How do you view God?

[Reformationist]

I'm just curious how others view God.

If applicable, post Scripture to support your belief.

God bless,
Don

 

[Drotar]

I don't know if I can answer.

I guess I WOULD go for number one, but to be pain-in-the-neck politically correct, I would say that it's not about STOPPING things from happening. He has the power to stop something from happening, but everything that happens He doesn't just prevent from otherwise being, He CAUSES.

As for "whatever might" come to pass, I don't think anything really WOULD come to pass. All Creation is held together and sustained by His hand. I don't think He interferes when He sees something He doesn't like, I think He directly CAUSES whatever He pleases to happen.

To answer your question- yes.

I don't mean to be a party-pooper. I just (and I'm sure you're the same way- most philosophical Reformed Christians are) catch myself daydreaming about the different paths that destiny might unravel in. I think about cause-effect relationships way TOO much. Usually I'll say, well if this didn't happen then THIS would have occured. I just think about fate and destiny too much. I have to STOP myself whenever I start pondering what might or could have been, because I tell myself that NOTHING COULD HAVE BEEN otherwise. What happened was the only way it could have happened because it was the only way it was ordained and was meant to be. Now that I'm done rambling incoherently and making a fool of myself, I'll just end with a TTYL Jesus loves you!

 

[Lotar]

I chose 1 and 3.
Though I believe He has the power, I don't believe He always chooses to use it.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

There was not the option: "He can do and know anything... but chooses not to...."

 

[Knight]

I voted for #1 and #3. This seems to line up closest with what I understand about God's character.

 

[Reformationist]

Thanks everyone for your participation.

Just for the record, I'm not asking if God does use this power. I'm just asking if you think He has it.

But, now that that has been addressed I'm curious why God, knowing every single chain of events and having the power and authority to choose the one that most glorifies Himself, would choose anything other than the one that most glorifies Himself.

It seems as if a couple of you are implying that though God may see that a particular path may glorify Him more than another He chooses a path less glorifying to Himself for some reason.

If that is what you think, pray tell, what reason could God have for sovereignly choosing a path that is not the most glorifying to Himself?

Do you think God desires to glorify someone/something else more than He desires to glorify Himself?

God bless

 

[Knight]

God's ultimate glory will be when Christ returns.

Remember, we only see part of the picture. God sees it all and He knows how it's going to be painted.

 

[ZiSunka]

God can and does forsee every event, it is in His power to steer events His way, sometimes He does that, but largely, He doesn't interfere with freewill.

 

[Drotar]

I don't think that three is true. Quite simply. I guess I differ from Knight and other Calvinists here, because the way I see it, nothing COULD happen unless God Himself causes it. It's not about Him foreseeing what would otherwise happen, it's that nothing WOULD otherwise happen unless He holds the world in His hands.

What happens today is the ONLY WAY IT COULD have happened, as I see it. It's the only way God ordained it, and since that is so, I'll ask no questions and expect no replies. I'll accept what is and what will be. Call it blind faith, but I know that it's not about God having the power to stop something, it's that any courses of history require God's movement, inspiration, and sovereignty in the first place. And since He has chosen to act in one plan of history, that is the only possibility. TTYL Jesus loves you!

 

[Rick Otto]

Glory is in the eye of the beholder.
Whose view counts?

 

[Reformationist]

I don't think that three is true. Quite simply. I guess I differ from Knight and other Calvinists here, because the way I see it, nothing COULD happen unless God Himself causes it. It's not about Him foreseeing what would otherwise happen, it's that nothing WOULD otherwise happen unless He holds the world in His hands.

Drotar, I don't think anyone is arguing that. All Calvinists, that I'm aware of, believe that whatsoever comes to pass does so because of the sovereign Will of God and that His choice wasn't arbitrary. He chose that path for a specific reason, namely His glory, and thus He wouldn't have chosen another path. I think you're reading too far into it. Just because God did choose for things to happen a certain way does not mean that He had not the power to cause them to go another way. I'm just asking if 1) He has the power to bring to pass whatsoever He determines, and 2) He knows what would happen in every single direction that He chose, no matter what direction that is.

What happens today is the ONLY WAY IT COULD have happened, as I see it. It's the only way God ordained it, and since that is so, I'll ask no questions and expect no replies. I'll accept what is and what will be.

Again, this IS the Calvinist position on the Plan of God. Don't read so far into my poll bro.

Call it blind faith, but I know that it's not about God having the power to stop something, it's that any courses of history require God's movement, inspiration, and sovereignty in the first place. And since He has chosen to act in one plan of history, that is the only possibility. TTYL Jesus loves you!

Yes, the Plan that God has ordained IS the only possibility because God ordained that it would be that way. However, could God have chosen to do things differently?

God bless

 

[Reformationist]

Glory is in the eye of the beholder.
Whose view counts?

All of our views count.

Do you mean to whom does our view count?

Well, to me for one.

God bless

 

[Serapha]

I don't think that I could vote for any of the above.


First, there is the perfect will of God which is based upon His omniscience. He knows what is best for us and that would be a part of His perfect will. But there is also the permissive will of God. God allows circumstances to occur.

Because there is both the permissive and perfect will of God, I have have to select none of the above.


~malaka~

 

[Reformationist]

I don't think that I could vote for any of the above.


First, there is the perfect will of God which is based upon His omniscience. He knows what is best for us and that would be a part of His perfect will. But there is also the permissive will of God. God allows circumstances to occur.

Because there is both the permissive and perfect will of God, I have have to select none of the above.


~malaka~

I certainly agree that we can distinguish between the two but it would be unwise to separate or pit the two against each other.

It is incongruous to say that God "allows" something that He does not desire, at least in some sense, to happen. If you believe that God is powerful enough to stop anything from happening and also that, despite that power, some things He does not stop then the only rational thing to conclude is that God sees a perfect purpose for allowing it in His eternal Plan. God does not make His Plan up as we go so we must conclude that God desires something to happen which He makes no provision to avoid.

It's like this. If I, as a parent, can see the value in letting my child learn something by a process of failures that I could have prevented then I do desire that they fail in some sense, if only to more strongly understand their successes.

Of course I'm not God but hopefully you can see the inherent danger in separating the permissive Will of God and the perfect/decreed will of God.

God bless

 

[Serapha]

Of course I'm not God but hopefully you can see the inherent danger in separating the permissive Will of God and the perfect/decreed will of God.

God bless

We disagree, and unless you can biblically prove what you stated, we will continue to disagree.

David committed adultery that was outside the perfect will of God as the act of adultery is a sin; yet, it was within the permissive will of God to allow the act of adultery to happen.

Eve ate from the forbidden tree. That was outside the perfect will of God, an act of disobedience to His command; yet, by His permissive will, God allowed sin to enter the world.


Sin is never within the perfect will of God, but remains within the permissive will of God every time.

As I said, we disagree.


~malaka~

 

[Reformationist]

We disagree, and unless you can biblically prove what you stated, we will continue to disagree.

David committed adultery that was outside the perfect will of God as the act of adultery is a sin; yet, it was within the permissive will of God to allow the act of adultery to happen.

Eve ate from the forbidden tree. That was outside the perfect will of God, an act of disobedience to His command; yet, by His permissive will, God allowed sin to enter the world.


Sin is never within the perfect will of God, but remains within the permissive will of God every time.

As I said, we disagree.


~malaka~

You post as if you think I'll have a problem with us disagreeing? In case you're wondering, I don't. It's okay if we disagree. Neither of us can "biblically prove" our position so it would be fruitless to try to do so.

 

[HisJavajunkie]

God's omniscience is all powerfull with all glory therfore giving Him the perfect timing of events.

 

[HisJavajunkie]

Reformationist: I know this is kinda off topic but it will really help me. How do you cut and paste all those messages. Please HELP.
Your Bro,
Darrel
aka Javajunkie

 

[Rick Otto]

What I was aiming at bro, was in terms of sovereign values,
God's perspective & judgement will always be perfect even when ours is telling us otherwise.
So I agree with your answers completely and applaud you for your facility with both the word & this medium.
Rock on, Ref. I call this good surfin' dude!

 

[Rick Otto]

Yo Ref,
I think I can resonate w/Malaka on this, even tho I think the expression "two wills" is a bit awkward & can be misleading for many.
What I mean is, that I agree w/Malaka, as I'm sure you do, that God is not "the author" of sin. Sin being the fruition of lusts arising from the hearts of men.
And as much as I'm prejudiced against the word "Permissive" because of its currently popular implications, it does describe the witholding of grace which can be viewd as judgement.
Our sin is in this sense, judgement.
Want to avoid judgement? Avoid sin.
As a story problem I think I got the math right on that.
My irrational bias against the word "Perfect" in conjunction with "will" is that it evokes memories of prudish women grade school teachers, fussiness & nitpicking. I know, it sounds kinda silly.
But the word "perfect" sounded perfect as an adjective for timimg, like Java posted.
I think God's timing is a great side topic that bears on grace & judgement in both personal, family, tribal. & national experience.
That little person on your lap looks like he finally met someone he can relax around.