How do you support OSAS in light of Heb 6:4 without being Calvinist?

[MrJim]

It isn't.

So what is the Parable of the Sower all about for the OSASers?

 

[Danfrey]

It isn't.

Are you saying that the parable of the sower is igonored?

There are a couple of items I would like to discuss here. First, in order to prove OSAS we have to ignore or creatively reinterpret many scriptures. Second, I will show that the people hearing these scriptures in their own language did not understand them to teach OSAS. I know many will reject the patristic teachings because they don't agree with their own, but hopefully it will give people something to think about.

We use this Scripture.
Some things for you to consider and to know why I know that I will never lose my salvation.
Jesus promised that I cannot lose my salvation:

All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. (John 6:37)
This could also mean that those who come to him will not be rejected.

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. (John 10:27-29)
These scriptures talk of another man plucking them from his hand. The whole Chapter speaks of others coming before that were not the messiah. There is nothing in this chapter that says a man can not reject him and be damned.

Further, that I cannot do anything to lose my salvation because:
Salvation is by grace through faith, and not by works. It is a gift from God. No man can lose his salvation on his own, because no man earned his salvation.

The idea that I cannot lose something because I din not earn it is flawed logic. If you gave me a gift, I could easily toss it into the fire to be burned up.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast. (Ephesians 2:8-9)
If I had to do anything to earn or keep my salvation, I would easily lose it.
For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. (Galatians 3:10)
For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. (James 2:10)
Yet 2 Timothy assures us it is Jesus Christ who keeps us, not we ourselves.
For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.
(2 Timothy 1:12)
Galatians 2:21 states clearly that if we could become righteous by anything we do, then Jesus Christ’s death was in vein.
I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
(Galatians 2:21)
God won’t cast me out, no man can cause me to lose my salvation, I cannot lose it myself and there is nothing else to make me lose my salvation
For I am persuaded, that neither
death, - you cannot lose it when you die
nor life, - you cannot lose it while you’re alive
nor angels, - cannot take it away from you
nor principalities, - the government can’t take it from you.
nor powers, - the devil cannot cause you to lose it.
nor things present, - nothing happening right now
nor things to come, - nothing happening in the future.
Nor height, - nothing above you.
nor depth, - nothing below you.
nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 8:38-39)
Does this mean I can go on and knowingly sin? Absolutely not!
What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. (Romans 6:15)
But how I serve the Lord while here on earth will be judged.
Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. (1Corinthians 3:13-15)

Matt 10
21 “Now brother will deliver up brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death. 22 And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved. 23 When they persecute you in this city, flee to another. For assuredly, I say to you, you will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

Matt 24
1And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Luke 9
62 But Jesus said to him, “No one, having put his hand to the plow, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.”

John 8
31Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

John 15
5I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
7If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
8Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
9As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
10If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

2 Tim 2
1It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: 12If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:


Heb 6
4For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
7For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.


Heb 10
26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.


2 Pet 2
20For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

From the Ante-Nicene Fathers


Barnabas 1.138

We ought therefore, brethren, carefully to inquire concerning our salvation, lest the wicked one, having made his entrance by deceit, should hurl1463 us forth from our [true] life

Clement of Rome 1.12
Since then all things are seen and heard [by God], let us fear Him, and forsake those wicked works which proceed from evil desires;115 so that, through His mercy, we may be protected from the judgments to come. For whither can any of us flee from His mighty hand? Or what world will receive any of those who run away from Him?

Hermas 2.23
Now, if anger be mingled with patience, the patience is polluted,184 and its prayer is not then useful to God.” “I should like, sir,” said I, “to know the power of anger, that I may guard myself against it.” And he said, “If you do not guard yourself against it, you and your house lose all hope of salvation.

Ireneaus 1.499 We ought not, therefore, as that presbyter remarks, to be puffed up, nor be severe upon those of old time, but ought ourselves to fear, lest perchance, after [we have come to] the knowledge of Christ, if we do things displeasing to God, we obtain no further forgiveness of sins, but be shut out from His kingdom

I have shown that there are several scriptures that tak about a saved person losing their salvation, or better to say throw away their salvation. The scripture that is clearest on this is the explaination of the Parable of the Sower from the words of Jesus himself. There is no way to discount this parable because he explains exactly what it means.

I have also shown that the Greek speaking early christians understood the scriptures to teach that a man could lose his salvation. Nobody could take it away from him, but he could throw it away.

I also want to address the whole Grace and works issue. There is this idea that those of us who believe we can throw away our salvation somehow believe we earned it. This is misrepresentation of most people who believe this way. I know very clearly that it was the work of Jesus on the cross that paid the price for my salvation.


Finally, I am still open to understanding how the OSAS circles explain the parable of the sower.

 

[mesue]

Are you saying that the parable of the sower is igonored?

...

I'm saying I have never heard it used to explain OSAS(Once Saved Always Saved) vs OSNAS (Once Saved Not Always Saved)
And, why would someone use it? There's so much Scripture to show that one is OSAS. If one is OSNAS then I have to wonder about that one's salvation. Whom is that one trusting? God or themselves for their salvation?

 

[Tenorvoice]

Also....

To say that one is OSNAS is to say that the Work of Christ on the Cross really means nothing, for in saying OSNAS you are saying that by your own personal work that you can undo something that G-d has done.

Are we more powerful than G-d?

 

[Tenorvoice]

This is from Zondervan's NIV Bible commentary that I have on file.

Starting in Mark Chapter 4 Verse 14:

14 The "farmer" is Christ himself; and the "word" is the word of the kingdom (cf. Mt 13:19), i.e., the coming of the reign of God in the person and work of Jesus. Whereas in the parable itself the emphasis is on the sowing of the word, in the interpretation it is on the kind of reception Jesus' word receives. Note that Jesus had already received negative responses to his proclamation (chs. 2-3).

15-20 The seeds sown on the hard-beaten path indicate those who have a shallow reception of the word. Satan snatches it from them before it has had an opportunity to take root.
The seeds sown on rocky places picture another hindrance to proper reception of the word: persecution and trials. This word of Jesus must have been particularly relevant to the Roman church and probably sounded a warning to any who, because of persecution and trials, may have been thinking of defecting from the faith; such people have no root in themselves.
The third group of hearers seem to make good progress, but the word is choked out by daily worries that distract them, by wealth that gives a false sense of security, and by anything else that might prevent the sown word from being productive.

Some seed does fall on good soil and is productive. Such people are open and receptive to the word of the kingdom. The message gets through to them and issues forth in a productive life. The parable therefore emphasizes our responsibility to listen to and obey Christ's message to us.

------------------------------------------------------
Nowhere does this teach OSNAS

 

[JPPT1974]

Thanks for explaning it all
Really well!

 

[Danfrey]

I think that Jesus' explaination is very clear on this one. Obviously there are those who disagree. For the sake of peace I am going to leave this one were it lays.

 

[MrJim]

I think that Jesus' explaination is very clear on this one. Obviously there are those who disagree. For the sake of peace I am going to leave this one were it lays.

I was hardcore calvinist once but came around-and it wasn't by debate but Holy Spirit & study. That's generally how these things work.

 

[A Brother In Christ]

How do you support OSAS in light of Hebrews 6:4-6 without being Calvinist?

title says it all, scripture is:

”4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. “


Without saying "eh, they weren’t saved to begin with, because God pre-destined it"

only believer can taste the goodness of the word


hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after we have recieved the full experiencial knowledge of the truth[living christian life..dead to OSN] , there remaineth no more sacrifice of sins...

Hebrews 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourageth every son whom he recieveth.

 

[MbiaJc]

How do you support OSAS in light of Hebrews 6:4-6 without being Calvinist?

title says it all, scripture is:

”4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. “


Without saying "eh, they weren’t saved to begin with, because God pre-destined it"

These are the ones, liken unto the Israelites that went in and searched out the land of canon. They partook of the fruit of the land and seen how great it was. However they came back and said there were Giants in the land and it couldn't be taken.
They never possessed the land.

 

[DeaconDean]

How do you support OSAS in light of Hebrews 6:4-6 without being Calvinist?

title says it all, scripture is:

”4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. “


Without saying "eh, they weren’t saved to begin with, because God pre-destined it"

I personally believe that the parable of the sower has a lot of bearing on this. It boils down to whether or not the "believer" truely was saved in the first place.

"And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow; And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:" -Matt. 13:3-4

Looking at this scripture, we see that the sower went out and sowed some seed, some of which fell by the wayside. (v. 3-4) These are those who hear the word but do not take it to heart. They are easily led astray by false doctrines and teachers who are "ear ticklers." They will follow after any doctrine which isn't in line with what the Bible says. Because the Bible gives us strick guidlines to follow, many don't like them. So it is easy for the devil to seduce them away. (v. 19)

"Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth: And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away." -Matt. 13:5-6

Many a "believer" receives the word with great joy. And once again they fail to take it to heart. When times of testing come, people who might challenge their faith, they can't explain things and lose their faith and commitment. I have seen many who fall into this category come to church, make a confession, be baptized, and in a matter of months, they are back in the world. They have no root, not in the word, not in the church, not in Christ. That is why they fall away. Persecution of their faith causes them to fall. (v. 20-21)

"And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:" -Matt. 13:7

Some people hear the word and still don't take it to heart. Their commitment isn't to Jesus. Rather they still care for the things of the world. They get to the point where money, job, and the pursuit of worldly things "choke" the word. As a resul they become "unfruitful." They also did not have root in Jesus.

"But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold." -Matt. 13:8

The good ground is the church. Those who are out there striving to do God's work. Some will do better than others but all are striving to do His will. Those are the ones who will never fall or fail.

In light of what is said in Heb. 6:4-6, you have to look and question whether or not they were truely ever saved. Because if they were truely saved, then they would be like the seed which fell on good ground.

"Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:" -Phil. 1:6

God has started something in me and He will see it through until it is completed or Jesus returns, which ever comes first. Satan has nothing to offer the true believer. We know what he is and what he offers.

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand." -Jn. 10:27-29

This passage of scripture tells me that Jesus called me out of a world of sin. I accepted Him as my Savior, my Shepherd. No man can take out of Jesus' hand. Why? Because I know the true Shepherd, I know who and what He is. God gave me into Jesus' hands. And God is greater than anything or anybody. And no man, neither myself or another is able to take me out of His hands. I can't even take myself out of God's hand because if I could, that would contridict verse 28, and I'm certainly not more powerful than God. I can apostize though. (I myself, could never do this) There are those who apostize, deny their salvation, deny Jesus Christ and God, turn their back on Him. And if they do this, then was their root in Jesus Christ in the first place? Were they ever truely saved in the first place.

That's my two cents worth. God Bless.

 

[Sword-In-Hand]

I personally believe that the parable of the sower has a lot of bearing on this. It boils down to whether or not the "believer" truely was saved in the first place.

"And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow; And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:" -Matt. 13:3-4

Looking at this scripture, we see that the sower went out and sowed some seed, some of which fell by the wayside. (v. 3-4) These are those who hear the word but do not take it to heart. They are easily led astray by false doctrines and teachers who are "ear ticklers." They will follow after any doctrine which isn't in line with what the Bible says. Because the Bible gives us strick guidlines to follow, many don't like them. So it is easy for the devil to seduce them away. (v. 19)

"Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth: And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away." -Matt. 13:5-6

Many a "believer" receives the word with great joy. And once again they fail to take it to heart. When times of testing come, people who might challenge their faith, they can't explain things and lose their faith and commitment. I have seen many who fall into this category come to church, make a confession, be baptized, and in a matter of months, they are back in the world. They have no root, not in the word, not in the church, not in Christ. That is why they fall away. Persecution of their faith causes them to fall. (v. 20-21)

"And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:" -Matt. 13:7

Some people hear the word and still don't take it to heart. Their commitment isn't to Jesus. Rather they still care for the things of the world. They get to the point where money, job, and the pursuit of worldly things "choke" the word. As a resul they become "unfruitful." They also did not have root in Jesus.

"But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold." -Matt. 13:8

The good ground is the church. Those who are out there striving to do God's work. Some will do better than others but all are striving to do His will. Those are the ones who will never fall or fail.

In light of what is said in Heb. 6:4-6, you have to look and question whether or not they were truely ever saved. Because if they were truely saved, then they would be like the seed which fell on good ground.

"Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:" -Phil. 1:6

God has started something in me and He will see it through until it is completed or Jesus returns, which ever comes first. Satan has nothing to offer the true believer. We know what he is and what he offers.

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand." -Jn. 10:27-29

This passage of scripture tells me that Jesus called me out of a world of sin. I accepted Him as my Savior, my Shepherd. No man can take out of Jesus' hand. Why? Because I know the true Shepherd, I know who and what He is. God gave me into Jesus' hands. And God is greater than anything or anybody. And no man, neither myself or another is able to take me out of His hands. I can't even take myself out of God's hand because if I could, that would contridict verse 28, and I'm certainly not more powerful than God. I can apostize though. (I myself, could never do this) There are those who apostize, deny their salvation, deny Jesus Christ and God, turn their back on Him. And if they do this, then was their root in Jesus Christ in the first place? Were they ever truely saved in the first place.

That's my two cents worth. God Bless.

Philippian 1:6 is my favorite verse and how so true it is. Nice post DD.

 

[FreeinChrist]

I personally believe that the parable of the sower has a lot of bearing on this. It boils down to whether or not the "believer" truely was saved in the first place.

"Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth: And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away." -Matt. 13:5-6

Many a "believer" receives the word with great joy. And once again they fail to take it to heart. When times of testing come, people who might challenge their faith, they can't explain things and lose their faith and commitment. I have seen many who fall into this category come to church, make a confession, be baptized, and in a matter of months, they are back in the world. They have no root, not in the word, not in the church, not in Christ. That is why they fall away. Persecution of their faith causes them to fall. (v. 20-21)

I agree that the Parable of the Sower has bearing on OSAS.

"no root" - no indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Not saved. Salvation is not up to man but up to God. He is the one that reads the true intent of a person's heart.

 

[JPPT1974]

Salvation is indeed up to God
And nobody but God
Good way of putting it!

 

[Soldat_fur_Christ]

Question: "Does Hebrews 6:4-6 mean we can lose our salvation?"

Answer: Hebrews 6:4-6 is one of the most difficult passages to interpret in the entire Bible. If it truly says that believers can lose their salvation, then it is also saying that “ex-believers” can NEVER regain their salvation, “it is impossible…if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance.” To my knowledge, everyone who teaches that salvation can be lost also believes that salvation can be regained. But, if Hebrews 6:4-6 is used to prove loss of salvation, then it also proves that salvation lost can never be regained.

So, what do I think Hebrews 6:4-6 is saying? I believe it is presenting a “hypothetical” situation. It is saying that if a true believer were to fall away (which 1 John 2:19 says is impossible) then there would be no other way of salvation, because there is no other way (John 14:6; Acts 4:12). If believers were to reject Christ (which is impossible) they could never come back because “to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace” (Hebrews 6:6).

gotquestions dot org

*Note: seeing I'm under 15 posts, I can't post links, so replace the dot with a real . and you can goto that site, it's awesome!!

 

[Imblessed]

So, what do I think Hebrews 6:4-6 is saying? I believe it is presenting a “hypothetical” situation. It is saying that if a true believer were to fall away (which 1 John 2:19 says is impossible) then there would be no other way of salvation, because there is no other way (John 14:6; Acts 4:12). If believers were to reject Christ (which is impossible) they could never come back because “to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace” (Hebrews 6:6).

that's pretty much how i understand it. But, then I'm a calvinist...sooo....maybe I shouldn't even answer

 

[JPPT1974]

I am not a Calvinist but pretty much understand Hebrews 6:4!

 

[A Brother In Christ]

I agree that the Parable of the Sower has bearing on OSAS.

"no root" - no indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Not saved. Salvation is not up to man but up to God. He is the one that reads the true intent of a person's heart.

the parables are OT truth... NO indwelling at all this is a mystery

salvation is by a form of Faith and grace

OT believer had different objects of faith than we do know

are gospel is 1 cor 15:3-4
OT saints couldn't have faith of this...

 

[JPPT1974]

the parables are OT truth... NO indwelling at all this is a mystery

salvation is by a form of Faith and grace

OT believer had different objects of faith than we do know

are gospel is 1 cor 15:3-4
OT saints couldn't have faith of this...

Yeah they are different indeed
As the OT has different objects of faith
Than the NT do!

 

[MbiaJc]

the parables are OT truth... NO indwelling at all this is a mystery

salvation is by a form of Faith and grace

OT believer had different objects of faith than we do know

are gospel is 1 cor 15:3-4
OT saints couldn't have faith of this...

I beg to disagree, that is not a true statment according it Romans.

Rom 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? v4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. v4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. v 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. v 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. v4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, v4:7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. v4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. v4:9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. v10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. v11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:


We know the Law did not save anyone. So how were the OT saints saved. By grace through faith, same as father Aberham, same as we are today.
The Law was just the schoolmaster leading us all to Jesus Christ. They were looking forward to the cross, while we look back at the cross.