How do you measure morality?

[cvanwey]

Assuming that Islam is the one true religion and Allah did in fact command them to exterminate infidels, yes, they did not commit murder just like Joshua's slaughter of the Amalekites wasn't murder. Assuming that Islam is correct of course.

This is what I've said in several other arenas and topics. If one particular God does exist, and applies an order, you are to follow it. Such actions do no encompass the topic of the term 'morality', but is instead following commands. Because, if such a God DOES exist, it does NOT matter what the human thinks. If the human happens to disagree, it would not matter regardless. You could state that such a commanding God knows best. However, the human is not practicing any 'morality'. The human disagrees, but follows orders, because they are commanded to by their operating commander. Exercising your own 'moral judgement' is not applicable.

Jesus sums up the entire law in Mathew 22:26-40 as to simply love God and to love each other. If you obeyed the second part, naturally the other 6 commandments would be followed.

Disagree. From the jump, God had the ability to demonstrate the most important tenets to follow. And in doing so, 'love thy neighbor' was not one of them. It seems clear that if to 'love thy neighbor' was one of the most important, it would have presented upon the top ten. The other commandments are pretty explicit, precise, concise, and clear. There appears no shady grey areas for interpretation.

This is a hermeneutical question, The OT Law is traditionally broken down into three categories.
1. Ceremonial
2. Civil
3. Moral

Ceremonial Laws are laws specific to temple worship. These are the laws which outline animal sacrifices and the roles and responsibilities of the priests. These laws only apply to priests in the Holy Temple which houses the Ark of the Covenant. Since no such temple exists, these laws cannot be applied today even if we wanted to.

Civil laws were the various laws that were intended to set apart and preserve God's chosen people (the Israelites). These laws consisted of the various food and clothing restrictions. Many Orthodox Jews still practice these laws. These laws determine if something is "kosher" or not. Furthermore, as previously stated, these laws were intended to protect and preserve the Israelites, not all gentiles. This was because God's plan was to have the Messiah come from Israelite lineage. More specifically, from the house of Judah. This is why Orthodox Jews still follow these laws because they do not recognize Jesus as the Messiah. They still practice them in anticipation of the coming Messiah. Messianic Jews believe that Jesus was the Messiah so they do not believe that following such laws are required. Because its purpose has been fulfilled. Rather, they may choose to follow them to preserve their traditions. Not necessarily because they are required. So unless you are an Israelite descendant from the House of Judah and do not believe Jesus is the Messiah, the civil laws do not apply.

Now we are left with the Moral Laws. The moral laws are direct commands of God. A good example is the Ten Commandments (Ex 20:1-17) and the two great commandments (Mathew 22:26-40) . The moral laws reveal the nature and will of God, and still apply to us today.

I was already aware of the distinctions, but still do not agree with the conclusion.

I understand where you are coming from. However, it is not accurate. If I told you, "Thou shalt not touch the hot stove. If you do, you will get burned" and chose to disobey me. Your burn would be a direct consequence to the decision you made, not because of my wrath. You and you alone would be responsible for your suffering fingers. Likewise, God's purpose for humanity is to love Him and to have a relationship with Him. If you choose not to have a relationship with Him, you are choosing to be separated from Him. You are not fulfilling your created purpose and will be discarded like a defective God loves you too much to force you to spend eternity with Him and I guarantee that He loved every single soul that He cast into Hell. But don't be mistaken, if you go to Hell it is because you chose separation and now you will spend eternity dealing with those consequences. God is no more responsible for your suffering than I would be of your burnt fingers.

This is false. I know of very few parents, whom claim unconditional love for their children, whom would lock them in a dungeon or torture for eternity, for denouncing their parents.

In my specific case, here is a more befitting parent/child scenario....

I'm adopted. My adopted parent tells me my natural mother wants to arrange a meeting with me. I state I want nothing to do with her, and do not even think that my natural mother exists, as I heard she died in child birth. By adoptive mother tells me and also swears to me that my natural mother does exist and wants to meet me. So I finally give in and state, 'okay, I'll meet my natural mother. Where can I go to meet her?' The adoptive mother tells me to channel communication through prayer, or communicative means which exclude a physical based interaction. The adoptive mother continues to tell me that my natural mother loves me and wants a relationship with me. And yet, I am unable to meet with her, or know that she actually exists for sure. I am later told that if I do not ultimately love my natural mother, I will be punished. I have no choice but to ultimately not accept my natural mother as being alive, as I have no evidence, other than assertions from other people. And yet, I'm not only instructed to think my natural mother does still exist, but am told to LOVE her. And if I do not, then I burn forever.

There is an interesting book I read by Gustavo Gutierrez called "On Job: God Talk and the Suffering of the Innocent". There is an interesting part where he discusses a concept called "disinterested faith". Naturally, he uses Job as an example where faith is tested. He notes that Job's righteousness is not in question (Job 1:1,8). It was the motive of his righteousness that was the issue (Job 1:9). The test was to see if Job would obey God regardless of fear of punishment or promise of reward. True biblical worship is done for no other reason than out of love regardless of promises or threats.

But how can I LOVE someone or something which I prayed to for decades and never received contact from? And when I don't, also being aware (through scripture), that if such an agent IS true, I will burn forever. All-the-while, being told that God CHOOSES whom will know Him. Seems ODD.

I believe you are misunderstanding the context. Is a mother not expressing love for her children when she warns them not to touch a hot stove? You referenced John 3:16-18 but you seem to have overlooked verse 17 "For God did not send his Son into the to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him" (John 3:17). The scripture is basically saying that Jesus is your loving mother telling you to not touch the hot stove because He doesn't want you to get burned.

Please address my 'mother' analogy above.

 

[cvanwey]

There is only one moral measuring rule, treating others as you would wish to be treated yourself.

As instructed by Confucius around 2,500 years ago?

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

Disagree. From the jump, God had the ability to demonstrate the most important tenets to follow. And in doing so, 'love thy neighbor' was not one of them. It seems clear that if to 'love thy neighbor' was one of the most important, it would have presented upon the top ten. The other commandments are pretty explicit, precise, concise, and clear. There appears no shady grey areas for interpretation.

I am not quire sure if you know this or not, but Leviticus 19:9-18 clearly explains it. Thus, your entire argument on this topic falls flat.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

This is false. I know of very few parents, whom claim unconditional love for their children, whom would lock them in a dungeon or torture for eternity, for denouncing their parents.

Hell is eternal separation from God. God is not punishing you for eternity no more than the Prodigal Son was being forced to eat pig slop by his father. I don't think the barrier that is holding you back is an intellectual one. You seem like a very intelligent individual. However, for many skeptics the barrier is not an intellectual one, rather it is a barrier of the will. I do not know if you fall into this camp or not. The only thing left I will say on this topic is that until you let go of this notion that God is some vengeful being out to unleash His wrath on all those who don't fall in line, you will always have this wall keeping you from Him.

But how can I LOVE someone or something which I prayed to for decades and never received contact from? And when I don't, also being aware (through scripture), that if such an agent IS true, I will burn forever. All-the-while, being told that God CHOOSES whom will know Him. Seems ODD.

To be honest, this question is one that is difficult to answer. All I know is that scripture says that it is God's will that none should perish but to come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9). However, we are saved by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8-9) and that if we confess with our mouth that Jesus is Lord we will be saved (Romans 10:9). However, nobody can confess that Jesus is Lord except by the power of the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:3). So this leaves us with a difficult question. How are we then responsible for our decision to come to a saving faith if we can only do so by the grace of God? The answer that you will get will vary depending on one's faith tradition. Calvinists and particular Baptists will tell you to read Romans 9 and stop questioning God. Others will tell you differently. I personally believe that there is a difference between "belief" and "faith". Belief is a product of knowledge and experience. You cannot choose what you believe or not believe and that only something exterior from yourself (new knowledge or experience) can change your beliefs. So for most skeptics, telling them they have to believe that Jesus is Lord is no different than telling them they must believe that the electronic device you are currently using to read this post doesn't exist. You may truly want to believe that your computer is an illusion, but until some new evidence or experience convinces you otherwise, you can't.

Faith, on the other hand, is a product of trust when there is a lack of knowledge or experience. Faith is a choice because you can choose to trust something or someone. The disciple, Thomas is an example of this which is why he is commonly called "Doubting Thomas". The point is that I cannot change your beliefs. The Holy Spirit is the only exterior source of knowledge and experience that can change your beliefs. However, you can choose to trust. I understand your frustration from desperately praying and searching for a God who seems to remain silent. I was there too. However, you can choose to trust that if God really exists, He will reveal Himself to you when the time is right. It may not be now. It may not be 10 years from now. Perhaps he wants to use this period of your life as part of your testimony.

 

[cvanwey]

I am not quire sure if you know this or not, but Leviticus 19:9-18 clearly explains it. Thus, your entire argument on this topic falls flat.

I'm truly scratching my head with this response sir...

You stated the (2) main objectives was to love God, and to also love your neighbor. I agreed with the first, but not the later. I then stated that if the (2) main objectives were as such, they would present in the 10 commandments. To 'love your God' might be argued or denoted in the first 4 commandments (but still left to question quite frankly). The last six do not indicate loving thy neighbor, but instead states what not to do to your neighbor. You can most certainly be told not to steal, covet, bear false witness, kill, while not being instructed to love them. -- Really no different then a business owner placing a sign on their front door stating, 'no shoes, no shirt, no service.' Or, a land owner placing a 'do not trespass' sign on their property.

Pulling a random verse from the Bible, which could be interpreted in more than one way, which is not directly associated, is perplexing indeed.

As stated prior, if the two tenets were of the most important, the 10 commandments would reflect as such; but they don't.

 

[cvanwey]

Hell is eternal separation from God.

You would have to ignore or 're-interpret' many verses within the NT to think that this is ALL that Hell is If you wish to 'turn a blind eye' to the many many many verses which express the eternal torment which awaits in such a placed destination, that's on you.

God is not punishing you for eternity no more than the Prodigal Son was being forced to eat pig slop by his father. I don't think the barrier that is holding you back is an intellectual one. You seem like a very intelligent individual. However, for many skeptics the barrier is not an intellectual one, rather it is a barrier of the will. I do not know if you fall into this camp or not. The only thing left I will say on this topic is that until you let go of this notion that God is some vengeful being out to unleash His wrath on all those who don't fall in line, you will always have this wall keeping you from Him.

I did for over three decades and found that I was most likely talking to myself in prayer. In such a case, one is left with Occam's razor. Is it more likely I'm talking to myself, and there exists nothing on the other claimed transcendent side actually listening? Or, is God listening and deliberately avoiding my countless requests for contact? After over three decades, I had no choice but to reconcile the former.

I personally believe that there is a difference between "belief" and "faith". Belief is a product of knowledge and experience. You cannot choose what you believe or not believe and that only something exterior from yourself (new knowledge or experience) can change your beliefs. So for most skeptics, telling them they have to believe that Jesus is Lord is no different than telling them they must believe that the electronic device you are currently using to read this post doesn't exist. You may truly want to believe that your computer is an illusion, but until some new evidence or experience convinces you otherwise, you can't.

AGREE

Faith, on the other hand, is a product of trust when there is a lack of knowledge or experience. Faith is a choice because you can choose to trust something or someone. The disciple, Thomas is an example of this which is why he is commonly called "Doubting Thomas". The point is that I cannot change your beliefs. The Holy Spirit is the only exterior source of knowledge and experience that can change your beliefs. However, you can choose to trust. I understand your frustration from desperately praying and searching for a God who seems to remain silent. I was there too. However, you can choose to trust that if God really exists, He will reveal Himself to you when the time is right. It may not be now. It may not be 10 years from now. Perhaps he wants to use this period of your life as part of your testimony.

Sounds good

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I am not quire sure if you know this or not, but Leviticus 19:9-18 clearly explains it. Thus, your entire argument on this topic falls flat.

Whenever a group , country, or person does not honor Yahweh and does not understand Scripture, all of their arguments may fall flat, right ?
Scripture is the authority, if anyone rejects Scripture, they have already rejected Yahweh, and have no right arguments. They aren't moral.

 

[cvanwey]

Whenever a group , country, or person does not honor Yahweh and does not understand Scripture, all of their arguments may fall flat, right ?
Scripture is the authority, if anyone rejects Scripture, they have already rejected Yahweh, and have no right arguments. They aren't moral.

Then I guess there are members here, whom claim themselves a Christian, whom are then 'not moral'. You do realize I've conversed with individuals upon this very forum, whom plant the very same claim of a Christian; whom do not think, as you, that the Bible is all 100% 'God inspired' or 'God given/breathed'. But is instead a man written book of accounts. And yet, I doubt any of such Christians will chime in to retort your fallacious statements. No. Instead, it is purely 'us against them' - (Christians verses everyone else); as if all Christians believe the very same thing, which they instead SURELY DON'T

How about instead of going after the ones whom openly doubt or question the many premises, why don't you, along with the other 100's of differing Christian denominations all get together, and hash out (once and for all), the current grave differences in belief, and come to some final consensus/uniformity/conclusion on what IS the truth regarding many claims and statements from the very same passages. And until then, just realize that what you are saying does not even fully resonate with a very large majority of the 'in group' (i.e.) Christians.

 

[Rodan6]

In virtually every measure, the world has become a better place to live IN THE AGGREGATE for the last 200 years at least. Fundamentalists of all stripes (Christian, Jew, Muslim) seem to be entrenched in the notion that the world is going to hell fast.

So, how do you measure morality? What statistics prove that the world is less moral today than even 50 years ago?

Number living in poverty? Starvation? Abortion? Murder? Or is church attendance your only measure?

Outstanding and thoughtful question! Clearly, worldwide social morality HAS advanced. Progress has been slow at times, and sometimes there have been regressions, but the overall trend has been forward. It is my belief that this moral progress is a manifestation of God's will and that NOTHING can or will stop this progress.

I would submit that the common perception that religion and morality are so intricately linked that morality measurement is best achieved with some sort of religious yardstick is wrong. The core of morality is the degree that an individual, a group, a community etc is able to deny themselves. Primitive people were rarely able to truly care for others beyond their own families.

One good way to measure social moral progress is to compare and contrast the status of women in that culture.

Thoughtful questions such as this one deserve far greater attention as we evaluate our own spiritual progress. Religions MUST evolve and progress or eventually the religious community will out grow that faith.

 

[Tolworth John]

a nontheistic society is incapable of showing love?

What is the basis for an atheistic society to show love to others?
That they do is admirable. What in atheistic philosophy tells nontheist to love others?

the commandments themselves are not about love and are terrible, horrible behavioral guidelines if taken at face value.

You really believe that telling people to respect others is 'horrible behaioral guidlines?

Yes they do not tell people to love. Love cannot be commanded, but to fully obey them one has to love.

 

[gaara4158]

What is the basis for an atheistic society to show love to others?
That they do is admirable. What in atheistic philosophy tells nontheist to love others?

The tendency to show love and human solidarity is largely innate, especially within families and ingroups. Besides that, it is perfectly rational for a self-interested nontheist to behave morally.


Where in the 10c does it say to respect others? I see the demand to honor one’s parents, which is problematic if they are dishonorable people. I see rules against coveting your neighbor’s property, including his servants and his wife, but I don’t see any commandment to treat your wife and servants well. And while we’re on the subject of coveting, I take it you’re a communist, then? Because capitalism is founded on people wishing they had things they didn’t have, which is coveting.

 

[Tolworth John]

The tendency to show love and human solidarity is largely innate, especially within families and ingroups

As is the tendancy to believe in the supenatural.

I asked for a rational reason for moral behaviour.

 

[gaara4158]

As is the tendancy to believe in the supenatural.

I asked for a rational reason for moral behaviour.

Sure, but we weren’t taking about that. You had said that atheistic societies would have no reason to show love, and you have yet to demonstrate why that must be true.

I have already explained that a vested interest in one’s own welfare and that of one’s community justifies moral behavior. I can’t give you a reason to care about your own welfare.

 

[Tolworth John]

Sure, but we weren’t taking about that. You had said that atheistic societies would have no reason to show love, and you have yet to demonstrate why that must be true.

I have already explained that a vested interest in one’s own welfare and that of one’s community justifies moral behavior. I can’t give you a reason to care about your own welfare.

Societies do value there immediate members as there is a mutal benefit, but what takes that valuing from ones family or local society to valueing and caring for people one has never met?

That is the influence of something more, I am biased I say that is the influence of Christianity.

Where in the 10c does it say to respect others?

The OT talks about Love with regard to fulfilling the law
Deuteronomy 6:4
4 “Hear, O Israel: [a]The Lord our God, the Lord is one! 5 You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength
Leviticus 19:18
18 “‘Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against anyone among your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the Lord.

 

[gaara4158]

Societies do value there immediate members as there is a mutal benefit, but what takes that valuing from ones family or local society to valueing and caring for people one has never met?

That is the influence of something more, I am biased I say that is the influence of Christianity.

The set of people one has never met and the set of people within one’s society are not mutually exclusive. However, when it comes to people truly removed from one another in nationality, culture, and religion, neither Christianity nor atheism do much to encourage empathy beyond what comes naturally when meeting face to face. Christianity has a long list of people who aren’t allowed in the ingroup. In fact, the Jews believed themselves to be God’s chosen people and therefore their needs superseded those of anyone in their way. Where’s the love and value there?

The OT may describe the 10C as expressions of love, but you’ve chosen to argue that they’re the only path to love. Why?

 

[Steve Petersen]

Would you use these statistics as measures of morality?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

No.
More of mankind's stupidity and wickednesses. (if the statistics are to be accepted as accurate even)

 

[Steve Petersen]

No.
More of mankind's stupidity and wickednesses. (if the statistics are to be accepted as accurate even)

So reducing poverty, child mortality, and increasing education and literacy are stupid and wicked? No wonder people are leaving religion if you can't even the good that humans do.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

So reducing poverty, child mortality, and increasing education and literacy are stupid and wicked? No wonder people are leaving religion if you can't even the good that humans do.

Sorry - all it seems is being done with mis-represented 'spin politic statistics' is mis-representing what is not good as if it were true and right and good.

 

[Steve Petersen]

Sorry - all it seems is being done with mis-represented 'spin politic statistics' is mis-representing what is not good as if it were true and right and good.

Huh?