How do you view Theistic Evolutionists?

[Silent Enigma]

I was just wondering how other creationists view Theistic Evolutionists. (And I'm referring to Christian TEs, not general TEs.)

I'll think about it and post my opinion later, but for now I just wanted to get the conversation started.

 

[Pats]

I was just wondering how other creationists view Theistic Evolutionists. (And I'm referring to Christian TEs, not general TEs.)

I'll think about it and post my opinion later, but for now I just wanted to get the conversation started.

I think one thing to keep in mind when discussing something like this is that Christian TE's are our brothers and sisters in Christ. I am called to accept anyone who professes faith in Jesus and acceptance of His salvation as such.

I have been of the mindset that acceptance in Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour is the most important concept taught in the Scriptures, as this is what saves us from comdemnation. I still tend to view various theologies as secondary to this.

I accept the YEC POV as truth, and believe that evolutionist concepts such as common descent are unproved and flawed. However, what if evolution vs creation theology is the only thing stopping a person from having a personal relationship with Jesus? And the only way they can accept the Scriptures as truth is to interprate the Creation story as allegorical?

This is an issue I've been really thinking about just recently, as I've been sharing my faith with a pagan evolutionist for the last two years. He believes one of the reasons he can't trust the Bible is because it contains the story of creation. Maybe a less literal view of that is what he needs to accept Christ?

Fellow Creationists, is that ok? Is it possible the Holy Spirit might use such theologies to accomplish God's ultimate goal of saving the lost?

Pats

 

[1denomination]

I think one thing to keep in mind when discussing something like this is that Christian TE's are our brothers and sisters in Christ. I am called to accept anyone who professes faith in Jesus and acceptance of His salvation as such.

I have been of the mindset that acceptance in Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour is the most important concept taught in the Scriptures, as this is what saves us from comdemnation. I still tend to view various theologies as secondary to this.

I accept the YEC POV as truth, and believe that evolutionist concepts such as common descent are unproved and flawed. However, what if evolution vs creation theology is the only thing stopping a person from having a personal relationship with Jesus? And the only way they can accept the Scriptures as truth is to interprate the Creation story as allegorical?

This is an issue I've been really thinking about just recently, as I've been sharing my faith with a pagan evolutionist for the last two years. He believes one of the reasons he can't trust the Bible is because it contains the story of creation. Maybe a less literal view of that is what he needs to accept Christ?

Fellow Creationists, is that ok? Is it possible the Holy Spirit might use such theologies to accomplish God's ultimate goal of saving the lost?

Pats

Couldn't have said it any better myself pats. The bottom line is they are our brothers and sisters. What else is there to be said.

 

[vossler]

I accept the YEC POV as truth, and believe that evolutionist concepts such as common descent are unproved and flawed. However, what if evolution vs creation theology is the only thing stopping a person from having a personal relationship with Jesus? And the only way they can accept the Scriptures as truth is to interprate the Creation story as allegorical?

Essentially what you're asking is; do we change the message in order get the person. I think this is what got us into this fix to begin with. We've compromised Scripture in order to fit in billions of years. Thankfully, God doesn't call us to save people, that's the Holy Spirit's job, we're called to preach the truth, nothing more nothing less.

Fellow Creationists, is that ok? Is it possible the Holy Spirit might use such theologies to accomplish God's ultimate goal of saving the lost?

Pats

I would find it blasphemous to think that the Holy Spirit would use false theology in order to convert the lost.

If this idea were true, at what point would God draw the line?

 

[shernren]

I hope this isn't construed as being a debate post.

In terms of precedent, this wouldn't have been the first time. For example, when Balaam prophesied, he prophesied about the coming of Jesus no less. Some scholars suggest that his prophecy was the one which inspired the Magi to search for Jesus in Bethlehem. In which case we have a nugget of truth passing through an idolatrous medium to worthy people. Sort of like an atheist receiving Jesus through the muck of all that evolutionism?

Then we have Cyrus. The Bible says explicitly that Cyrus was God's instrument although he wouldn't even acknowledge God. What more a TE, who does at least acknowledge God and believe in the Crucifixion and Resurrection - why can't s/he be used as an instrument of God?

And then we have a controversial example. Others will surely disagree with me on this:

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' (Matthew 7:21-23 NIV)

Note that Jesus does not deny that they did what they did for Him. This may seem like bad interpretation to you, but I was taught concerning this passage (and see no good reason to doubt) that this shows that even people who are not Christians can do very Christian things. Now, I'm not sure if this extends to someone as "far out" as TEism, doing something "as great" as bringing someone to Christ.

But lastly I would say this: do we really presume to be saving people on the strength of our own philosophies? It is ultimately the Holy Spirit who convicts and brings to belief. If TEism really is as damaging to the soul as you believe it is, then won't the Holy Spirit uproot it from the believer's heart as soon as is needed? None of us have a perfect understanding of Scripture or God or His mysterious ways, and I am sure that we all err in our understanding in one way or another, probably in ways which may never even be revealed until we meet Him face to face. That does not prevent God from using us.

 

[Remus]

But lastly I would say this: do we really presume to be saving people on the strength of our own philosophies? It is ultimately the Holy Spirit who convicts and brings to belief. If TEism really is as damaging to the soul as you believe it is, then won't the Holy Spirit uproot it from the believer's heart as soon as is needed? None of us have a perfect understanding of Scripture or God or His mysterious ways, and I am sure that we all err in our understanding in one way or another, probably in ways which may never even be revealed until we meet Him face to face. That does not prevent God from using us.

I have to agree with Pats and shernren here. There are many people that we as creationists can’t reach. I’ve seen the situation where someone is unable to let evolution go, but was open to the idea of there being a deistic type of god. Who better to witness to someone like this than a TE? Jesus did say “for whoever is not against us is for us”. I believe that this applies to witnessing. Who am I to say that God won’t use TE’s to reach unbelievers with their message? Bottom line, everyone thinks differently. This is why we see so many different denominations. There’s no set of ‘one-size-fits-all’ beliefs. Some are going to accept evolution and some won’t. God has it covered. However, the open C&E forum is ripe with people that could be saved. It would be nice if we could see more witnessing there.

On a side note shernren, Balaam was a follower of God.

 

[vossler]

But lastly I would say this: do we really presume to be saving people on the strength of our own philosophies? It is ultimately the Holy Spirit who convicts and brings to belief. If TEism really is as damaging to the soul as you believe it is, then won't the Holy Spirit uproot it from the believer's heart as soon as is needed? None of us have a perfect understanding of Scripture or God or His mysterious ways, and I am sure that we all err in our understanding in one way or another, probably in ways which may never even be revealed until we meet Him face to face. That does not prevent God from using us.

Just curious; who is the you that you are referring to here? Is it a specific person or YECs in general?

 

[Mallon]

Supposing TEism is a sin (which I don't believe it is), is it not possible for the Lord to use that sin to the benefit of those who love Him? We certainly see this time and again in the Scriptures. If people come to a better love and understanding of God by taking the truth of the Bible as metaphorical rather than literal (since truth can opperate at both levels), then I don't see what the trouble is.

 

[shernren]

YECs in general, especially those "if you believe in evolution you can't be believing in Jesus" folks.

Are you sure, Remus? I was taught that he and "Balaam of Peor" are one and the same. The story as given in Numbers itself (Numbers 22-24) seems to be very ambiguous, to me. Balaam does say things like "I can only say what God puts in my mouth" but that is not necessarily a statement of obedience, it could also have been a statement of powerlessness - "I can't get at them sir, the God of the Universe is on their side!" Search for Balaam of Peor, my understanding is that this Balaam is the same Balaam of Numbers 22-24, and that behind the scenes (not described explicitly in Numbers, but implicitly every time the name "Balaam of Peor" is brought up) Balaam, being paid by Balak, advised Balak to begin a campaign of seduction in order to break God's protection on the people by causing them to sin. I think it is actually described explicitly as such in the NT, and I'll let you know when I find the verse.

 

[Remus]

Sorry for the tangent guys. If it continues, we can split it off to another thread.

Are you sure, Remus?

I believe so. In Num 22:18, Balaam states "I cannot go beyound the word of the LORD my God".

He obviously wasn't a very good follower though

 

[Pats]

I have to agree with Pats and shernren here. There are many people that we as creationists can’t reach. I’ve seen the situation where someone is unable to let evolution go, but was open to the idea of there being a deistic type of god. Who better to witness to someone like this than a TE? Jesus did say “for whoever is not against us is for us”. I believe that this applies to witnessing. Who am I to say that God won’t use TE’s to reach unbelievers with their message? Bottom line, everyone thinks differently. This is why we see so many different denominations. There’s no set of ‘one-size-fits-all’ beliefs. Some are going to accept evolution and some won’t. God has it covered. However, the open C&E forum is ripe with people that could be saved. It would be nice if we could see more witnessing there.

That's basiclly what I was saying. While I don't accept the theology of TE, I also certainly don't see it as herresy.... It seems like there are many denominations who believe the other to be wrong, but several are accomplishing the goal of bringing the lost to Jesus.

It would seem if someone doubts the Bible based on the story of Creation, and we have brothers and sisters in Christ who have a varied theological view point that may clear that up... it doesn't seem like changing the message of Jesus. It seems like pointing out that there are plenty of evolutionists who have recieved Christ and maintain their belief in evolution.

That's how it seems to me.

 

[shernren]

I believe so. In Num 22:18, Balaam states "I cannot go beyound the word of the LORD my God".

He obviously wasn't a very good follower though

Do a computer-aided search for "Balaam" in the Bible, it's pretty interesting. Seems like a lot of what he did was done behind the scenes. Sure, he did make a lot of favourable prophecies about Israel. But then it seems Moses was quite aware of who caused the ruckus in Numbers 25:

Numbers 31: 15 "Have you allowed all the women to live?" he asked them. 16 "They were the ones who followed Balaam's advice and were the means of turning the Israelites away from the LORD in what happened at Peor, so that a plague struck the LORD's people.

(emphasis added) This was after the Israelites' revenge raid on Midian and Moses' last action appearance. Moses is quite clear in his words and to top it off Balaam himself was killed (Num 31:8), something I don't think Moses would have sanctioned if Balaam was a servant of God. And there's Jesus' very own words:

Revelation 2: 14 Nevertheless, I have a few things against you: You have people there who hold to the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to entice the Israelites to sin by eating food sacrificed to idols and by committing sexual immorality.

From this my personal conclusion is that Balaam was not a follower of God. My personal conjecture is that Balaam was a sort of mystic shaman who was very aware of the spiritual realm, both divine and demonic. He could have been polytheistic or even henotheistic (meaning with a pantheon of gods, but one Chief God, much like the Greeks had their main god Zeus plus a supporting cast), and he definitely knew the power of God, but without knowing the holiness that was appropriate, instead consorting at the same time with demons. However when Balaam was brought into conflict with the people of Israel in Balak's hire, he found that God would not let the demons empower him, but would only let him say the things that God wanted him to say. The fact that one of those prophecies was a Messianic prophecy makes this plausible to me: God wanted to show Israel that even a heathen demon-worshipper was subject to His authority and to the authority of the future Messiah (by prophesying of Him). It could be that for the first three oracles, when Balaam sacrificed animals, perhaps he was trying to bribe God into changing His mind. Only when those three offerings had failed did he admit that he could only say what God told him and there was no way to avoid the great destiny for the people of Israel. However, Balaam was aware of spiritual principles and he was being paid well by Balak. Perhaps Balaam gave him a "How to make God angry with His anointed people: 5 simple steps to idolatrous seduction!" brochure between Numbers 24:24 and Numbers 24:25. In any case, Balaam seemed to realize that sin would cut off God's protection over His people and thus he advised Balak to entice them into sin. True enough, the people of Israel fell and God Himself had to "curse" them for their infidelity ... which was exactly what Balaam and Balak had wanted.

I know that I am spinning a lot of this out of my own imagination, but it seems like a plausible scenario to me, a waypoint along God's instruction of His people as He prepared them to enter the Promised Land.

 

[vossler]

I have to agree with Pats and shernren here. There are many people that we as creationists can’t reach. I’ve seen the situation where someone is unable to let evolution go, but was open to the idea of there being a deistic type of god. Who better to witness to someone like this than a TE? Jesus did say “for whoever is not against us is for us”. I believe that this applies to witnessing. Who am I to say that God won’t use TE’s to reach unbelievers with their message? Bottom line, everyone thinks differently. This is why we see so many different denominations. There’s no set of ‘one-size-fits-all’ beliefs. Some are going to accept evolution and some won’t. God has it covered. However, the open C&E forum is ripe with people that could be saved. It would be nice if we could see more witnessing there.

Let me see if I understand you correctly.

As a person who believes in a young earth you would, in an effort to reach a lost person, set aside your beliefs concerning the origins of man and send this person to someone who you felt was telling a lie concerning this matter? This is primarily because this person believes in something that that the individual you've been witnessing to believes in also. Therefore, you believe a connection can be better established.

If any part of that is wrong please correct me because I don't wish to misunderstand this even for a moment.

 

[LoG]

I was just wondering how other creationists view Theistic Evolutionists. (And I'm referring to Christian TEs, not general TEs.)

In posting style and content, they do not appear much different from the secular variety. They are more dangerous then the secular ones though, since they cast doubt on the validity of the scriptures by agreeing with the salvation aspect while undermining its foundations.

Instead of looking to see how the bible is right, the faith in it is only as strong as the next scientific doctrine to blow their way.

Harsh words but that is my opinion.

 

[Remus]

Do a computer-aided search

Do you have any objections to me pulling this off to another thread?

 

[Mallon]

In posting style and content, they do not appear much different from the secular variety.

I've only been here a short while, but long enough for me to know that that's not necessarily true. Especially if you attend the EvC forums.

They are more dangerous then the secular ones though, since they cast doubt on the validity of the scriptures by agreeing with the salvation aspect while undermining its foundations.

Or on the other hand, they might be doing more good than bad by introducing atheists to the idea that you can still believe in Christ as the Saviour without having to deny objective science or logic.
As I said elsewhere, the Bible speaks truth regardless of whether its stories are literal or metaphorical. Our emphasis on the literal is only a modern development (coincident with the age of "enlightenment").

 

[Remus]

Let me see if I understand you correctly.

As a person who believes in a young earth you would, in an effort to reach a lost person, set aside your beliefs concerning the origins of man and send this person to someone who you felt was telling a lie concerning this matter? This is primarily because this person believes in something that that the individual you've been witnessing to believes in also. Therefore, you believe a connection can be better established.

If any part of that is wrong please correct me because I don't wish to misunderstand this even for a moment.

I wouldn't put it so strongly. I'd say something like this:

In an effort to reach a lost person, I would not want to let my personal opinions get in their way. What if I’m wrong? And if I am unable to reach someone, then shouldn't I try to find someone that can? Is it more important for someone to be a creationist or a Christian? I know the next question will be ‘where do we draw the line?’ and frankly, I don’t know where that line should be.

However, I did do this sort of thing once. A while back, there was someone in the open forum that stated that she was open to the idea of a deist type god that used evolution. She was quite clear that her stance on evolution wasn't going to change. I was pulling my hair out over the fact that no TE's stepped up to the plate to say something. I ended up pm'ing a TE that was involved in that thread and pointed out that he should say something. I was thinking that she would listen to him before she would listen to me. I must admit that his response to her was a major disappointment and probably did more harm than good. So, perhaps I was wrong to do so. Maybe I should have done it myself. I don’t know.

 

[Pats]

However, I did do this sort of thing once. A while back, there was someone in the open forum that stated that she was open to the idea of a deist type god that used evolution. She was quite clear that her stance on evolution wasn't going to change. I was pulling my hair out over the fact that no TE's stepped up to the plate to say something. I ended up pm'ing a TE that was involved in that thread and pointed out that he should say something. I was thinking that she would listen to him before she would listen to me. I must admit that his response to her was a major disappointment and probably did more harm than good. So, perhaps I was wrong to do so. Maybe I should have done it myself. I don’t know.

The person I've been talking with takes the Atheist Evolutionary standpoint, in his explination, but believes God is the one who caused lightening to strike primordeol goo wich sparked life into existance and started evolution. He has been studying the Bible for years, and one of his BIG reasons for not accepting it as a valid document is the story of creation.

I, like Remus, wonder.... how important to the plan of salvation is being a Creationist over being a TE?

I mean, I'd be happy to look more into their theology and impartially present it to him as another possible way to interprate the scriptures... I feel compelled to do this, but I'm not sure if I'm being led to do it or not, wich is why I'm seeking the thoughts of others. I don't know. Maybe I'm pulling this poor thread off topic too?

 

[vossler]

In an effort to reach a lost person, I would not want to let my personal opinions get in their way. What if I’m wrong? And if I am unable to reach someone, then shouldn't I try to find someone that can? Is it more important for someone to be a creationist or a Christian? I know the next question will be ‘where do we draw the line?’ and frankly, I don’t know where that line should be.

If I felt it was my personal opinion that the earth and everything in it was created in six days then I too would agree and not wish to thrust that upon someone else. However, I don't see it that way, it is clearly the Word of God. So the question isn't whether I'm a creationist or a Christian, it's whether or I believe what the Word of God is saying.

I don't believe it is our job to determine where the line is. Our job is to preach the Word. If the Word says God created everything in six days, then that's what you preach and leave the rest to the Holy Spirit.

However, I did do this sort of thing once. A while back, there was someone in the open forum that stated that she was open to the idea of a deist type god that used evolution. She was quite clear that her stance on evolution wasn't going to change. I was pulling my hair out over the fact that no TE's stepped up to the plate to say something. I ended up pm'ing a TE that was involved in that thread and pointed out that he should say something. I was thinking that she would listen to him before she would listen to me. I must admit that his response to her was a major disappointment and probably did more harm than good. So, perhaps I was wrong to do so. Maybe I should have done it myself. I don’t know.

Chances are you should have done it yourself, I don't know of too many instances where God wants you to hand someone off that He has put on your heart. Usually when that happens, it's a result of us thinking too much.

 

[vossler]

I, like Remus, wonder.... how important to the plan of salvation is being a Creationist over being a TE?

Call me simple-minded, but I don't see this as a Creationist vs. TE issue. I see solely as a Word of God issue.

I mean, I'd be happy to look more into their theology and impartially present it to him as another possible way to interprate the scriptures... I feel compelled to do this, but I'm not sure if I'm being led to do it or not, wich is why I'm seeking the thoughts of others. I don't know. Maybe I'm pulling this poor thread off topic too?

This thread is going a bit off topic, but I think the points we're bringing up are excellent and need to be addressed. If the OP wishes for us to take this to another thread then I think we should, otherwise let's continue.