the justified saints who die in Christ, the second resurrection for all sinners ... thus hell will be empty eventually ... !
But very many christians say souls are condemned to be somehow lost , even those who had no chance whatever of believibg in Jesus in this life and the strangge thing about this is that there is no evidence whatever for it in scripture all souls are resurrected to the body , just as Jesus went around showing people that he was resurrected to the body, NOT to the spirit [only some time later was he translated to spirit because he had been through trial and God found him perfect, sin-less, and thus justified to redemption...
If God had indeed comdemned souls to some sort of limbo or to non-existence just because they never had a chance to believe in Jesus, would that be even slightly just or loving ? Clearly not! ...but indeed that is not what scripture says ... God resurrects all sinners from hell snd at some time after that will judge them but he cannot judge them on what they did before death, that has been wiped out by their paying the price of sin in death ... equally WHY should God resurrect sinners from hell jsut to judge them yet again and send them back to hell if they were already pre-judged at death.. again it is nonsense only made credible to some beacuse many say it without considering what it would mean or what ALL the scripture says about resurrected sinners ...
So let us consider a scriptural prohecy :-
Joel 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
[this repaeted in NT by Paul -Acts 2:17-18]
Clearly our most of our sons and daughters do not yet prophecy so God has not yet poured His spirit out on all flesh, but what will be the effect when he does [apart from mass prophesying and visions ] :-
John 16:13 Howbeit
when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will
guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will
shew you things to come.
Eph 5:9 (For the
fruit of the Spirit is in
all goodness and
righteousness and
truth
Thus it is baptism of the spirit that ENABLES righteousness by giving all truth of God to men .... Jesus and the saints received it and were/are perfected through trial of their faith made possible because ALL truth of God anables one NOT to be deceived by Satan's wiles and empty temptations of flesh...
BUT how many christians have all truth of god BEFORE they die , I submit that it is very few, the saints only ... most christians I know of died without ALL truth of God and the implication of that is that they were not baptised of the spirit since god has NOT poured His spirit out on the many, only on the few saints of Israel ...as YET!
So consider the above scripture in relation to the sinners who died already ...clearly they did not receive baptism of the spirit in this life ,so this scripture guarantees that they will receive all truth of God in the new earth !
So all sinners lose their past sin in death, are give all truth by god ,and thus have every opportunity to live a righteous life in the righteous new earth up until the judgment day of God.... so if they are righteous and perfect themselves by trial in the new earth just as Jesus and the sasints did in this earth, what do you think god's judgment will be? ... No need to guess because God tells us the answer in scripture :-
e,g, Ezek 33:19 But if the wicked turn from his wickedness, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall live thereby.
thus God is far more merciful than men give Him credit for in the traditions of men, and the scripture explains that [but men have had millenia to misrepresent scripture in and they have ended up changing scripture to fit their traditions instead of reproving traditions to fit ALL the scripture ]
We have the right to inspect our own lives and to steer our course ever closer to the Lords.
As you probably know, even a single sin makes one imperfect , thus getting closer is not good enough for redemption by translation of the spirit , that requires that one is the very image of the Son of God, Jesus, perfect, sin-less.... NO-ONE can do this without all truth of God which ONLY comes by God's giving it WHEN He will [according to HIS plan, purpose and will, not our will!]
Thus as Jesus said , NO-ONE enters the kingdom of God without baptism of the spirit :-
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water
and of the Spirit, he
cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Thus we all await receiving all truth of God BEFORE we even CAN get to heaven [as spirit]
So it is good news for EVERYONE that God will baptise ALL flesh into ALL trth of God [as Joel's prophecy states and Paul repeats in NT] , but what christians might see as bad news [because it reproves common christian belief] is that ALL sinners MUST wait until after the second resurrection for all truth of God... one is only condemned to death by sin, one is not yet rejected by God by any means ... Jesus came to redeem ALL sinners and Rev 7:9-10 shows the uncountable number redeemed at judgment ...
Thus it is both very weird and unscriptural to pretend that God judges man in THIS earth, Gd has said when He will judge, He does not prejudge , sin omly condemns one to death and to destruction of the body, it is far from the end for the soul ... and the spirit returns to God in any case :-
Ec 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
However Judgement is not ours, niether is retribution in case you are wondering. More then once God has reserved that right for Himself.
It would be well to remeber that when pronouncing the condemnation of 'unbelievers' which God has not condemned to anything more than mortal death of the body ... which all will escape in resurrection ... there is plenty of time after resurrection for sinners t be righteous and to believe i Jesus after God has gven them all His truth ...
If a man breaks man's law, then he is judged by man's laws. If a man breaks his covenant with God though, then is God's right to judge him.
That is true enough, but if you read the scripture you will find that God has no covenant yet with most men, there are very good reasons for this , God's purpose and plan ,which curiously most people do not bother to study in scripture ...
Thus you will find covenants with various Hebrews , and the old and new covenants with Israel in scripture ... the new covenant [Jer 31:31-34, Heb 8:6-13] specifically ONLY with the House of Judah [Jews] and the House of Israel [ Israelites who were never Jews, paganised as gentiles , the nation that disappeared, became "not a people" , but to whom alone God sent Jesus] :-
Mt 15:24 But he answered and said,
I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the
house of Israel.
Mt 10:6 But
go rather to the lost sheep of the
house of Israel.
Ac 2:36 Therefore
let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified,
both Lord and Christ.
Thus Jesus is the prophesied Messiah who is the annointed king of Israel ... Israel will be kings and priests [Ex 19:6] in the new earth [since they never were that and Jesus is in heaven until he returns] , a royal priesthood [1Pet 2:9-10] , so Jesus is King of the kings of Israel who rule in the new earth over billions of resurrected sinners ... but the new earth is RIGHTEOUS, no sin is permitted there by Jesus and His saints , Jesus rules with a "rod of iron", complete righteousness under pain of a second [mortal] death [again for sin , to purge that sin yet again. the price of sin has not changed] - and then the lake of fire for te most evil [which is a different fascinating thread really, but note that there is no more daeth and no more hell, they both END at the lake of fire , hell does not continue once it is empty and no more dead enter it ]
Genisis 18:24-25
24 What if there are fifty righteous people in the city? Will you really sweep it away and not spare [forgive] the place for the sake of the fifty righteous people in it? 25 Far be it from you to do such a thingto kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge [Ruler] of all the earth do right?"
Not quite sure why you quoted this, but God will indeed do right, so it is just as well that men are not right about their tradition that men are condemned to more than mortal death for sin , God's mercy endures fro all time [which the bible repeats over a hundred times, more than any other principle, but which is denied by men's tradition in most christianity...
Deuteronomy 32: 36
The LORD will judge his people
and have compassion on his servants
when he sees their strength is gone
and no one is left, slave or free.
It is indeed true taht almost all the saints will die in christ, but it is not possible for hell to hold them, any more than it was for Jesus, thus all saints that die are resurrected at the first resurrection, to the body, prior to translation to spirit soon after, because like Jesus that were erfected in trial in THIS life... all others are NOT erfected in this life simply because they do not have ALL truth of God and are thus tempted away by Satan all-too-easily .. but a little study reveals that this is no less than exact unfolding of God's plan and purpose .. God never intended to redeem al men until He had established a perfect priesthood [the order of Melchizedek] under Jesus ,as hgih priests, to minister in the salvation of billions in the new earth ... that is why Israel is first, God needs the priesthood set up first [and they judge angels too during the millenium]
1 Samuel 24: 12
12 May the LORD judge between you and me. And may the LORD avenge the wrongs you have done to me, but my hand will not touch you.
Again the punishment for sin is death , watching their ways in this world crumble to nothing, and the woe that overtakes men when they realise what they have done that separates them a bit longer from God , why do you seek more than that very just and aopropriate redemptive puinishment by God?
1 Chronicles 16: 33
Then the trees of the forest will sing, they will sing for joy before the LORD, for he comes to judge the earth.
God will indeed judge the earth and almost all men will die and this earth and heavens pass away, but then ALL men are resurrected to a new opportunity in a new earth , a righteous plavce where God can come down and live with men again because righteousness is the condition of life in the new earth .
Matthew 7:1-2
1"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
Luke quotes the same sermon:
Luke 6: 37-38
37"Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. 38Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."
Indeed, only the saints and Jesus and God can judge rightly, so there is no way men can judge rightly before baptism of the spirit.... but that does not stop one pointing out the judgments made by God, Jesus , the prophets, the saints , in scripture , they are not one's own judgments , but rely completely only on the truth of scripture about God's judgments... hence scripture is powerful truth...
Luke 18: 6-7
6And the Lord said, "Listen to what the unjust judge says. 7And will not God bring about justice for his chosen ones, who cry out to him day and night? Will he keep putting them off?
It is indeed true that even the saints wait upon God for baptsism of the spirit and for the judgment to pass on those who killed the saints ... but again God's judgment is PRODUCTIVE, His punishments aimed at redemptio of sinners, not losing them [as if He could love them and lose them]
John 5: 22- 23
22Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father...
I reiterate that this is a pointless thread and nobody, but God, has a right to condem anybody as "God-less", much less whole countries.
Again there are very few who could make that judgment [whatever it means, i am not even sure what people think they mean by it] , but if one could put it into terms relevant to scripture then one might get a judgment of god in relation to it [as I attempted to show in my above post... not a personal judgment, but one relative completely t what God says is true in scripture ....
Originally Posted by: Latreia
It is ridiculous to assume one knows everything about living in a country one has not spent their entire lives in.
