How do you measure morality?

[zippy2006]

So, how do you measure morality? What statistics prove that the world is less moral today than even 50 years ago?

Number living in poverty? Starvation? Abortion? Murder? Or is church attendance your only measure?

Morality is a category that applies to the intentional decisions of individuals, so if you are interested in statistics then the statistics would have to reflect the intentional decisions of individuals. The second table of the ten commandments would be a good place to start for common denominator morality (honor your parents, do not kill, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not lie, and do not covet your neighbor's wife or goods).

When people say it used to be better 50 ago they are probably thinking of headline news like school shootings, gang violence, terrorism, political incivility, etc. The material conditions of a population are not the same as the moral character of the population, though of course some influence does occur.

 

[salt-n-light]

In virtually every measure, the world has become a better place to live IN THE AGGREGATE for the last 200 years at least. Fundamentalists of all stripes (Christian, Jew, Muslim) seem to be entrenched in the notion that the world is going to hell fast.

So, how do you measure morality? What statistics prove that the world is less moral today than even 50 years ago?

Number living in poverty? Starvation? Abortion? Murder? Or is church attendance your only measure?

Does it matter essentially that the world is better to live in (in your subjective viewpoint btw), if we all still die? If we all still face sin? Yes, for those blessed enough to see it be better (again not everyone can say that), it gives a breathing room for the only life they can see, but how we move is not tied to the morals established in this life but by standards placed by God, which can be known through the Word.

The world improving more or less doesn't matter. What matters is that like our own vessels this world has a death sentence already, the reality is that no amount of good or bad morals can save you from that fate, at some point, there will be a new heaven and a new earth. God made a covenant with us in which both parties have to do their part in order for it to succeed. He has set his laws already how to both maneuver through this life to get where we need to go after death.

Poverty, starvation, abortion, murder, all those things yes they are important to address. But one who understand the move of God, would also understand that what we are going through now are a blimp in comparison to what God plans to establish after this life, whether it ends up being eternal life or death. I would rather based them on standards that will last, than on standards that sway with society.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

They are in and of them selves a statement of love.

I think the first 4 are nothing but statements of petty and jealousy.
The other 6... I'ld say that if a person would require to have those instructions to be written down in order to know about them, that person likely is a psychopath or sociopath.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

However, there is one flaw. Who's well being are we talking about.

Everybody's.

If something benefits my well being but negatively affects another's, is that thing good or bad?

I'ld require more specific information.
With the little (none, actually) info you've provided, I'ld have to say "bad".

The point is that the very definition of "well being" is subjective to the individual

It's not.
Just like "healthy" vs "sick" isn't a matter of subjective opinion.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Understandable. However, if we look at the long term effects and consequences of actions to determine goodness of well being, obviously we will not be able to determine these consequences until much later in most cases.

Not really.

Take global warming and the changing climate as a direct result of specific human activities.
Most of us, will not be around to see the very devastating effects of our current activities. Maybe not even our children. But certaintly our grand children and beyond.

100 years ago, it wasn't known what the long term effects were of those activities. So in those days, we did not have the required intel to be able to make a correct moral evaluation of these activities.

But we do today.
So today, refusing to do what actually needs to be done to eliminate those activities, is an immoral practice. Because now we KNOW what the consequences are.

In my opinion, the mere concept of "morality" is a nonsensical term if there isn't an objective standard to measure it.

But the "standard" you are proposing, isn't a standard at all!!!
What you are proposing, is just an AUTHORITY. What you call "moral behaviour" is no more or less then obedience to this authority's dictates and commandments.

There is no measuring anything in that view. There is just being obedient.
Well-being on the other hand, actually IS a standard.
That is something that GIVES you a means to actually measure morality. It gives you something to reason about. It gives you a standard by wich you can make actual moral evaluations.

Of course, for theists, this objective standard is God

As I have just explained, that isn't a "standard" at all. It's just a perceived authority that requires obedience. No reasoning, no measuring, no evaluating... just unquestionable obedience.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I again get what you are saying... Through much trial and tribulations, I have concluded that to argue for or against the existence of God, by using 'morality' as ones gauge or tool, demonstrates as follows...

If God does actually exist, then only 'divine dictates' are demonstrated. The 'absolute moral arbiter' dishes out prophetic moral pronouncements, and we are to follow them as ordered; or suffer whatever alternative fate awaits in opposition. Which means, we are not practicing 'morality' in any sorts; but instead following commands... (i.e.) Like someone else mentioned a while ago... You are in the military and are told to advance your troops accordingly. You may not agree, but your orders are given from the commander.

If God does not exist, then we are left to fend for ourselves with 'right' and 'wrong' moral scenarios; like we also do with politics and economics (which is not absolute/objective). Whether we think something is right or wrong, has absolutely no baring upon if God exists or not. So the point always goes back to....

Demonstrate the existence of God. And until you do, you cannot prove the moral pronouncements came from the 'moral law giver' simply by asserting so. One must demonstrate the existence of such an agent first, before we can even begin.

And until then, atheists, skeptics, and believers of other/alternative religions and faiths judge the 'morals' of the opposing claimed dictates; by using their own rationales and thoughts.

I'll add to that.... that demonstrating a god exists, doesn't actually help in moral behaviour the way I see it.

Because why MUST this god be "good"?

Why can't this God be a bored sadistic entity that created a universe with absurd commandments to watch unfold for his entertainment?

So let's assume that the existance of a creator god is proven.
Now that we've established that this entity exists... wouldn't we still have all our work cut out for us to then go ahead and establish that this god is in fact "good" and not "bad"?

And to do that, wouldn't we necessarily have to have a moral standard that is not inherent to this god? It comes down to that age old question: "Is X good because God says it is... or does God say that X is good, because X is actually good for reasons other then this God saying it is?"

If we are going to call God "good", then I'ld think that "good" must be definable without using God. Otherwise, it's just circular mumbo jumbo.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

There is only one moral measuring rule, treating others as you would wish to be treated yourself.

What if being tortured gives you sexual pleasure?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

What is the basis for an atheistic society to show love to others?
That they do is admirable. What in atheistic philosophy tells nontheist to love others?

It's a human emotion. It sounds incredibly weird to me to suggest that "loving others" is some kind of instruction. I didn't "choose" to love my wife or kids. I just do.

Yes they do not tell people to love.
Love cannot be commanded

So, you do understand that love is not something that can be commanded?
Then what are you doing asking what part of "atheistic philosophy" (whatever that is) tells people to love?

, but to fully obey them one has to love.

Not at all.
I personally hate my neighbour. He's a real....x-hole.
I really really hate the guy. Whenever I see his douchy face, a cold shiver runs down my spine.

But I'm not killing him.
I'm respecting him as a human being.
I'm not going out of my way to make his life miserable.
I still keep in mind that playing my music too loud will annoy my neighbour.

Yet, I hate the guy.

 

[Uber Genius]

In virtually every measure, the world has become a better place to live IN THE AGGREGATE for the last 200 years at least. Fundamentalists of all stripes (Christian, Jew, Muslim) seem to be entrenched in the notion that the world is going to hell fast.

So, how do you measure morality? What statistics prove that the world is less moral today than even 50 years ago?

Number living in poverty? Starvation? Abortion? Murder? Or is church attendance your only measure?

Great question.
The greatest correlation seems to be free markets and international trade and reduction of subsistence poverty. Some studies show Free market economics over the last 60 years have reduced subsistence poverty by 1.6 Billion individuals. I don't have the reference handy so some searching and verification will be required.

That said, perhaps the morality increase has to do with the fall of socialism/communism worldwide over the last 30 years. Again, less totalitarianism less state-sponsored immorality, but sometimes there is a trade off. The USSR demanded a monopoly of theft of people's property, and murder. There wasn't much crime due to being shot in prison or sent to a gulag.

Now while poverty and brutish totalitarianism is in decline other moral standards common in the 1950s in the US seems to be equally in decline. Few would even consider being celibate until marriage. Similarly, abortion and divorce seem to occur as similar rates despite whether one is Christian or not.

It was rare to find Hollywood showing premarital sex of adultery in the 1950s. But by the 1960s that had changed. We have seen a slippery slope and the law of diminishing returns producing quite a different entertainment offering that the least prudish would grant is amoral.

But economics rather than Church influence has led to the increase in morality in terms of a rising tide lifts all boats.

In fact Catholic influence in Latin and South American countries has led to repressive socialist regimes.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

That said, perhaps the morality increase has to do with the fall of socialism/communism worldwide over the last 30 years.

"Supposed" morality increase.

With the sex trade alone, a decline (in morality worldwide) is indicated.

With alcohol and hollywood and demon worship, a decline is indicated.

With oppressing the poor alone, a decline is indicated.

and so on..... by every measure from God's Word, a decline is indicated.

 

[Uber Genius]

"Supposed" morality increase.

With the sex trade alone, a decline (in morality worldwide) is indicated.

With alcohol and hollywood and demon worship, a decline is indicated.

With oppressing the poor alone, a decline is indicated.

and so on..... by every measure from God's Word, a decline is indicated.

So I was talking about the data, not a particular inference in terms of end times prophecies about decline.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

So I was talking about the data, not a particular inference in terms of end times prophecies about decline.

GOOD ! Just the data. Everything is worse daily.

p.s. except of course whenever any soul is saved - then ALL THE ANGELS IN HEAVEN REJOICE WITH GREAT REJOICING !!!!!!! YES ! HALLELUYAH ! ! !

 

[Uber Genius]

GOOD ! Just the data. Everything is worse daily.

p.s. except of course whenever any soul is saved - then ALL THE ANGELS IN HEAVEN REJOICE WITH GREAT REJOICING !!!!!!! YES ! HALLELUYAH ! ! !

So you didn't read my original post apparently, or you didn't comprehend it, or perhaps are just trying to put words in my mouth?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

"Just the data." i.e. Just the facts.....