How does God perform thinking?

[tonychanyt]

Yes, Jesus asserted that if the mighty works done in Capernaum had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. —True.

Let proposition Q1 = Jesus denied any possibility that the works done in Capernaum could have been done in Sodom.

Is Q1 true?

 

[Mark Quayle]

Let proposition Q1 = Jesus denied any possibility that the works done in Capernaum could have been done in Sodom.

Is Q1 true?

No, he did not deny it. Q1 is not only something we let be a proposition, and thus is itself suspect by that criteria , but the proposition does not of itself assert nor establish fact. Yet, NO, it is not true that Jesus denied any possibility that the works done in Capernaum could have been done in Sodom. Yet the opposite is also false —i.e., Jesus did not claim that the works done in Capernaum could have been done in Sodom.

 

[tonychanyt]

No, he did not deny it. Q1 is not only something we let be a proposition, and thus is itself suspect by that criteria , but the proposition does not of itself assert nor establish fact. Yet, NO, it is not true that Jesus denied any possibility that the works done in Capernaum could have been done in Sodom. Yet the opposite is also false —i.e., Jesus did not claim that the works done in Capernaum could have been done in Sodom.

Thanks for the clarification.

Matthew 6:14 For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.

Jesus asserts that it is possible for you to forgive other people when they sin against you.

True?

 

[Mark Quayle]

Thanks for the clarification.

Matthew 6:14 For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.

Jesus asserts that it is possible for you to forgive other people when they sin against you.

True?

False. That statement does not assert that it is possible to forgive other people. We do know from other injunctions that we SHOULD forgive, but "the command does not imply the ability to obey". As always, the command shows us our need for Christ. —However, there are other passages of Scripture...

Meanwhile, we who are regenerated can well believe that we are able to obey, (though, empirically, we see that we are inconsistent in obeying); while those who, as Romans 8 describes, live according to the flesh are unable to submit to God's law, nor to please God.

 

[tonychanyt]

False. That statement does not assert that it is possible to forgive other people.

See If you believe that Jesus does not assert that it is possible for you to forgive other people when they sin against you, and you wish to wager on it, and follow up there.

 

[RDKirk]

KevinT said:
I mostly agree, but assert that God can create a universe with randomness


How do you prove this? How is "random" more than a human concept-by-ignorance?

Where does the verse imply that the "mighty works done in [Capernaum] [could have] been done in Sodom"? It only says that if they had been done, Sodom would have remained. I think you have inferred something not implied.

I tend to agree. God can state where a hypothetical path would certainly lead without indicating that the hypothetical path was ever a real possibility.

Satan could state, "Bow to me and all these things I will give to you"--a hypothetically true statement--to a Jesus who had no possibility of ever bowing to him.

If all the necessary determining factors are in place for an event to happen, it will happen. If it didn't happen, it was because all the necessary determinant factors were not in place...which means it could not have happened.

 

[tonychanyt]

I tend to agree. God can state where a hypothetical path would certainly lead without indicating that the hypothetical path was ever a real possibility.

Satan could state, "Bow to me and all these things I will give to you"--a hypothetically true statement--to a Jesus who had no possibility of ever bowing to him.

If all the necessary determining factors are in place for an event to happen, it will happen. If it didn't happen, it was because all the necessary determinant factors were not in place...which means it could not have happened.

Matthew 6:14 For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.

Jesus asserts that it is possible for you to forgive other people when they sin against you.

True?

 

[RDKirk]

Matthew 6:14 For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.

Jesus asserts that it is possible for you to forgive other people when they sin against you.

True?

No, Jesus is asserting that the route of forgiving others leads to forgiveness from the Father.

That might not be possible at all for a human, except through the power of the Holy Spirit for it's only in God that all things are possible.

 

[tonychanyt]

No, Jesus is asserting that the route of forgiving others leads to forgiveness from the Father.

See Sodom would be better off than Capernaum on judgment day and follow up there

 

[Mark Quayle]

See If you believe that Jesus does not assert that it is possible for you to forgive other people when they sin against you, and you wish to wager on it, and follow up there.

If the statement, "Jesus asserts that it is possible for you to forgive other people when they sin against you." is only referring to Matthew 6:14, aside from context and other qualifiers, then the statement is false.

But, I thought we'd already been through this. Nevertheless, I responded on your linked thread, now.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I tend to agree. God can state where a hypothetical path would certainly lead without indicating that the hypothetical path was ever a real possibility.

Satan could state, "Bow to me and all these things I will give to you"--a hypothetically true statement--to a Jesus who had no possibility of ever bowing to him.

If all the necessary determining factors are in place for an event to happen, it will happen. If it didn't happen, it was because all the necessary determinant factors were not in place...which means it could not have happened.

Agreed. Take, for example, the hypothetical complete and unbroken obedience of a believer, demanded by God. Impossible, or so history would show, except for Jesus' example. We have no evidence that what does not happen could have happened.

In your example, hotly contested by the self-deterministic libertarian free-willers, that Jesus being God means that it was impossible for him to fall to Satan's temptations, your statement doesn't even imply that it was automatic that Jesus would not fall, since he was God, but, rather, simply that it was SURE that he would not fall, since that is all that he being God logically impinges on the question.

 

[KevinT]

Can I just say that I like to think of myself of being capable of logical consideration and deduction etc. But I have had a very hard time figuring out what @Mark Quayle and @tonychanyt are disagreeing about. Seems to be about counterfactuals??

Do bother trying to explain...
KT

EDIT: I meant DON'T bother...

 

[Mark Quayle]

Can I just say that I like to think of myself of being capable of logical consideration and deduction etc. But I have had a very hard time figuring out what @Mark Quayle and @tonychanyt are disagreeing about. Seems to be about counterfactuals??

Do bother trying to explain...
KT

Ha! I'm not sure myself what @tonychanyt thinks here. I don't know First Order Logic by that name, but I know that when someone makes an "if - then" statement, there is no implication, merely by that statement, that the IF part could happen. I'm just trying to button him down on that, so that I can then try to find out why he thinks he has reason to believe that there are possibilities that will not come to pass. As far as I know, that has never happened, so why do we think they could? I should think the plain fact that they didn't happen is proof enough that they couldn't have, since all (except First Cause Himself) is a result of causation.

I will agree that IF there are possibilities that will not happen, that God has full knowledge and control of them. But I don't read God changing his mind like a human does. Even where it is worded that way in scripture it doesn't mean that he isn't sure just what he will do, but only that he changed the direction of his actions.

But Tony's a busy guy and can't devote all his energies to dealing with this. I do enjoy most of his posts and his thinking.

 

[KevinT]

I don't know First Order Logic by that name, but I know that when someone makes an "if - then" statement, there is no implication, merely by that statement, that the IF part could happen. I'm just trying to button him down on that...

I think there are two issues at play. First I think you all are discussing counterfactuals, which wikipedia describes as: "conditional sentences which discuss what would have been true under different circumstances, e.g. 'If Peter believed in ghosts, he would be afraid to be here.'"

so that I can then try to find out why he thinks he has reason to believe that there are possibilities that will not come to pass. As far as I know, that has never happened, so why do we think they could? I should think the plain fact that they didn't happen is proof enough that they couldn't have, since all (except First Cause Himself) is a result of causation.

I think the second issue is that you see the universe as ordered, not random. I.e. God knows everything that is going to happen in the future, so why would God discuss something that is never going to happen -- because He knows it will never happen? Something like the silliness of saying, "If John grows a third arm, he would be better at juggling."

I will agree that IF there are possibilities that will not happen, that God has full knowledge and control of them. But I don't read God changing his mind like a human does. Even where it is worded that way in scripture it doesn't mean that he isn't sure just what he will do, but only that he changed the direction of his actions.

I personally believe that God purposely built randomness into the Universe, such that He Himself might not know every detail of the future. My justification for this can be found here. But that is not the purpose of the OP or of the discussion between you two. So I'm going to leave this discussion to the two of you.

Best wishes,
KT

 

[RDKirk]

I personally believe that God purposely built randomness into the Universe, such that He Himself might not know every detail of the future. My justification for this can be found here. But that is not the purpose of the OP or of the discussion between you two. So I'm going to leave this discussion to the two of you.

That's not a god to be depended on. That's just a buddy who has good wishes for you.

 

[Mark Quayle]

That's not a god to be depended on. That's just a buddy who has good wishes for you.

See if you can pose a representative OP to a new thread and invite Kevin. (And me ). I think @KevinT has not defined what he means there, by "random". But I would like to answer his post —as he said, not in this thread.

 

[KevinT]

See if you can pose a representative OP to a new thread and invite Kevin. (And me ). I think @KevinT has not defined what he means there, by "random". But I would like to answer his post —as he said, not in this thread.

For others, see discussion with @Mark Quayle on these topics here.

KT