How Do You View Islam?

[deu58]

Hi Curt

The seed of Ismael are doing exactly as God has written that they would, and will continue doing it until God says thats it. We need to get as many of them saved as we can in the meantime.

This is something I have wondered about for many years. God could have just let Hagar and Ishmael perish in the wilderness but he preserved him knowing full well what was going to be the nature of his descendants.

Obviously this is part of Gods plan but I must admit I really do not understand it.

yours in Christ
deu58

 

[christianbeginning]

The question remains. Can the West peacefully coexist with an Islam continues to redefine itself along such lines?

Since its inception, Islam has been unable to peacefully coexist with the West and its other nations, no? The relative peace that the West has had wrt Islam has been that the West has been both economically and militarily stronger - and thus safe.

But for there to be peaceful coexistance, something must change...

This seems to apply to all regions bordering the Islamic world.

 

[Curt]

Hi Curt




This is something I have wondered about for many years. God could have just let Hagar and Ishmael perish in the wilderness but he preserved him knowing full well what was going to be the nature of his descendants.

Obviously this is part of Gods plan but I must admit I really do not understand it.

yours in Christ
deu58

The only way to understand most of the things that God has done in the way of evil, and allowing evil is to understand predestination as being the result of God's foreknowledge of all the freewill choices we will all make. All bad, and evil in this world are the results of men ignoring the principles of God, His character, and His desires for all men to worship Him because of His love for them, and their falling in love with Him, which will result in us obeying Him at all times. Looking at it in this light, Ismael found no place in his heart to accept God's decision to bring forth the redeemer of all mankind through Sarah's womb because He had already proclaimed that fact, and determined of his own accord, and probably with his mothers encouragement to be that redeemer because he was the first born. There are always, and ever only two choices for us. We will either serve satan or Jesus. Isaac chose Jesus, Ismael chose himself, which is satans deception. It was totaly his choice.

 

[PaladinValer]

You're the one saying "perhaps" and I'm the one Appealing to Ignorance?

It was a colloquialism.

Then where are the Fatwas being issued by the majority of Islamic clerics against these people?

Do a little research on Islamic beliefs from a Muslim or a scholarly source and you'll understand why. To be honest, its very complex and at 9:54pm, I don't have the time nor energy to write a prohervial 12-page paper.

No, that is what the evidence says. When was the last time a radical Christian group taped the beheading of an enemy and posted it on a website for the world to see?

You've got Christians against Christians or aggressive Christians in multiple corners of the world. They have committed horrible atrocities (former Yugoslavia anyone?) and they still do (Sudan's Christians are just as bloodthirsty as the Muslims and the Animists living there, whether we like that fact or not). If you wish to ignore those, be my guess, but although reality is sadder, it beats convincing myself of a lie.

When Paul Hill murdered the abortion doctor Christians countrywide spoke out loudly against Hill's actions.

So have moderate Muslims; the problem is, no one reports it and when it is, it isn't front-page news. And mind you this: many Christians applauded Paul Hill for his actions from a wide range of denominations. Shall we ignore that fact too?

When Muslims behead civilians or string their burned and mutilated bodies up on bridges or crash commercial airliners into skyscrapers there is dancing in the streets.

Or how about mass graves in the former Yugoslavia? How about the bodycount in Sudan? Northern Ireland? Different means of killing, but just as effective and just as sad.

There is no moral equivalence between these two religions.

Haven't read the whole Qur'an in a proper, orthodox Muslim context I see.

So? That doesn't apply today.

Oh, so you think it would be better to still be in the dark ages? The Church monastaries held some of the "missing knowledge," but most of it came from Islamic nations.

What?

Two different nations are at war; one is predominately Christian and one is predominately Muslim. Does this automatically make it a religious war? No.

Where did I speak out against Arabs?

You missed the point. If you saw an Arab walking down the street, does that make him a bloodthirsty murderer?

They have proven by their actions, and more importantly by their inactions, that they are complicit.

Inaction? Oh yes; because the news doesn't report it, it doesn't happen! [/sarcasm]

Unless you get the signatures of most Muslims that approved the attack, you've got no argument.

Yes but some of the posts here are calling for the complete eradication of an entire group of people. Kind of a kill them all and let God sort them out attitude.

If we adopt that kind of attitude then what makes us any different from the radical Muslims who are calling for the same thing?

As I posted earlier I work around some muslims and know many of them are saddened and concerned about what is being done in the name of their religion.

So should we kill the innocent with the guilty? Fighting fire with fire is one thing but fighting ignorance with ignorance is another.

yours in Christ
DEU58

God bless you you!

Certainly the Taliban has not been the only face that Islam has ever historically shown us.

Um, no offense, but we have pretty good histories of Islam and Muslim emptires, nations, and kingdoms since Islam began in 622 ce. What histories are we missing?

The militant Muslims have no problems with killing non-militant muslims either so the voice of reason and sensibility is gradually being silenced in the Muslim world through fear and intimidation.

A fact well testified in history. I might be wrong, but didn't innocent Muslim folks die because they were in the TTs?

Since its inception, Islam has been unable to peacefully coexist with the West and its other nations, no?

Our Crusades against them didn't help much you know. Lets not forget our faults in the matter. Yes, they took Constantinople first, but as I keep saying, just because war exists between two countries that so happen to be of two different religions doesn't make the war a religious one.

 

[SolomonVII]

Since its inception, Islam has been unable to peacefully coexist with the West and its other nations, no? The relative peace that the West has had wrt Islam has been that the West has been both economically and militarily stronger - and thus safe.

But for there to be peaceful coexistance, something must change...

This seems to apply to all regions bordering the Islamic world.

The world peace that traditional Islam proscribes for the world will happen when the entire world submits to Islam. Personally, this peace does not interest me much.

You are correct that it is the economic and military strength of the west in relation to the waning Ottoman Empire that has ensured that the relations with Islam have been relatively peaceful for the past few centuries.

Unlike the many appeasing liberal voices heard so often, strength and a confidence in the superiority of the western system are adequate responses to the current policy of islamic militant terrorism. For example, the fact that Israel's firm response to the latest intifada against them are finally bearing fruits have virtually gone unreported, but the steady stream of suicide bombers so evident in the first years of the intifada have been slowed to a trickle. Firm resolve is the proving to be the best weapon against such intimidation. Moderate Moslems should take note.

Unlike so many current westerners and Christians, I see the current trend of a steady stream of apologies on behalf of us without reciprocity on behalf of the Islamic world as not just futile, but recklessly foolish. The anti-clerical stance of so many of our historians and the subsequent negative interpretations of the Crusades have only been met with a chorus of Moslem voices quick to condemn, but blind to their own crusading vices of the past.

There can be no doubt that militant Islam's declaration or war on America by the Iranian ayatollahs of the late 1970's must be met with an equal determination on behalf of America and the West. There is no shame in being hated by the likes of the Sudanese government and the Taliban and Hamas and Hezbollah.

If moderate Islam continues to believe that the fault lies not with the terrorists, but with the West, then so be it. For myself though, I am of the personal belief that Christ has been leading His Church for the past 2000 years and we shall prevail against any who choose to be the enemies of the Christ and the Cross. I strongly believe in the Christian way, and the fruits of freedom and democracy that have blossomed out of Christendom.

I am agreeing with you, I presume?

 

[SolomonVII]

Hello Solomon


It is a serious problem and there is no doubt that we need to be watchful and take action against these militant groups.

In 1998 I was in Dubai and the big news was that Saudi Arabia had just executed by beheading 8 filipino contract workers for holding bible studies.

The militant Muslims have no problems with killing non-militant muslims either so the voice of reason and sensibility is gradually being silenced in the Muslim world through fear and intimidation.

yours in Christ
deu58

Such actions by the Saudi government have only served to justify the current rash of beheadings being carried out by Islamic terrorists.
America has often been criticised for its support of the corrupt Saudi government, but when the choice is between Wahhabi beheadings and floggings, and an opposition of El Quada and the Taliban, the situation becomes a dilemna.
Becoming a Moslem is like the Hotel California. You can check in any time you like, but you can never leave. Even when discrepancies in the Islamic belief system become apparent, a Moslem risks his life just in the very act of deciding he can no longer believe.
Intimidation has proved to be an effective weapon for maintianing Islamic solidarity. It should come as no surprise that the most militant have chosen to use such a weapon against the West as well.

 

[thaiv]

Islam is just another religion trying to worship God without the enjoyment and reality of the Person of Christ.

 

[ksen]

Hello Ksen


Yes but some of the posts here are calling for the complete eradication of an entire group of people. Kind of a kill them all and let God sort them out attitude.

I certainly haven't called for the indiscriminate killing of Muslims. I believe that the system should be done away with. It's sort of like the Communist Party in Russia. It was outlawed, there were not calls for the mass killing of old Communist Party members.

The ones carrying out the terrorist acts have shown that they, like rabid dogs, need to be put down for everyone's safety.

Unfortunately I believe that it is the Islamic system that is the problem, not what people are calling the "fringe extremists."

If we adopt that kind of attitude then what makes us any different from the radical Muslims who are calling for the same thing?

We shouldn't adopt a "kill 'em all let God sort 'em out" attitude.

As I posted earlier I work around some muslims and know many of them are saddened and concerned about what is being done in the name of their religion.

And I would submit that those people you know are the true minority of Islam.

If the majority of Muslims feel the same way as the people you know then it is getting high time for them to start policing their own before someone else has to step in and do it for them. The world is only going to tolerate for so long the vicious behavior on display lately.

So should we kill the innocent with the guilty? Fighting fire with fire is one thing but fighting ignorance with ignorance is another.

Where have I called for the killing of innocents?

 

[ksen]

The militant Muslims have no problems with killing non-militant muslims either so the voice of reason and sensibility is gradually being silenced in the Muslim world through fear and intimidation.

yours in Christ
deu58

Then they will reap what they have sown.

 

[ksen]

Do a little research on Islamic beliefs from a Muslim or a scholarly source and you'll understand why. To be honest, its very complex and at 9:54pm, I don't have the time nor energy to write a prohervial 12-page paper.

Would you mind providing a link? However, since the Koran advocates lying and deception when dealing with non-Muslims I would take anything from them with a grain of salt.

You've got Christians against Christians or aggressive Christians in multiple corners of the world. They have committed horrible atrocities (former Yugoslavia anyone?) and they still do (Sudan's Christians are just as bloodthirsty as the Muslims and the Animists living there, whether we like that fact or not). If you wish to ignore those, be my guess, but although reality is sadder, it beats convincing myself of a lie.

Sources?

So have moderate Muslims; the problem is, no one reports it and when it is, it isn't front-page news.

There are approximately 1 billion Muslims. You claim that only a fringe few are the problem. If that's really the case then a vast majority should be standing with us against those who are hijacking their religion.

So let's say there are 900 million Muslims opposed to radical Islam. Are you telling me that if 900 million Muslims condemned the current activities of the terrorists we wouldn't hear about it?

And BTW, that would still leave a 100 million person problem on our hands that has to be dealt with.

And mind you this: many Christians applauded Paul Hill for his actions from a wide range of denominations. Shall we ignore that fact too?

Those Christians are also condemned by their fellow Christians and also by the book they claim to follow. The Islamic terrorists are not condemned in any meaningful way by their fellow believers and are definitely not condemned by the book they follow.

Or how about mass graves in the former Yugoslavia? How about the bodycount in Sudan? Northern Ireland? Different means of killing, but just as effective and just as sad.

Which mass graves? The ones created by the Muslim population of Yugoslavia/Kosovo?

What about Northern Ireland? I don't think you'd find too many Christians that approve of what's happening there.

What about Sudan? Isn't the Christian population allowed to defend itself?

Haven't read the whole Qur'an in a proper, orthodox Muslim context I see.

Please let me know what context it should be read in. The context that discounts all the passages calling for the indiscriminate killing and subjegation of non-Muslims?

Oh, so you think it would be better to still be in the dark ages? The Church monastaries held some of the "missing knowledge," but most of it came from Islamic nations.

How did you get any of that from what I said?

 

[christianbeginning]

...just because war exists between two countries that so happen to be of two different religions doesn't make the war a religious one.

sure there were other reasons like lust for power, land, money, slaves and a desire for cultural and political domination that motivated Islam to field armies against the West every spring - continuosly - for 8 or so centuries, but the religious aspect was very strong also.

The Crusades were a direct response to the aggressions of Islam against formerly Christian lands.

 

[Ave Maria]

I'd have to say 2b but let me extrapolate on that. I believe that Islam is a false religion and is from the Devil. I know that many sincere people believe in it and I know that most who follow Islam are peaceful people. I honestly love these people and hope to see them saved. However, the Islamic Extremists or terrorists are evil in my eyes. Satan clearly has a strong hold on the Islamic terrorists.

 

[ksen]

I know that many sincere people believe in it and I know that most who follow Islam are peaceful people.

How do you know that?

I honestly love these people and hope to see them saved.

I too hope God eventually saves them.

 

[deu58]

Hello Ksen

Where have I called for the killing of innocents?

These are you words aren't they? Am I misinterpreting you ?

And in light of the recent events surrounding 9-11/Danny Perl/Nick Berg/and Paul Johnson I believe it is a scourge that must be gotten rid of for our own safety.

Have you noticed the little problem we are having in Iraq lately? Do you really think we are prepared to take on the entire Muslim world? Do you know that the staging areas for the Iraqi invasion/occupation are in Muslim countries who are our allies and risked the the chance of the supposed weapons of mass destruction being unleashed on their own people to help us?

As to Kosovo/Bosnia are you sure you have your facts straight on who was committing genocide against who?

Posted by NormsRevenge
On 04/30/2004 9:38:59 AM PDT with 19 comments

Yahoo! News ^ | 4/30/04 | Samir Krilic - AP
SARAJEVO, Bosnia-Herzegovina - Bosnian Serb authorities offered details of six previously undisclosed mass graves in the town of Srebrenica on Friday, their first step in cooperating with a commission investigating the worst civilian massacre in Europe since World War II. Bosnian Serb military and police officials submitted details of the graves to the chairman of the commission studying the massacre of up to 8,000 Muslim men and boys in 1995. The Muslims were massacred when Serbs overran the eastern Bosnian enclave during the 3 1/2-year war in the former Yugoslav province. "The mass graves are located in the wider Srebrenica...


| SOUTHEAST EUROPE AND BALKANS | BOSNIA AND HERZEGOVINA

Bosnian Serbs Admit For The First Time Srebrenica Massacre

11 June 2004 | 19:12 | AFP

Bosnian Serbs admitted for the first time on Friday that their forces had killed several thousand Muslims in the 1995 Srebrenica massacre, saying that the perpetrators had tried to cover up the worst atrocity in Europe since World War II. A report by a Bosnian Serb government commission said that it has "established that during the 10-19 July 1995 period several thousand Bosniaks (Muslims) were liquidated in a way which represents grave violations of international humanitarian law."

"The perpetrators undertook measures to cover up the crime by moving the bodies," from the place where the victims were killed to other locations, said the report, a copy of which was obtained by AFP.


Yours in Christ
deu58

 

[ksen]

These are you words aren't they?

Yes.

Am I misinterpreting you ?

Yes.

Have you noticed the little problem we are having in Iraq lately? Do you really think we are prepared to take on the entire Muslim world?

We should be prepared, because whether we want to admit it or not the Muslim world is already against us.

Do you know that the staging areas for the Iraqi invasion/occupation are in Muslim countries who are our allies and risked the the chance of the supposed weapons of mass destruction being unleashed on their own people to help us?

Good.

As to Kosovo/Bosnia are you sure you have your facts straight on who was committing genocide against who?

Posted by NormsRevenge
On 04/30/2004 9:38:59 AM PDT with 19 comments

Yahoo! News ^ | 4/30/04 | Samir Krilic - AP
SARAJEVO, Bosnia-Herzegovina - Bosnian Serb authorities offered details of six previously undisclosed mass graves in the town of Srebrenica on Friday, their first step in cooperating with a commission investigating the worst civilian massacre in Europe since World War II. Bosnian Serb military and police officials submitted details of the graves to the chairman of the commission studying the massacre of up to 8,000 Muslim men and boys in 1995. The Muslims were massacred when Serbs overran the eastern Bosnian enclave during the 3 1/2-year war in the former Yugoslav province. "The mass graves are located in the wider Srebrenica...


| SOUTHEAST EUROPE AND BALKANS | BOSNIA AND HERZEGOVINA

Bosnian Serbs Admit For The First Time Srebrenica Massacre

11 June 2004 | 19:12 | AFP

Bosnian Serbs admitted for the first time on Friday that their forces had killed several thousand Muslims in the 1995 Srebrenica massacre, saying that the perpetrators had tried to cover up the worst atrocity in Europe since World War II. A report by a Bosnian Serb government commission said that it has "established that during the 10-19 July 1995 period several thousand Bosniaks (Muslims) were liquidated in a way which represents grave violations of international humanitarian law."

"The perpetrators undertook measures to cover up the crime by moving the bodies," from the place where the victims were killed to other locations, said the report, a copy of which was obtained by AFP.


Yours in Christ
deu58

I'll answer those in a bit.

 

[PaladinValer]

I certainly haven't called for the indiscriminate killing of Muslims.

You said, and I quoth:

"I believe it is a scourge that must be gotten rid of for our own safety."

That implies removal by any means necessary.

I believe that the system should be done away with. It's sort of like the Communist Party in Russia.

Only a person ignorant of orthodox Muslim doctrines and interpretations would say that.

It was outlawed, there were not calls for the mass killing of old Communist Party members.

Funny; the US tried to outlaw Communism with McCarthyism. And McCarthy and his little bigoted and hatemonger devotees of fools didn't care about the every day person; if the person was a Communist, they were practically devils and demons on Earth; Godless fools (which was incorrect then and it still is today) who need to be just like us.

Sorry, but I have no sympathy for your opinions when you advocate extermination, bigotry, and misinformation.

The ones carrying out the terrorist acts have shown that they, like rabid dogs, need to be put down for everyone's safety.

Who is "they?" Oh yes...the same way McCarthy pointed to all Communists? Or perhaps how Milosovich pointed to all Muslims?

Unfortunately I believe that it is the Islamic system that is the problem, not what people are calling the "fringe extremists."

Because 1) you have no clue about any detailed beliefs and doctrines of orthodox Islam 2) you don't seem to have any knowledge of detailed history of Islam 3) you equate all wars in which Muslims participate as religious wars (illogical).

And I would submit that those people you know are the true minority of Islam.

No, they are the majority. Give numbers or quit passing on misinformation.

If the majority of Muslims feel the same way as the people you know then it is getting high time for them to start policing their own before someone else has to step in and do it for them. The world is only going to tolerate for so long the vicious behavior on display lately.

Oh and we Christians have done perfectly in this sense? And the world has recognized the truth that minority doesn't equate to the whole. That's a fact, not an opinion.

Again, Appealing to Ignorance.

Where have I called for the killing of innocents?

Read my quotation of you.

Would you mind providing a link? However, since the Koran advocates lying and deception when dealing with non-Muslims I would take anything from them with a grain of salt.

Taken beautifully out of context. During the time in which the Qur'an was "revealed" to Muhammad, they were being fenced in and horribly persecuted by the local Pagans, Christians, Jews, and other religionists (not always for religious reasons, but it did factor in). The Muslims and the others often signed peace accords in other to reduce strife and conflict. Unfortunately, it was the non-Muslims that repeatedly threw them in the trash.

Now would you trust people like that? That forsake an agreement for their own personal goals? Of course not! You'd learn to think on your feat and be weary of deception. The Muslims stuck back only when the persecution or the betrayal meant the possibility of they and their families being slaughtered or robbed.

So does it actually say to lie and deceive anyone? Nope; it means to be weary of trickery by those who are known to lie themselves. Don't give all the information; give only what is needed when dealing with such people. You forget Muhammad was a trader and dealt with other merchants all his life; some were honest, others were devious.

Sources?

Your local newspaper or city's newspaper archive will do nicely.

Those Christians are also condemned by their fellow Christians and also by the book they claim to follow.

Oh how I wish this was 100% all the time.

The Islamic terrorists are not condemned in any meaningful way by their fellow believers and are definitely not condemned by the book they follow.

1. Appealing to Ignorance
2. Last I knew, the Saudi government has had a bounty on bin Laden's head for quite some years now. You do realize that, before he started messing around with the "West," he got in trouble with the Saudis first? Go read a biography on him for proof.

Which mass graves? The ones created by the Muslim population of Yugoslavia/Kosovo?

What about Northern Ireland? I don't think you'd find too many Christians that approve of what's happening there.

What about Sudan? Isn't the Christian population allowed to defend itself?

1. Wishful thinking. Oh of course we cannot be at fault! We are innocent always! We cannot ever do wrong! [/sarcasm]. Face the sad facts; Christians did it and both God and humanity know it. And Milosovich will be punished for his crimes against humanity while here on Earth and by God in the life to come.
2. The locals and their sympathizers would disagree.
3. And when the Animists and the Christians are the aggressors, are not the Muslim population allowed to defend itself?

Please let me know what context it should be read in. The context that discounts all the passages calling for the indiscriminate killing and subjegation of non-Muslims?

Why don't you ask one of the Muslim posters that one. Although I did give the seeds earlier in this post, I'm sure you are able to figure it out.

How did you get any of that from what I said?

Two words: quite easily

sure there were other reasons like lust for power, land, money, slaves and a desire for cultural and political domination that motivated Islam to field armies against the West every spring - continuosly - for 8 or so centuries, but the religious aspect was very strong also.

As a historian, I know better than this.

The Crusades were a direct response to the aggressions of Islam against formerly Christian lands.

Wishful thinking but absolutely false.

 

[NewToLife]

The Crusades were a direct response to the aggressions of Islam against formerly Christian lands.

Although I believe that this is in some part true I would point out that it is hardly the case that only muslims and Jews suffered under the crusades, many orthodox christians were also indiscriminately butchered.

There's little point in trying to pretend that the crusades were other than they were, they are not a part of history of which western christianity ought to be proud.

 

[PaladinValer]

I would point out that it is hardly the case that only muslims and Jews suffered under the crusades, many orthodox christians were also indiscriminately butchered.

There's little point in trying to pretend that the crusades were other than they were, they are not a part of history of which western christianity ought to be proud.

Excellent point, and it isn't something I am proud of.

 

[ksen]

You said, and I quoth:

"I believe it is a scourge that must be gotten rid of for our own safety."

That implies removal by any means necessary.

Of the system, not the people.

Only a person ignorant of orthodox Muslim doctrines and interpretations would say that.

And only an ignorant person would say I was equating Communist beliefs with Islamic beliefs.

Funny; the US tried to outlaw Communism with McCarthyism. And McCarthy and his little bigoted and hatemonger devotees of fools didn't care about the every day person; if the person was a Communist, they were practically devils and demons on Earth; Godless fools (which was incorrect then and it still is today) who need to be just like us.

Yeah, you're right, we shouldn't have tried to root out those who were pushing a system responsible for the deaths of tens of millions of people in the Soviet Union.

Sorry, but I have no sympathy for your opinions when you advocate extermination, bigotry, and misinformation.

Get off it. You have misinterpreted my remarks and then have refused correction when you were offered it.

Who is "they?" Oh yes...the same way McCarthy pointed to all Communists? Or perhaps how Milosovich pointed to all Muslims?

Because 1) you have no clue about any detailed beliefs and doctrines of orthodox Islam 2) you don't seem to have any knowledge of detailed history of Islam 3) you equate all wars in which Muslims participate as religious wars (illogical).



No, they are the majority. Give numbers or quit passing on misinformation.



Oh and we Christians have done perfectly in this sense? And the world has recognized the truth that minority doesn't equate to the whole. That's a fact, not an opinion.

Again, Appealing to Ignorance.



Read my quotation of you.



Taken beautifully out of context. During the time in which the Qur'an was "revealed" to Muhammad, they were being fenced in and horribly persecuted by the local Pagans, Christians, Jews, and other religionists (not always for religious reasons, but it did factor in). The Muslims and the others often signed peace accords in other to reduce strife and conflict. Unfortunately, it was the non-Muslims that repeatedly threw them in the trash.

Now would you trust people like that? That forsake an agreement for their own personal goals? Of course not! You'd learn to think on your feat and be weary of deception. The Muslims stuck back only when the persecution or the betrayal meant the possibility of they and their families being slaughtered or robbed.

So does it actually say to lie and deceive anyone? Nope; it means to be weary of trickery by those who are known to lie themselves. Don't give all the information; give only what is needed when dealing with such people. You forget Muhammad was a trader and dealt with other merchants all his life; some were honest, others were devious.



Your local newspaper or city's newspaper archive will do nicely.



Oh how I wish this was 100% all the time.



1. Appealing to Ignorance

If you have such love and admiration for the Islamic faith and such disdain for Christianity why don't you convert?

2. Last I knew, the Saudi government has had a bounty on bin Laden's head for quite some years now. You do realize that, before he started messing around with the "West," he got in trouble with the Saudis first? Go read a biography on him for proof.

If you think Saudi opposition to Wahhabism is anything more than a sham you have to get your head out of the sand.

3. And when the Animists and the Christians are the aggressors, are not the Muslim population allowed to defend itself?

And when were the Sudanese Christians the aggressors against the innocent Muslim Sudanese?

 

[SolomonVII]

If you think Saudi opposition to Wahhabism is anything more than a sham you have to get your head out of the sand.

Just a small correction. The Saudis are not opposed to Wahhabism. The Saudis are Wahhabis. Bin Laden and his ilk are just much more violently zealous about Wahhabism that even the current Saudi regime, if such a thing is even possible.

The Saudi government made a deal with a deal with these fanatics after the terrorist's seized the Holy Mosque back in 1979. In effect, the Saudi government paid them off in exchange for an agreement to limit their attacks to outside of Saudi Arabia.
The recent wave of attacks against Saudi Arabia amply show the futility of trying to appease the terrorists of militant Islam.