How do you support OSAS in light of Heb 6:4 without being Calvinist?

[MagusAlbertus]

How do you support OSAS in light of Hebrews 6:4-6 without being Calvinist?

title says it all, scripture is:

”4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. “


Without saying "eh, they weren’t saved to begin with, because God pre-destined it"

 

[Danfrey]

I am a little confused. I thought that Calvinism was a big part of the Baptist faith. The longer I keep hearing about Baptists that are not Calvinist. Other than Free Will Baptists, are there man Baptists who are not Calvinist?

 

[MatthewDiscipleofGod]

I am a little confused. I thought that Calvinism was a big part of the Baptist faith. The longer I keep hearing about Baptists that are not Calvinist. Other than Free Will Baptists, are there man Baptists who are not Calvinist?

I find that many baptists are not 5 point calvinists even though their offical church doctrine is 5 point calvinist. I myself don't hold to all the points of calvinism even though my official church doctrine does. By the way I do believe in OSAS. Once we are a new creature we don't have the desire to forsake God. Even though there may be times were still can get into some terrible sin and rebelling.

 

[Andyman_1970]

Since my inheritance is kept in Heaven by the power of God and not by the power of what I can or cannot do thats how I view Hebrews 6:4........and I'm not a Calvinist.

 

[rural_preacher]

I am a little confused. I thought that Calvinism was a big part of the Baptist faith. The longer I keep hearing about Baptists that are not Calvinist. Other than Free Will Baptists, are there man Baptists who are not Calvinist?

Danfrey,

I have started a new thread (so as to not highjack this thread) concerning this question concerning Baptists/Calvinism.

http://www.christianforums.com/t2861243-baptistswhat-are-they.html


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[Sword-In-Hand]

Since my inheritance is kept in Heaven by the power of God and not by the power of what I can or cannot do that how I view Hebrews 6:4........and I'm not a Calvinist.

Good response.

 

[Robinsegg]

If I can do nothing to earn my salvation, how can I do something to "unearn" my salvation?

However, a better example comes from Roman law: In Roman law, a man could choose to adopt anyone he wished. That adoptee then had all the rights and priveledges of a member of the family. No matter what that adoptee did, the father could not disown him, because, legally, the adoptee had the right to be part of the family. The father could disown biological children, but not one he chose to adopt.

Now, in a culture which was under Roman law, God uses the analogy of adoption for Gentiles who accept Christ. The analogy would have been clear to the contemporary audience. We question this (in my opinion) because we're ignorant of the cultural norms of the time and place the NT was written in.

Am I Calvanist? No. There's a lot I can't explain and don't understand. I'll try to answer that one in the other thread that's been established.

Rachel

 

[mesue]

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Hebrews 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Hebrews 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

It shows me that once I'm saved I'm always saved. It also tells me that 1 John 1:9 is still in my Bible.

1John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

 

[Danfrey]

How do you explain the parable of the sower in light of OSAS?

 

[timbrown]

How do you explain the parable of the sower in light of OSAS?

The parable of the sower is not really about the sower, it is about the different types of soils.

The first three are not receptive to the seed, to one degree or another. The soil is either hard, thorny or shallow. You can't blame the sower for the condition of the soil.

It has been said that "The same sun that melts the wax hardens the clay". That is true. And you don't blame the sun for what happens to the wax or clay.

The fourth soil is the one who bears fruit, which is a sign of conversion.

I could be wrong, but it seems to me you are struggling with the tension between God's sovereignty and the responsibility of man to respond. The Bible teaches both.

I remember when I was studying hermeneutics under John MacArthur. He used this as an example. You cannot resolve everything. If you could, you would be reducing God down to your own size. There are things that our puny little brains can't deal with. We don't have the whole picture nor the capacity to deal with it.

Some have tried to do it by "Ok, God could see who would chose Him and so He chose them." The only problem there is that makes man sovereign. By definition, either God is sovereign or man is.

The simple issue is that God is completely sovereign yet we are responsible to cultivate a saving relationship with Him.

I think your statement (...because God ordained it [I think is how you put it]) is really a reference to what is called "double predestination". That is a teaching that says God chose to save some and made others who have no choice but to be damned.

When I see someone who has "fallen away" I don't say "well they never were" and I don't add "Because God...". The simple matter is that they may not be that far off the road after all. We don't know the heart. I professed Christ years ago but wasn't a real convert.

Our responsibility is not changed at all no matter what the resolution of this is. We are charged with proclaiming the Gospel. Doesn't matter who has an "elect" tshirt or "nonelect" tshirt. We don't know who has what! We do it to glorify God by proclaiming the Gospel. God has promised to honor His word and He will use it to draw His own to Him.

There are some who believe that before His resurrection, Jesus made a pronouncment to the unsaved dead. Of course, that doesn't help their condition. But if it is true, why do it? Simply because it Glorifies God to spread the message. And possibly because at least they would know, like the rich man who woke up in hades, that there is really hope for the living, even though they are beyond hope themselves.

Don't know if that helps. Sorry for the long answer.

 

[mesue]

How do you explain the parable of the sower in light of OSAS?

Which part? The part where it says some will recieve the word and keep it and some won't?
Or the personal application about the ever changing condition of our own hearts, which is likened to the soil on which the seed (word) lands? That if our heart is not right with the Lord we don't recieve His word well?
What does any of this have to do with OSAS?

 

[Danfrey]

Luke 8
11 “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. 13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. 14 Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity. 15 But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience.

In the blue we have the people who hear and don't respond.
In the Green we have the people who are saved and fall away a short time later because they have no root.
In the Purple we have those who follow Christ but find that the cost is too high

How is this parable explained within the OSAS circles?

 

[MrJim]

Luke 8
11 “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. 13But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. 14 Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity. 15 But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience.

In the blue we have the people who hear and don't respond.
In the Green we have the people who are saved and fall away a short time later because they have no root.
In the Purple we have those who follow Christ but find that the cost is too high

How is this parable explained within the OSAS circles?

It makes perfect & simple sense-except when OSASer's try to turn it into something else. Sort of the idea of a parable-simple story to explain God's truth.

Nice job Danfrey

 

[mesue]

...
How is this parable explained within the OSAS circles?

It isn't.
We use this Scripture.
Some things for you to consider and to know why I know that I will never lose my salvation.
Jesus promised that I cannot lose my salvation:
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. (John 6:37)
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. (John 10:27-29)
Further, that I cannot do anything to lose my salvation because:
Salvation is by grace through faith, and not by works. It is a gift from God. No man can lose his salvation on his own, because no man earned his salvation.
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast. (Ephesians 2:8-9)
If I had to do anything to earn or keep my salvation, I would easily lose it.
For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. (Galatians 3:10)
For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. (James 2:10)
Yet 2 Timothy assures us it is Jesus Christ who keeps us, not we ourselves.
For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.
(2 Timothy 1:12)
Galatians 2:21 states clearly that if we could become righteous by anything we do, then Jesus Christ’s death was in vein.
I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
(Galatians 2:21)
God won’t cast me out, no man can cause me to lose my salvation, I cannot lose it myself and there is nothing else to make me lose my salvation
For I am persuaded, that neither
death, - you cannot lose it when you die
nor life, - you cannot lose it while you’re alive
nor angels, - cannot take it away from you
nor principalities, - the government can’t take it from you.
nor powers, - the devil cannot cause you to lose it.
nor things present, - nothing happening right now
nor things to come, - nothing happening in the future.
Nor height, - nothing above you.
nor depth, - nothing below you.
nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 8:38-39)
Does this mean I can go on and knowingly sin? Absolutely not!
What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. (Romans 6:15)
But how I serve the Lord while here on earth will be judged.
Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. (1Corinthians 3:13-15)

 

[Tenorvoice]

Back in November I E-mailed Davelue a sermon the Dr. Adrian Rogers gave on OSAS.

Davelue took some great notes on it, and posted them in This thread

Take some time to read what the Holy Spirit said on this Through Dr. Rogers (He is missed).

Thanks

Tenor

 

[Sword-In-Hand]

All of these OSAS debates just make me wanna ask one question. Why can't the saved just enjoy being saved? Why do other Christians want people to believe they can lose it? A one time offering of Blood was needed and one application is all it takes. Jesus isn't a little lamb that we have to sacrifice to God every time we sin. His Blood washed it away by one sacrifice. IMO it demeans the His attonement for us to think He plays cat and mouse with the most important miracle He's ever performed...salvation. He didn't make the healed deaf man go back to being deaf, He didn't make the healed blind man go back to being blind and we're gonna argue over His salvation? Please. Enjoy your salvation, I am. He gave it to us as a free gift.

 

[BrotherDerek]

I am new to the group, but this hits home. I have been debating clavinism. I have no problem seeing God as completly in charge.To me the most important thing to remember is that salvation is offered to all John 3:16. What scares me is getting so caught up in this. I like discussing it but wonder if some baptist churches preach this a lot?

 

[thepianist]

I am a little confused. I thought that Calvinism was a big part of the Baptist faith. The longer I keep hearing about Baptists that are not Calvinist. Other than Free Will Baptists, are there man Baptists who are not Calvinist?

Oh my!!! Please don't compare the Baptist denomination with Calvinistic beliefs. Trust me, they are NOT the same. The Baptist churches I've been in throughout my life believe that 'whosoever' means exactly that.... anybody can come to Jesus..... not just a certain amount that God 'predestined'. Whew.....

 

[Phileoeklogos]

To say that Calvinism has played no part in Baptist history, or to say that Calvinism is the whole of Baptist history would be incorrect. Calvinism has played a role in Baptist history, some groups were never Calvinist, some groups were, some groups have changed their position over the years, some groups are mixed, I think it was the great Baptist historian, F. Gump, that once said, " Baptists are like a box of chocolates...............?", or something like that...........

 

[rural_preacher]

It isn't.
We use this Scripture.
Some things for you to consider and to know why I know that I will never lose my salvation.
Jesus promised that I cannot lose my salvation:
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. (John 6:37)
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. (John 10:27-29)
Further, that I cannot do anything to lose my salvation because:
Salvation is by grace through faith, and not by works. It is a gift from God. No man can lose his salvation on his own, because no man earned his salvation.
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast. (Ephesians 2:8-9)
If I had to do anything to earn or keep my salvation, I would easily lose it.
For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. (Galatians 3:10)
For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. (James 2:10)
Yet 2 Timothy assures us it is Jesus Christ who keeps us, not we ourselves.
For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.
(2 Timothy 1:12)
Galatians 2:21 states clearly that if we could become righteous by anything we do, then Jesus Christ’s death was in vein.
I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
(Galatians 2:21)
God won’t cast me out, no man can cause me to lose my salvation, I cannot lose it myself and there is nothing else to make me lose my salvation
For I am persuaded, that neither
death, - you cannot lose it when you die
nor life, - you cannot lose it while you’re alive
nor angels, - cannot take it away from you
nor principalities, - the government can’t take it from you.
nor powers, - the devil cannot cause you to lose it.
nor things present, - nothing happening right now
nor things to come, - nothing happening in the future.
Nor height, - nothing above you.
nor depth, - nothing below you.
nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 8:38-39)
Does this mean I can go on and knowingly sin? Absolutely not!
What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. (Romans 6:15)
But how I serve the Lord while here on earth will be judged.
Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. (1Corinthians 3:13-15)

AMEN!
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You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to mesue again.

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